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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > N55 Turbo Engine Tuning and Exhaust Modifications - 335i Tuning > VTT N55 DBB Stage 2 update



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      06-13-2014, 12:19 PM   #23
divisionbell77
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Originally Posted by JETmn View Post
There have also been changes to that Stage 1 unit, so you are comparing an obsolete part to a current part. There have also been dynos showing 40+ whp gains for the current stage 1. I don't think you realize how many people you drive away from your business because of your ethics or lack thereof. Your main 3 competitors all handle themselves very well in public.
I see him handling you well. You clearly are the aggressor here.
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      06-13-2014, 01:42 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by divisionbell77
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Originally Posted by JETmn View Post
There have also been changes to that Stage 1 unit, so you are comparing an obsolete part to a current part. There have also been dynos showing 40+ whp gains for the current stage 1. I don't think you realize how many people you drive away from your business because of your ethics or lack thereof. Your main 3 competitors all handle themselves very well in public.
I see him handling you well. You clearly are the aggressor here.
Fact is the pure turbo stage 1 terry tested some months ago has received updates. So actually he is right.
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      06-13-2014, 01:56 PM   #25
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Fact is the pure turbo stage 1 terry tested some months ago has received updates. So actually he is right.
As previously stated, the version shown is still offered. People asked for graphs, I posted up graphs and explained what was being seen in the graphs. That someone can say comparing a stage 1 to a stage 2 turbo is pointless is actually quite surprising to us, as most people want to be armed with all the facts on upgrades when they are making their decision to buy. If we had a graph on the "new" version I would have posted that as well, as I can promise you you are going to pick up power in the upper rev band as with the first version as their is no magic way to get around the undersized turbine.
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      06-13-2014, 02:04 PM   #26
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If we had a graph on the "new" version I would have posted that as well
I have all 3 graphs from Terry's car, the shop car, and Darkhold's car posted on the first page of my thread, the shop car uses the V2. I feel that would be a more fair comparison as they appear to be no longer shipping V1's (why anyone would buy a V1 over a V2 is beyond me since they're the same price).
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      06-13-2014, 02:06 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by hetzle View Post
I have all 3 graphs from Terry's car, the shop car, and Darkhold's car posted on the first page of my thread, the shop car uses the V2. I feel that would be a more fair comparison as they appear to be no longer shipping V1's (why anyone would buy a V1 over a V2 is beyond me since they're the same price).
Send it to me I will gladly post it, no stage 1 will come close to doing what our DBB Stage 2 does, people interested in this upgrade wanted to see the graphs for that purpose.
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      06-13-2014, 02:11 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by Vargasturbotech
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Originally Posted by hetzle View Post
I have all 3 graphs from Terry's car, the shop car, and Darkhold's car posted on the first page of my thread, the shop car uses the V2. I feel that would be a more fair comparison as they appear to be no longer shipping V1's (why anyone would buy a V1 over a V2 is beyond me since they're the same price).
Send it to me I will gladly post it, no stage 1 will come close to doing what our DBB Stage 2 does, people interested in this upgrade wanted to see the graphs for that purpose.
Tony nobody ever said a stage1 compares to stage2. I think you should make a choice here on budget. Ofcourse stage 2 is superior to stage 1.
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      06-13-2014, 02:11 PM   #29
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Send it to me I will gladly post it, no stage 1 will come close to doing what our DBB Stage 2 does, people interested in this upgrade wanted to see the graphs for that purpose.
I agree with you 100%, a $1k turbo should definitely get killed in performance by a $3.5k one. Yours is absolutely the more powerful option. Sent anyway in the interest of fairness.
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      06-13-2014, 02:13 PM   #30
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I also want to add in all fairness that we have not seen graphs of a stage2 on F series car where tuning is limited to jb4 and no backend flash.
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      06-13-2014, 02:37 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkhold View Post
I also want to add in all fairness that we have not seen graphs of a stage2 on F series car where tuning is limited to jb4 and no backend flash.
Lack of tuning does not mean the there is anything lacking with the turbocharger, turbochargers are rated at what they can support with proper fueling and tuning, if someone wants to run 91 pump fuel and a conservative tune or no tuning is available, they will see a lot less power than someone running pump / meth / E85 and an aggressive tune. This has nothing to do with the turbo and everything to do with the other elements involved. Upgrading to a stage 1 just means, if you ever want more than a 50 or so WHP gain you will be pulling it back off and upgrading again. We actually should have some graphs soon as these have be installed on a few F series cars.
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      06-13-2014, 02:38 PM   #32
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Tony nobody ever said a stage1 compares to stage2. I think you should make a choice here on budget. Ofcourse stage 2 is superior to stage 1.
Nor did we say it, we are just giving the N55 community the information they need to be informed on what kind of power you can support with each option, also we have no added the V2 graph, which honestly needs some work on the tune.
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      06-13-2014, 03:43 PM   #33
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Thank you for updating the graphs!
