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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > N54 Turbo Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications - 335i > tuners-How long til 500whp??



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      11-25-2007, 10:46 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by *****ed335BMW View Post
No one knows the true answer........they can give you estimates (which could be wrong), but you guys are def asking people that haven't even done those mods or even tuned those turbos on the car yet.
There should be a formula for fuel requirements and the stock fuel system limits should already be known...
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      11-25-2007, 11:14 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by rideelement247 View Post
Well, you asked if 500whp is attainable, so I guess I will give you the answer you DESIRE: yes.

If you can drop crazy amounts of money by telling a custom fab shop "hi, I don't know much, just give it 500whp, money is no object", then you could probably see results in days. That is, if you have enough money to buy a shop, all its workers, all its tools, pay them off to drop all other projects, etc.. for how long it takes them to figure out how to rework your car.

People on here weren't bashing you for wanting 500whp, hell we all do. They were just advising you upgrade suspension, etc. so that your car remains safe. Imagine having 500whp and going WOT from a redlight into the nearest tree. Not too helpful without supporting mods keeping you going a straight line.

And others were giving you a time frame so that you can have somewhat of an idea of when companies are going to produce things to get you that 500whp mark. It will probably be next year. The engine is probably built to endure the extra stress, but you might need stronger pistons, and DEF. bigger injectors to handle the load. No bolt-on is going to produce that much power on this car without someone getting down and dirty and working it out, which involves the unfortunate possibility of blowing an engine. No one who owns a car for ~1 year, wants it destroyed like that. So people are going to rework the turbos, dial up boost a little bit at a time, then when knock occurs, deliver more fuel via software or injectors, the up boost again, etc. It take a lot of time and work to get this increase in horsepower...you can't just up your boost to 35psi, hoping for 500whp. Look at shiv, he had to write software working and reworking on boost levels, timing, etc. to provide power and stability.

I am completely aware that this will take time. I didn't say today or tomorrow. I'd prefer consistent long term R&D. I never said that I WOULDN'T upgrade other parts of the car. As I said in other replys, that goes without saying.

Shiv, thanks for answering the question straight up.
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      11-26-2007, 05:35 AM   #47
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whats the highest proven HP 335i out there at the moment?


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      11-26-2007, 10:09 AM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wahoo View Post
What qualities are you speaking of that won't
be present when 500whp is obtained?
Look, after reading at least 3 prior reponses of yours railing against those that dare say 500whp might not be a great idea, I'm not entirely convinced this isn't a loaded question. Bottom line, do whatever you want with your car... makes NO difference at all to me. You find it funny that people spend a lot on asthetic mods, which I kinda do as well. But what I personally find funny are the people that go out and buy a 335i and then worry about shaving weight, removing seats, adding carbon fiber everywhere, AND extracting the most HP possible out of the car all while taking it further and further away from being an "sport-luxury grand tourer." It's my personal opinion that it's not a good platform for that.

But to answer your obviously loaded question, I think that by the time someone is able to hit 500whp in the 335i, it will mean much larger exhaust piping (downpipes on back) which means a much louder exhaust note. It will mean drastic changes in timing and fuel which will likely result in a much rougher idle. It will mean changes in turbo size which will mean a much more pronounced lag. And it will definitely mean a decreased reliability in almost every moving part. Like I said in my original post, I know several former Evo owners that took what was a decently comfortable and decently quick car, and modded it so much that although it was blisteringly fast, it was no longer fun to drive on a daily basis. And to me, the Evo is much more "raw" than the BMW is.

I believe the 'stealthiness' of the 335i.. the quiet car that can sneak up on a person and blow their doors off, all while being civil and refiend enough to impress your non-car enthusiast wife or co-workers when going out for a nice dinner, and while being comfortable enough for taking the family on a road trip...will be greatly compromised if you quest for 500whp. I think the M3 is more suited for those interested in a track beast that can be tolerated as a daily driver.

