Quote:
Originally Posted by bNks334
It's amazing. This all started because I called you, and others, out on the misleading statements.
Then you, and others, tried to deflect the situation by placing the burden on ME, the customer, to prove to YOU, the VENDOR, that the statements you were making were BS in the real world.
It's absolutely ridiculous. So is the tuning situation. We pay top dollar for inferior tunes compared to other platforms.
What's even more ridiculous is that you have vendors stating that one intercooler is recommended over another, that one intercooler is higher quality than another, but they provide NO basis for saying so. You call them out on it and all the sudden "there is no conclusive data." No shit, so stop making unsupported claims... that's the goal here, not to prove one intercooler is better than another.
I appreciated your post because you finally posted some numbers. Congrats.
However, those logs are useless to me in regard to my comparison. I can't verify anything from those logs. I found your geographical location to be jersey. It looks like you gave the ambient temps from looking back at historical data of the daily high. That's about the only thing I can verify in regard to those logs and your cars mods. You also short shift your car in those logs before your turbo's start really blowing hot air. You are also N54, not very comparable to my N55 logs seeing as how you have 2 turbos that together can achieve greater airflow with less heat byproduct. Look back to post #249 where someone posted logs showing almost the same data as you. Turns out his numbers were misleading and not comparable AT ALL. Did you forget about that already? His oil temps were a dead giveaway that his car was cold. I could even prove, with the same cars logs, that the ETS intercooler, once actually hot (heatsoaked from real world hard driving), performs damn near the same as all the other 5" offerings (marginally better actually, but is the price tag worth it? it's a 25lb hunk of aluminum).
Thanks for bringing "controls" up once again. The controls are everything I've stated already. I presented logs showing similar ambient, similar heat-soak (actual HOT cars), similar loads, similar turbo's (N55), and similar altitudes (all the cities where data was taken from were all pretty much sea-level - compare barometric pressure if you want to).
If you want to say there are no controls to what I am presenting then so be it, but I think the numbers speak volumes.
The tuners have said it themselves. You are splitting hairs when it comes to which intercooler is best. On a stock turbo they pretty much all do the same thing once heat-soaked from performance driving. At the end of the day, the differences are MARGINAL.
This isn't a debate over the ETS intercoolers performance. I apologize for this devolving into something way more complicated than it really is... which was to point out that the statements being made are clearly being made to steer people away from cheaper alternatives (biased).
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The ONLY point of my post was to prove that an ETS 5" intercooler can have temps within 5 degrees or less then ambient in certain conditions, which was in direct responses to a previous remark you made.
It was also to show how without controlled data or understanding every aspect of how the data was achieved, not everything will be transparent.
-How long was a I driving the car for?
-Did I hang out in traffic before the pull?
-Were there any red lights before the pull?
-Was the vehicle on previously during the day or fist time of the day?
-Was the pull done after it was warmed up, parked and then immediately brought onto an open stretch of road?
There are plenty more scenarios that can alter the data...
However, the best part of my data was it was unplanned to prove my point, which was having less then 5 degree ambients at the start of the pull.
So to discredit it in anyway is laughable as all I had to do is grab my last 2 logs from several months ago to prove my point. So, yea, it's repeatable to say the least.
I'm sure I could also conjure up a scenario where it may be 20 degrees above ambient if I heat soak the snot out of it sitting at red lights or in a parking lot and then go do a pull with no time for air flow to pull out some heat.
But what would that prove?
Which goes back to my original point of control.... which I will keep harping on because your original data posted with all those different FMIC logs did not have. We have absolutely no idea the conditions those cars were in.
If you want to scrutinize it for reasons that the post had no intention of proving, so be it, it's the internet and forums after all so no one is ever satisfied and will always knit pick irrelevant details.
Just like you keep wanting to knit pick the details I've presented, I can do the same to every other post in this thread, including yours.
Where will it get us?
Likely no where. I'll mention the same thing I've said before, if the intercooler you have works for you, GREAT. BUT, don't try to convince people it's worthy where you have not ever compared something else on your personal vehicle with controlled data. Other peoples data can be manipulated and won't always be transparent. 4500 FT elevation in one log you posted is in no way a fair comparison or fair data against other intercoolers (as one exampl).
Also where I shift is not short shifting on an N54. Anyone who is anyone shifts around 6200RPM on this vehicle. There is no point over-working the turbo's to reach 7K. Again, the datalog was a typical datalog and typical pull on this vehicle. The data log was made several months ago had no intention of proving the point it proved yesterday but it still in fact did. (Within 5 degrees ambient at start of pull).
Not comparable being N55? PS, we are in the N54 section of the forum LOL
Post 249? Never saw it and no I don't read every last post in a 13 page thread LOL
If anyone wants to offer supportive data and comparison, keep the conditions as close to the same as possible and just change FMIC, it's that simple of a point.
If you want to find out if another intercooler is worthy of upgrading, you're going to have to go out and buy it and compare for yourself. Then when you find out the new one is worth it, sell the old. The used market is always looking for a gently used FMIC to get them in the game. Most intercoolers are better then stock.
I chose the ETS because it is the BEST 5" (non stepped FMIC). I do know in fact that there are other better intercoolers, which will also be bigger in size by no accident.