[picus]

Originally Posted by 18LLC

do you really have to take it so personally? i don't see anything wrong for doing car wash. he is making clean money.

Thanks, but don't sweat it. All he knows about me is what I tell him. I was privileged enough to go to a fantastic school and worked as a computer engineer for years before I decided I wanted to detail full time.

[dme330i]

Originally Posted by Zeroday

I'm done. I've said my peace.

Dude, you're coming off as the dumbass here. The guy clearly knows, from experience, what he's talking about.

The reason that picture looks so blurry is from the orange peel. Look at the reflection on the windshield (clearly not blurry), then look at the hood. The hood clearly has orange peel, thus making the picture look blurry.

[picus]

This is ridiculous. I didn't insult you first, I corrected you and you had a fit. Now you're PM'ing me to insult me? Jesus, grow up. Is there a way to ignore users on this board?

[picus]

Originally Posted by Zeroday

Trying to stir things up again are you? Listen moron (since we're calling each other names now), I didn't make a big issue of the peel. From some of those photos I do see what could be slight peel but honestly the pics are not very clear. I took issue with him correcting me on Ferrari's tolerance for paint depth variance. He is wrong and the video I posted proves that.

I never said they do not use a PTG I said they do not repaint for variances less than 50 microns, since I have seen more than one Ferrari with variances of 50 microns. 50 microns is the thickness of the paint on 4 normal cars, so I would say that is a significant variance.

You're trying to pontificate about something you know nothing about and it serves no purpose other than to start arguments. All you're doing is spreading misinformation, which is detrimental to everyone on this forum.

[Zeroday]

Originally Posted by picus

I never said they do not use a PTG I said they do not repaint for variances less than 50 microns, since I have seen more than one Ferrari with variances of 50 microns. 50 microns is the thickness of the paint on 4 normal cars, so I would say that is a significant variance.

You're trying to pontificate about something you know nothing about and it serves no purpose other than to start arguments. All you're doing is spreading misinformation, which is detrimental to everyone on this forum.

Pot/Kettle/black. Washing a bunch of Ferraris doesn't make you an expert on their factory paint processes. For all you know, the cars you measured could have been repainted or simply slipped through Ferrari QA. I simply stated that they test for paint thickness, and you said 'no' and subsequently began to backpedal .

[picus]

I wonder what the odds are that every single Ferrari I've worked on has been a repaint? Probably not very good. Backpedaled? You said they tested for thickness and I said

Originally Posted by picus

A variance of 200 microns? Maybe. A variance of 30 microns? No. I've yet to work on a single Ferrari *ever* that didn't have at least a 10-30 micron variation in the paint from panel to panel. As for what constitutes "huge" on almost every factory painted mass produced car I've worked on, most have a variance of between 0.1 and 0.5 microns, so 30 would be 60-300x more variance.

That doesn't sound like backpedaling to me. As for backpedaling, it's interesting you asked for pictures of orange peel, I supplied them, and now my camera is no good.

I'll tell you what, if you don't believe me shoot on over to Autopia.org and ask them. They're going to tell you the same thing I just did. Or maybe you'll just call me a car wash boy again. Cheers.

[Zeroday]

Picus, you seem to be twisting things around here. My original statement which you curtly said 'no' to:

Originally Posted by Zeroday

Ferrari measures paint depth electronically on every car produced. If 'huge variances' are found they get repainted.

I stand by this statement.

[Shinobi]

Wow...just, wow. So much for getting any useful info out of this topic. I don't frequent this forum much, but I am considering a 335i ( see sig ). so I drop by every now and then to stay informed. This is just my own personal observation, but it seems to me that whenever I see a big argument develop here, Zeroday is more often than not, involved in some way... . It really sucks to see a thread on what I found to be an interesting topic just completely degenerate.

[scb]

Originally Posted by Zeroday

If really you wanted me to let it go you wouldn't be flaming me now would you.

yes, I would, and I am. I am interested in the original topic of this thread, which is the orange peel effect on BMW 3 series with jet Black paint (since I'm considering Jet Black). I could care less about what ferrari does or doesn't do with their paint, and I don't care to read about you telling someone else he's just a car wash guy. If you can contribute to the original topic, please do so. Otherwise, please let it go

[18LLC]

y we care about ferrari's paint? anyone getting one soon? the topic for this thread is not ferrari. I do see some boats have better paint job than ferrari.

[petesamprs]

fyi - Here are pics of orange peel on my sg 330i, so ppl can see what exactly it looks like.

[Jason]

Enough of the crap, seriously. Any further off-topic posts in this thread will be removed. I agree with shinobi that this is an interesting topic and would like to see it continue without the BS.

[primerate335]

Lets all play well in our sandbox. IMAO comparing a $250,000 Ferrari to a BMW on paint quality is absurd.
BTW my UltraShield dealer in Naples FL has installed the clear bras on several Ferraris and now refuses to do so without a disclaimer because it will lift the paint in some cases when removed. He is the installer /instructer for the state of Florida and he says Ferrari has the softest paint on the market. I am no expert but he does have pictures of lifted paint on several Ferraris.

So go figure about paint quality, orange peel etc. I am very happy with the paint on my 335. Everyone enjoy your cars and chill...

[18LLC]

Originally Posted by petesamprs

fyi - Here are pics of orange peel on my sg 330i, so ppl can see what exactly it looks like.

wow, i never realized sg is that bad. I have sg, too...