But it's your car. Dowhatchalike.
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      11-26-2007, 10:37 AM   #49
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Quote:
Look, after reading at least 3 prior reponses of yours railing against those that dare say 500whp might not be a great idea, I'm not entirely convinced this isn't a loaded question. Bottom line, do whatever you want with your car... makes NO difference at all to me. You find it funny that people spend a lot on asthetic mods, which I kinda do as well. But what I personally find funny are the people that go out and buy a 335i and then worry about shaving weight, removing seats, adding carbon fiber everywhere, AND extracting the most HP possible out of the car all while taking it further and further away from being an "sport-luxury grand tourer." It's my personal opinion that it's not a good platform for that.

But to answer your obviously loaded question, I think that by the time someone is able to hit 500whp in the 335i, it will mean much larger exhaust piping (downpipes on back) which means a much louder exhaust note. It will mean drastic changes in timing and fuel which will likely result in a much rougher idle. It will mean changes in turbo size which will mean a much more pronounced lag. And it will definitely mean a decreased reliability in almost every moving part. Like I said in my original post, I know several former Evo owners that took what was a decently comfortable and decently quick car, and modded it so much that although it was blisteringly fast, it was no longer fun to drive on a daily basis. And to me, the Evo is much more "raw" than the BMW is.

I believe the 'stealthiness' of the 335i.. the quiet car that can sneak up on a person and blow their doors off, all while being civil and refiend enough to impress your non-car enthusiast wife or co-workers when going out for a nice dinner, and while being comfortable enough for taking the family on a road trip...will be greatly compromised if you quest for 500whp. I think the M3 is more suited for those interested in a track beast that can be tolerated as a daily driver.

But it's your car. Dowhatchalike
First for noise, put some high flow cats in the down pipes and that should help. YOu will not need any bigger than 2.5 inch piping for the dual exhaust to hit 500 whp. Yes it will require change in timing etc, but with a good tune the idle should not be that bad im my opinion. With the tt set up, and maybe slighlty bigger snails , the lag should not be that bad at all. An evo modded up is running on one huge snail with a 4 cylnder, and only a 2.0. That calls for boost not kicking in to maybe 5000 rpm or higher, talk about lag. The tt will not be like that.

To answer the guys question, 500 whp can be hit as soon as someone puts a slightly bigger snail into thier car, and tunes it right. Yes it will take alot of tuning and money though.

Chris
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      11-26-2007, 11:07 AM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArmyBimmerDude View Post
The N54 isn't as strong as the 2JZ-GTE. I think it can handle 500whp, but thats where I stop and let the guinea pigs test and break their engines before I do anything like that.
According to this site, we do not even have forged internals. The pistons are magnesium lined cast pistons, which I have zero experience with, so this is nothing more than speculation on what this engine can hold. Why all the "I think this engine can handle 500 rwhp" without providing some technical reasons to why? Look, I am curious too, but I don't know the answers to this question. There are a lot of things from pistons, rings, rods, bolts, that can break and everyone would probably leave your pocket dry. We also don't know if we will need to upgrade fuel pump, injectors, fuel rail, etc. When it comes to power estimates it seems like "we just don't know what this engine can handle" is the only reasonable response.
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      11-26-2007, 11:15 AM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
450whp seems absolutely do-able with factory turbos. As others have said, 500whp may be a stretch without bigger snails.

shiv
i agreed with you.. you need to upgrade either Garette gt2960r (dual) or Gt35rs.. price for those upgrade turbo would be around 2500.
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      11-26-2007, 11:16 AM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wahoo View Post
Ok, ok...I realize this somewhat academic but how long til we see 500whp? I'm not interested in the 'Isn't xxx enough? Or you need to upgrade the clutch, etc. What I want to know is how long before somewhat shoots for this and makes it happen.

Shiv, Terry, AA, etc. - what is the current limitation? Is our current development limited before you all go into the internals?

There are obvious components that need to be upgraded but in my mind, the further this platform is pushed, the opportunity for BMW to continue push the envelope.

The M looks to be a great machine, but in my mind the tt platform is where BMW will close the gap on Porsche. A 500whp 335xi could make me forget (temporarily) of a 997tt. BMW missed their mark by continuing to cram more and more weight into the M. I love the 8 cylinder concept but it simply doesn't make enough torque off the line in all the initial tests - it does seem to shine in the upper range...exactly where a daily driver doesn't need it.

