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      04-21-2014, 09:54 AM   #1
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Engine Knock Increasing

Hey All,
Recently replaced HPFP and throughout most of Saturday was datalogging trying to chase down 'knock retard' and ignition timing pull in 5th gear. Over the course of the day timing pull and 'knock retard' activity gradually crept into all my gears, to the point where now I can't run baseline stage 1 maps, wheras before I had a UT 90 stage 3 on meth running 100% clean.

Here's a quick log showing what I'm talking about.

http://datazap.me/u/uniter/fail-log?...&zoom=442-1050

The other half: http://datazap.me/u/uniter/fail-log?...zoom=1371-1917

AFRs are hitting target and meth is spraying with a conservative amount of timing and boost. What gives?

* New HPFP [last thing we changed]
* Pulled the plugs, all showed some signs of fail, but otherwise good / clean
* Ran backend fuel flash, ran stock backend flash w/ stage 1 'cede maps in addition to last known good combo -> knock and ignition pull
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      04-21-2014, 10:37 AM   #2
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Did this happen out of nowhere? Was there some type of triggering event you can think of? Usually if the car goes from “happy” to “not happy” it’s a straightforward ignition miss, so plugs and/or coils. You certainly aren’t short on octane so that’s not the issue; it isn’t hot out so it isn’t an IAT comp issue. Tough to know without more details.
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      04-21-2014, 02:24 PM   #3
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Just a new HPFP....

Replaced plugs, there's less advance retard now, 4th through 5th on meth hit 15degrees solid.

I'll get the engine hot and work back to 11.8 AFR from 10.5 again.
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      04-21-2014, 04:03 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by uniter View Post
Just a new HPFP....

Replaced plugs, there's less advance retard now, 4th through 5th on meth hit 15degrees solid.

I'll get the engine hot and work back to 11.8 AFR from 10.5 again.
Your fuel trims are virtually identical when spraying meth........are you doing anything special with nozzle locations?
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      04-21-2014, 04:04 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilma View Post
Your fuel trims are virtually identical when spraying meth........are you doing anything special with nozzle locations?
He has a one-off direct port meth plate on the intake mani.

It's pretty sweet, wish DEFIV would mass produce them lol.
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      04-21-2014, 04:07 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 135Pats View Post
He has a one-off direct port meth plate on the intake mani.

It's pretty sweet, wish DEFIV would mass produce them lol.
OOOOOOOOOOOOOHHHHHHH

Anything that avoids that bend in the chargepipe just before the throttle body is a good thing for atomization.
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      04-21-2014, 04:10 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilma View Post
OOOOOOOOOOOOOHHHHHHH

Anything that avoids that bend in the chargepipe just before the throttle body is a good thing for atomization.
Thats what Im sayin

uniter you should be a pal and post a few pictures of it up. Its very, very nice IIRC.

But as to your car pulling out timing and generally just not being happy, thats a tough one. You arent short on octane, you are targeting very rich, and you noted the advance targets are modest. Does the car throw any codes? Or is it just being cranky?
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      04-21-2014, 07:02 PM   #8
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These are 4th gear pulls I just took. From 1k -> 140mph.

http://datazap.me/u/uniter/win-log?l...1-15&mark=2318
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      04-21-2014, 07:03 PM   #9
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I'm not sure if I should worry about that AFR hunt or not.
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      04-21-2014, 07:31 PM   #10
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Quote:
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These are 4th gear pulls I just took. From 1k -> 140mph.

http://datazap.me/u/uniter/win-log?l...1-15&mark=2318
Both those pulls look aggressive but sharp.

Why are you targeting so rich? Just curious.
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      04-21-2014, 09:08 PM   #11
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For the ignition advance.
Also, I'm targeting 11.0 in the DME, but I get between 10.2-11.4 in each run.
When I target 11.5 I get 11.5, not 11.0. I'm not sure how to get it to run 11.0.

So I have two shiny objects to chase:
More boost
or
More lean

What makes more power? I don't have a dyno
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      04-22-2014, 09:20 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by uniter View Post
For the ignition advance.
Also, I'm targeting 11.0 in the DME, but I get between 10.2-11.4 in each run.
When I target 11.5 I get 11.5, not 11.0. I'm not sure how to get it to run 11.0.

So I have two shiny objects to chase:
More boost
or
More lean

What makes more power? I don't have a dyno
Were rapidly reaching the limits of my knowledge regarding tuning with the PROcede and tunerpro, my amateur knowledge is all on the flash/ATR side of the table.

But on paper both leaning it out and more boost can net you more power. Lean is usually fast until things melt hah. Without a dyno though, Id be hesitant to request much more timing than current. Youd be adding more pressure in cylinder for unknown gains.

It makes sense to tune and target rich when you are troubleshooting an aggressive tune like this, but man you are seriously rich. Theres just no need to be down at 10.5-11:1 on this platform. Lean it out to more like 11.5-12:1, Id imagine the car would prefer that at WOT anyways.