[Zeroday]

It's not just SG, it's just more noticeable on dark colors. My car's paint looks identical to the picture above.

[06330i]

most new bimmers have orange peel.

[Joe Bimmer]

Originally Posted by 18LLC

wow, i never realized sg is that bad. I have sg, too...

Mine has this same, awful paint job. Also, everyone please be aware that SG (and probably every other color) can be scratched with a micro-cloth if you press hard enough. I was trying to get some bird shit out of my hood (damn Texas birds are evil), and over-rubbed and caused a noticeable mark under my garage's flourescent light.

[painoz]

Originally Posted by picus

Has the dealer tried to remedy the issue by working on the effected panel at all? It sounds like what happened was your car was baked either too slowly, or was allowed to sit too long between paint and baking; what you're describing sounds very much like solvent popping on a large scale. If this is the car is possible the issue could be correctly by polishing; *however* if they painted over a base coat that sat too long you're going to require a re-paint (which as you mentioned is unacceptable).

The defect is under the clear coat. It seriously looks like someone dropped some primer on the paint, and then clear coated the car. I wish it could be buffed out, then I wouldn't have to go through this.

[dmboone25]

Originally Posted by picus

All mass produced cars have it to some extent. The only cars I have ever seen without it are custom paint jobs. Here's an example.

[IMG]http://****************/pics/04g35072105/a.jpg[/IMG]

See the reflection? See how they aren't straight, but dimpled? That's because the paint has microscopic little high and low valleys in it, so the reflections appear as if they were coming off the surface of an orange (thus the term, orange peel).

More:
http://****************/pics/328122006/e.jpg

Even Astons have it:
http://****************/pics/vantage121406/d.jpg

Corvette's too:
http://****************/pics/vette120506/i.jpg

Porsche? Check:
http://****************/pics/9111506/f.jpg

Yes, BMW even has it on their hoods...
http://****************/pics/335123106/i.jpg

Mercedes, Maserati, Ferrari, NSX's a $15 custom job... all have it too
http://****************/pics/e55090406/a.jpg
http://****************/pics/mas070706/a.jpg
http://****************/pics/acuransx060406/photo4.jpg
http://****************/pics/575M062006/photo7.jpg
http://****************/pics/550072706/e.jpg
http://****************/pics/chall081506/e.jpg

One of the only cars I've ever seen without it, $18k paint job, full block color sand.
http://****************/pics/cuda073006/m.jpg

So ya, orange peel is a pisser, but we're stuck with it.

Oooooh, I see. I was imagining something much different (worse, I think). It doesn't look that bad to me? Thanks for clarifying Picus.

[55]

Thanks Picus for the competent explaination. I was wandering how the orange peel looks and where it comes from

[picus]

Originally Posted by painoz

The defect is under the clear coat. It seriously looks like someone dropped some primer on the paint, and then clear coated the car. I wish it could be buffed out, then I wouldn't have to go through this.

Uhg, bummer. I hope they work it out satisfactorily for you. Kind of amazing the car got delivered with that sort of problem.

[meruyailir]

Interesting. How about Rolls? I heard their paint has very few orange peel. Have you worked on some? I always thought that orange peel looks good and original. I had a paint job on my previous car and I was not pleased not to find orange peel in it.

Back on topic, yes my 325 does have orange peel too.

Originally Posted by picus

Orange peel has nothing to do with durability. The reason almost all mass produced cars have orange peel now is that the chemicals manufacturers can use in paint have changed significantly in the last 10 years - this causes more sag after the paint is applied and before it is baked. Combine that with a more automated process and the top layer of clear will almost always have high and low spots, thus orange peel. Very few cars are color sanded any more either (Lexus LS is, most exotics are).

An interesting thing to note, notice how the orange peel is almost always at the furthest point from where the machine would be spraying, in particular above the body line on the vertical surfaces, under the mirrors, etc. The paint has further to travel from the sprayer, you get more high and low spots and more orange peel.

I've detailed 14 e92 335i/328's now and all of them have had significant orange peel, unfortunately that's just life with a mass produced car.

Cars like Ferrari's have their own paint issues too; while they tend to have less orange peel due to color sanding, they will often have overspray, be terribly soft, or have huge variances in paint depth.

Not to go off topic, but some random info on BMW paint in general.

- It is not harder than "top of the line" Japanese paint. Toyota/Lexus paint is harder, BMW paint is about as "hard" as Honda/Acura paint. Nissan/Infiniti is generally softer. Orange peel has nothing to do with paint hardness. Mercedes and Audi paint is generally much harder. Interestingly, the BMWs produced in the USA (Z's, X's) have harder paint than the ones made in Germany.

Now, a note on the thread Bruno linked, and this has nothing to do with orange peel. e92 jet black (not e90, just e92, just jet black) is, in my experience, painfully soft. I would hazard anyone who is even considering a color-sand on black to test a very small area first. It is incredibly difficult to polish jet black e92's and finish smooth, so to polish out sanding marks would be a nightmare.

- In general BMW's orange peel is "average".

- You can remove orange peel on a factory job by color-sanding, but not by buffing only. The issue here is that factory paint runs between 12-16 microns, give or take; and if you remove more than ~3-5 microns you're almost guaranteed to have clear coat failure. Even light color-sanding will remove a micron or two. This is the same reason when you get an aftermarket paint job they will spray upwards of 30 microns of paint, because they know they will be color sanding. A quality color-sand will run you a couple thousand dollars anyway.