If protomotive where to get involved with the development of the 335i I can only imagine what would happen in the tuning wars.

check out some of my posted regarding to your inquiring..

check this out

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=94024
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      11-26-2007, 11:18 AM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Former_Boosted_IS View Post
According to this site, we do not even have forged internals. The pistons are magnesium lined cast pistons, which I have zero experience with, so this is nothing more than speculation on what this engine can hold. Why all the "I think this engine can handle 500 rwhp" without providing some technical reasons to why? Look, I am curious too, but I don't know the answers to this question. There are a lot of things from pistons, rings, rods, bolts, that can break and everyone would probably leave your pocket dry. We also don't know if we will need to upgrade fuel pump, injectors, fuel rail, etc. When it comes to power estimates it seems like "we just don't know what this engine can handle" is the only reasonable response.

Hey I hear you man. Whenever someone says something like "The Supra's engine was a TT inline 6, so that means our engine can make the same power" I laugh inside. Different engines from different times. You dont have to worry about adding power with the 2JZ cause a) you know its limits and b) it was made to be damn near indestructible. No one knows the deal with the N54. Until someone figures out the fuel issue, it's not going to happen.
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      11-26-2007, 11:33 AM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArmyBimmerDude View Post
Hey I hear you man. Whenever someone says something like "The Supra's engine was a TT inline 6, so that means our engine can make the same power" I laugh inside. Different engines from different times. You dont have to worry about adding power with the 2JZ cause a) you know its limits and b) it was made to be damn near indestructible. No one knows the deal with the N54. Until someone figures out the fuel issue, it's not going to happen.
YOU CANT REALLY COMPARE TOYOTA SUPRA VS BMW 335I.. USUALLY BMW ALREADY TUNNED TO THE MAX ... LOOK AT THE SUPRA ENGINE AND CHASSIS HOOD.. YOU HAVE ALOT OF ROOM TO MESS AROUND .. IN BMW IT DOES NOT HAVE MUCH SPACE TO GIVE U TO TAMPER WITH.. THE MATERIAL THAT MADE UP THE N54, IT IS NOT STRONG ENOUGH

WHAT U CAN DO TO 335I ID DROP BIGGER SIDE ENGINE( M5) BUT WITH ALOT OF MODIFY TO IT, THE M5 HAVE STRONG MATERIAL ON THE ENGINE. YOU CAN HAVE IT BORE AND PISTON MODIFY WITHOUT ANY ISSUE. FUEL MAKE ALOT OF DIFFERENT. HOWEVER IT IS ONLY SOFTWARE CONTROL. IF YOU ARE USING NOS, YOU ALSO CHANGE FUEL SYSTEM AND OTHER STUFFS.
I WOULD DO CUSTOM UPGRADE ON TURBO. HOWEVER, I M WAITTING FOR VISHNU TO TUNE THEIR MAP FOR TURBO UGPRADE ..
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      11-26-2007, 11:34 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by ArmyBimmerDude View Post
Hey I hear you man. Whenever someone says something like "The Supra's engine was a TT inline 6, so that means our engine can make the same power" I laugh inside. Different engines from different times. You dont have to worry about adding power with the 2JZ cause a) you know its limits and b) it was made to be damn near indestructible. No one knows the deal with the N54. Until someone figures out the fuel issue, it's not going to happen.
YOU CANT REALLY COMPARE TOYOTA SUPRA VS BMW 335I.. USUALLY BMW ALREADY TUNNED TO THE MAX ... LOOK AT THE SUPRA ENGINE(STRONGER MATERIAL METAL) AND CHASSIS HOOD.. YOU HAVE ALOT OF ROOM TO MESS AROUND .. IN BMW IT DOES NOT HAVE MUCH SPACE TO GIVE U TO TAMPER WITH.. THE MATERIAL THAT MADE UP THE N54, IT IS NOT STRONG ENOUGH