Id figure out the fuel/AFR side of things before messing with any more boost or advance. I get scared when people tune for meth as octane/fuel on pump gas, but your setup is obviously a cut above even the nicest CP tapped setups and barring catastrophic flow failure, you should be just fine.
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      05-01-2014, 12:17 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 135Pats View Post
Were rapidly reaching the limits of my knowledge regarding tuning with the PROcede and tunerpro, my amateur knowledge is all on the flash/ATR side of the table.

But on paper both leaning it out and more boost can net you more power. Lean is usually fast until things melt hah. Without a dyno though, Id be hesitant to request much more timing than current. Youd be adding more pressure in cylinder for unknown gains.

It makes sense to tune and target rich when you are troubleshooting an aggressive tune like this, but man you are seriously rich. Theres just no need to be down at 10.5-11:1 on this platform. Lean it out to more like 11.5-12:1, Id imagine the car would prefer that at WOT anyways.

Id figure out the fuel/AFR side of things before messing with any more boost or advance. I get scared when people tune for meth as octane/fuel on pump gas, but your setup is obviously a cut above even the nicest CP tapped setups and barring catastrophic flow failure, you should be just fine.
Latest dyno attached. 12.5 target, 400HP/460FTLBs. I can probably get more out, but for that I need to sink 800$ into a dyno day.

http://datazap.me/u/uniter/400460-me...0&zoom=185-496

Log for the run.
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      05-01-2014, 01:07 PM   #14
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I would have expected a good deal more WHP, but numbers are just that. No two dynos read alike so whatever. I bet that feels very strong on the road.

Aggressive but nothing crazy. Especially with the quality if your methanol delivery, everything looks sharp to me man.
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      05-01-2014, 01:24 PM   #15
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HP I feel like there's 50 in there waiting to be let loose during a dyno session.... Just not worth it until I go single.
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      05-01-2014, 09:37 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by uniter View Post
Latest dyno attached. 12.5 target, 400HP/460FTLBs. I can probably get more out, but for that I need to sink 800$ into a dyno day.

Log for the run.
So other than the custom port injection.....is the rest of your meth kit based on Vishnu PWM?

Also....are you running pump and meth only or some E85 as well.....because those timing numbers are outstanding.
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      05-02-2014, 08:54 AM   #17
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Quote:
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So other than the custom port injection.....is the rest of your meth kit based on Vishnu PWM?

Also....are you running pump and meth only or some E85 as well.....because those timing numbers are outstanding.
Illma: Correct, it's Vishnu PWM, but without the chargepipe.

The meth mix is 25/75 there's no e85 just 93 oct.
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      05-02-2014, 09:48 AM   #18
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Distribution of meth must be outstanding...that timing curve is as clean as any i've seen....ever, on this platform.

Couldn't draw it up better.
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      05-02-2014, 09:54 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by uniter View Post
Illma: Correct, it's Vishnu PWM, but without the chargepipe.

The meth mix is 25/75 there's no e85 just 93 oct.
That's pretty impressive

I like that your fuel trims are a bit on the negative side.......the way I look at it, if the DME is pulling out pump gas with the negative trims - the proportion of meth in the combustion chamber will be greater than if your trims were flat.

My setup is very similar to yours, but I only seem to be able to hold about 8* of timing in the midrange ramping up to 12* approaching 6K rpm. You have about 6* more advance than I do in the midrange there

I'm depressed now.
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      05-02-2014, 11:15 AM   #20
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Quote:
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That's pretty impressive

I like that your fuel trims are a bit on the negative side.......the way I look at it, if the DME is pulling out pump gas with the negative trims - the proportion of meth in the combustion chamber will be greater than if your trims were flat.

My setup is very similar to yours, but I only seem to be able to hold about 8* of timing in the midrange ramping up to 12* approaching 6K rpm. You have about 6* more advance than I do in the midrange there

I'm depressed now.
Pump gas "underneath" the meth for you? Or ethanol?
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      05-02-2014, 01:20 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 135Pats
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilma View Post
That's pretty impressive

I like that your fuel trims are a bit on the negative side.......the way I look at it, if the DME is pulling out pump gas with the negative trims - the proportion of meth in the combustion chamber will be greater than if your trims were flat.

My setup is very similar to yours, but I only seem to be able to hold about 8* of timing in the midrange ramping up to 12* approaching 6K rpm. You have about 6* more advance than I do in the midrange there

I'm depressed now.
Pump gas "underneath" the meth for you? Or ethanol?
Regular pump.

No E85 available
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      05-02-2014, 01:50 PM   #22
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Quote:
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if the DME is pulling out pump gas with the negative trims - the proportion of meth in the combustion chamber will be greater than if your trims were flat.


The proportion of gas in the cylinder will never change per RPM @ X PSI boost, assuming constant conditions.

Remember that trims are corrections for fuel volume to hit target AFRs. You could have zero trims right now and bump up the fuel scaler in your flash, and you will have negative trims. That is the DME compensating for a higher HPFP pressure @ learned IPW (LTFT) so you will effectively have the same volume of gasoline to meth.

If you want a higher ratio of meth, get bigger nozzles
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