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      06-13-2014, 04:50 PM   #34
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Thank you for updating the graphs!
Yes, nicely done Tony. I didn't expect you would post the graph since you have had issues in other threads. Keep this up and you might win a few of us back over.
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      06-13-2014, 08:47 PM   #35
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Tony so the 1000rpm loss of power on the stage 1, do you think that'll hurt performance or will the increase up to "make up" for that loss.. on the graph it doesn't look like much..
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      06-13-2014, 11:02 PM   #36
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Tony so the 1000rpm loss of power on the stage 1, do you think that'll hurt performance or will the increase up to "make up" for that loss.. on the graph it doesn't look like much..
Honestly we tested the upgrade on an F series car and had full spool by 2900RPM, I think with some more tuning the bottom end will be even better, for what you gain up top, its worth the slight loss down low.
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      06-14-2014, 08:12 AM   #37
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Very simplly showing the differences in gains you can expect between the two, most people want to be armed with this information when making a decision on which upgrade to choose. It has been said many times now, if you want to run pump fuel only (91 or 93) it is not worth getting a turbo upgrade, the gains you will see are minimal as you will not have the octane to run the boost and timing required to make power. On 91 only you most likely cannot even max out the stock turbo.
That's a bull statement. The injectors can more than supply enough fuel for more boost on pump. It's all in the tune and how well you design a turbo to be efficient at much higher psi. Our turbos run out of breath at more than 15psi only because the air gets too hot and the turbo is no longer efficient. Make a turbo that is efficient at the higher boost levels. If you can't do that, then not sure if you should be in the turbo business.
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      06-15-2014, 04:09 PM   #38
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That's a bull statement. The injectors can more than supply enough fuel for more boost on pump. It's all in the tune and how well you design a turbo to be efficient at much higher psi. Our turbos run out of breath at more than 15psi only because the air gets too hot and the turbo is no longer efficient. Make a turbo that is efficient at the higher boost levels. If you can't do that, then not sure if you should be in the turbo business.
No sir it is not a bull statement at all. It has nothing to do with fuel flow, the injectors can actually supply enough fuel to support well over 1000WHP, does that anything to do with what you can make? Of course it does not it has to do with how much you can support if are running enough octane to support those power levels, if you do not have the octane you cannot make the power, you turn up the boost, and timing to take advantage of the bigger turbos and on 91 you detonate and the car will just pull the timing and boost you just put in to protect itself. This is not a new theory, every single platform on earth has the same limits, the N54/55 can actually make more power on pump due to its direct injection. But the statement the injectors can provide enough fuel is completely wrong. Now lets move on the very obvious lack of turbocharger understanding here, sure when pushing a very small turbo very hard, the air indeed does get heated up quickly making the it much less dense meaning you can make less power from it, this is why we run upgraded intercooler to cool this charge and also why meth will net you much more power, not only does meth bump up the octane rating of whatever fuel you are running, it also cools the intake charge or the air coming from the turbo making it possible to again run more timing and boost, and in turn make more power. The reason the stock turbos runs out of breath up top is because the small turbine wheel gets choked down with back pressure, this ends the fun as if you can't move exhaust flow efficiently past the turbine you can make no more power. We do appreciate the post, but it flys in the face of very common turbocharger / and thermal dynamic knowledge. I hope this explanation will help people understand why you cannot make a lot of power on crappy 91 pump gas with a woefully undersized stock turbo. We tell the same thing to people on the N54 who want to run pump and upgrade to stage 2, either run meth, or run E85 because on pump you are wasting your money on the upgrade.
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      06-15-2014, 07:40 PM   #39
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Vargas, you should think about getting someone that went to college to proofread your posts before you submit. I expect bad grammar and spelling from the sideways baseball cap teenage nutswingers that hang out here but if you want to be taken seriously as a professional in a technical field, learn to use the language properly. It would go at least part of the way toward fixing your image problem around here.
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      06-15-2014, 09:53 PM   #40
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      06-16-2014, 10:21 AM   #41
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Can people just ban Vargas from all forums? That would reduce a lot of blood pressure.
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      06-16-2014, 10:56 AM   #42
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Oh yea, brilliant idea...let's ban the only guy making upgraded turbo's for our platforms

I actually enjoy reading his posts, very informative and also interesting to see and learn more about DI and turbo technologies (and the struggle with power on the n55).
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      06-16-2014, 11:12 AM   #43
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I think the guy knows his stuff, if you say it in plain English, no need for fancy lawyer's English. Has vergas screwed any of the forum member here financially or a product not delivered correctly? I am curious.
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      06-16-2014, 12:17 PM   #44
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I think the guy knows his stuff, if you say it in plain English, no need for fancy lawyer's English. Has vergas screwed any of the forum member here financially or a product not delivered correctly? I am curious.
I just can't trust a turbo lesson from someone that uses commas instead of periods and constantly acts like a 12 year old. Sorry. haha.
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