WHAT U CAN DO TO 335I ID DROP BIGGER SIDE ENGINE( M5) BUT WITH ALOT OF MODIFY TO IT, THE M5 HAVE STRONG MATERIAL ON THE ENGINE. YOU CAN HAVE IT BORE AND PISTON MODIFY WITHOUT ANY ISSUE. FUEL MAKE ALOT OF DIFFERENT. HOWEVER IT IS ONLY SOFTWARE CONTROL. IF YOU ARE USING NOS, YOU ALSO CHANGE FUEL SYSTEM AND OTHER STUFFS.
I WOULD DO CUSTOM UPGRADE ON TURBO. HOWEVER, I M WAITTING FOR VISHNU TO TUNE THEIR MAP FOR TURBO UGPRADE ..
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      11-26-2007, 11:37 AM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LACA335i View Post
YOU CANT REALLY COMPARE TOYOTA SUPRA VS BMW 335I.. USUALLY BMW ALREADY TUNNED TO THE MAX ... LOOK AT THE SUPRA ENGINE(STRONGER MATERIAL METAL) AND CHASSIS HOOD.. YOU HAVE ALOT OF ROOM TO MESS AROUND .. IN BMW IT DOES NOT HAVE MUCH SPACE TO GIVE U TO TAMPER WITH.. THE MATERIAL THAT MADE UP THE N54, IT IS NOT STRONG ENOUGH

WHAT U CAN DO TO 335I ID DROP BIGGER SIDE ENGINE( M5) BUT WITH ALOT OF MODIFY TO IT, THE M5 HAVE STRONG MATERIAL ON THE ENGINE. YOU CAN HAVE IT BORE AND PISTON MODIFY WITHOUT ANY ISSUE. FUEL MAKE ALOT OF DIFFERENT. HOWEVER IT IS ONLY SOFTWARE CONTROL. IF YOU ARE USING NOS, YOU ALSO CHANGE FUEL SYSTEM AND OTHER STUFFS.
I WOULD DO CUSTOM UPGRADE ON TURBO. HOWEVER, I M WAITTING FOR VISHNU TO TUNE THEIR MAP FOR TURBO UGPRADE ..
Dude take the caps lock off. You're scaring me...

Seriously though, I'm not doing anything turbo changes till the warranty runs out if that. Everything about this car costs too much to be playing with your warranty.
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      11-26-2007, 11:39 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by ArmyBimmerDude View Post
Dude take the caps lock off. You're scaring me...
sorry ... i m lazy to take it out.. mah bad.. i did not mean to scare u dude. damn scary cat
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      11-26-2007, 11:40 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by ArmyBimmerDude View Post
Dude take the caps lock off. You're scaring me...

Seriously though, I'm not doing anything turbo changes till the warranty runs out if that. Everything about this car costs too much to be playing with your warranty.
i would agreed with you..
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      11-26-2007, 11:41 AM   #59
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sorry ... i m lazy to take it out.. mah bad.. i did not mean to scare u dude. damn scary cat
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      11-26-2007, 11:55 AM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dxb335d View Post
whats the highest proven HP 335i out there at the moment?


Carlos


can anyone answer this??? the question quoted


also at what point is a bigger I/C needed? how much boost can the stock H/G and piston and rods take?


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      11-26-2007, 11:58 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by dxb335d View Post
whats the highest proven HP 335i out there at the moment?


Carlos
We made 417hp and 440lbft of torque at the wheels (on a Dynojet) a few weeks back. I haven't heard of any bigger numbers but its certainly possible.

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      11-26-2007, 12:32 PM   #62
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We made 417hp and 440lbft of torque at the wheels (on a Dynojet) a few weeks back. I haven't heard of any bigger numbers but its certainly possible.

Shiv
But arent we only getting 7/10 of that?
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      11-26-2007, 12:33 PM   #63
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But arent we only getting 7/10 of that?
For now, yeah. But that map will be available eventually. Just needs more testing/shake down.

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      11-26-2007, 12:39 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
For now, yeah. But that map will be available eventually. Just needs more testing/shake down.

Shiv
Awesome.
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      11-26-2007, 01:05 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
For now, yeah. But that map will be available eventually. Just needs more testing/shake down.

Shiv
That is fantastic, hopefully with V2/93 octane, and otherwise stuck we will be at 400whp :confuse d0068:
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      11-26-2007, 01:08 PM   #66
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That is fantastic, hopefully with V2/93 octane, and otherwise stuck we will be at 400whp :confuse d0068:
in california we dont have 96 octane.. .. suck !!!
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