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JB3 2.0 & Procede V4 Boost + Ignition Graphical Comparison
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10-20-2010, 09:15 PM | #1 |
ElevenPointFive
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JB3 2.0 & Procede V4 Boost + Ignition Graphical Comparison
Background
Dzenno and I thought it would be interesting to compare boost and ignition curves for the JB3 V2.0 and Procede V4 by combing our data logs of a ¼ mile pass we each performed this summer. The graph below plots the data from a ¼ mile pass from each of our cars both of which resulted in a 121mph trap speed. We thought that because our trap speed results were the same, it would be interesting to compare the way our boost and ignition behaved. You can draw your own observations and conclusions from this comparison but it does point out some differences. We look forward to hearing people’s thoughts on these results, and in particular the thoughts of the more technically savvy community members. JB3 Car (Map 11)
Procede V4 Car
Graph Initial Observations
The JB3 track run used in this comparison was executed in May of this year. Since the time of the run, I have gone to dual CM7 nozzles, running a 60/40 meth mix and have dropped down to map 10 for the track. In executing these changes my ignition timing has improved significantly (consistently 8-12 degrees) with this approach. Using this approach, I was also able to record a 123mph trap. Dzenno can respond to any questions regarding his curves. We look forward to your observations and hopefully this kind of comparison adds some value to the community in an effort to learn more about our tunes in a high performance high boost scenario. EDIT Ignition graphs added seperately for each of the runs without any data cropping:
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MHD Stage 2+ ~ CPE DPs ~ BMS Intake ~ AMS FMIC Last edited by Irishace; 10-21-2010 at 07:45 AM.. |
10-20-2010, 09:24 PM | #2 |
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Good post, I like the fact based comparison.
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10-20-2010, 09:32 PM | #3 |
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Irish-- your dme was sensing knock post shift despite running higher octane and more meth/water than Dzenno. Which explains why your car was making less power despite running higher average boost in your 6at 135 vs his 6mt 335. No surprise that running more meth/water and less boost made your car run faster eventually. Good comparison and thanks for taking the time to plot the two logs on a single graph.
And your car will run faster still if you solve the knock issue through retuning keep boost high and cut back on the water content. Water helps with knock bit it costs power. You shouldn't be seeing knock at that boost level with ms109 and meth. Even with just a single m7. Shiv |
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10-20-2010, 09:36 PM | #4 | |
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Quote:
One other point of interest is how impressive the Procede is at logging. I received the .csv file from Dzenno and it captured 10x the amount of data rows vs. the JB3.
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10-20-2010, 09:39 PM | #5 |
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No problem. Just a word of warning though: judging by your log, You are/were at the point at which things can go bad very quickly. This isn't a tuner war instigation. But an observation based on obvious data that you collected.
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10-20-2010, 09:45 PM | #6 |
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What do you notice Shiv? Honestly interested in what you are seeing.
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10-20-2010, 09:50 PM | #7 | |
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It goes to show you how critical it is to log timing (thanks to Clap, JPslick and Dzenno for drilling this into me) and learn from the results when you are pushing the boundaries
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10-20-2010, 09:53 PM | #8 | |
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10-20-2010, 09:55 PM | #9 | |
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Quote:
To put this in perspective for those running Procede, Irish's effective aggression value would be over 6. And Dzenno's, by comparison, is less than 1 as it should be with race gas/meth. Not unexpected given the vastly different tuning strategies. But no less alarming (especially for Irish). Shiv Last edited by OpenFlash; 10-20-2010 at 10:24 PM.. |
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10-20-2010, 09:59 PM | #10 | |
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10-20-2010, 10:00 PM | #11 | |
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Thanks Shiv, appreciate the info.
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10-20-2010, 10:23 PM | #14 |
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Thanks for posting Irish..good discussion too..
I have one comment for shiv and a question..comment: this was on map2 with 100% UT and 0% ign corr and auto tuning was, I'm pretty sure, could be wrong, "OFF". Question: how is procede different in that mode of operation than the jb3 in terms of timing as it doesn't autotune boost or timing in that setup...Whenever I'm at the strip autotune is off (except for this past weekend) as recommended. I run map 2 20psi no ign correction. What would be the difference between the 2 tunes timing/boost wise, strictly in this drag setup configuration where 100+ octane is used and meth |
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10-20-2010, 10:31 PM | #15 |
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Thanks, the post was meant to illicit technical feedback based on data without getting into a giant tuner war. So far so good, great feedback so far.
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10-20-2010, 10:38 PM | #16 |
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Great comparison. It's interesting to see how timing ramps up with the JB3 and how the PROcede picks up timing from where it was before each shift.
I think this shows that the PROcede controls the timing whereas the JB3 uses the DME for timing control. |
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10-20-2010, 10:38 PM | #17 | |
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The difference is, even with 0% ignition correction, the Procede still applies a dynamic correction during sudden load transitions which you see at every upshift. Which is why Irish is knocking (with the jb3) and you are not (with the Procede) despite similar conditions, boost and octane. We just chose not to show it as a datalog parameter since we wanted to keep this extra bit (among other things) to ourselves. Shiv |
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10-20-2010, 10:41 PM | #18 |
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I would love to see more of these comparisons.
Does anyone want to "Mate" logs with me? haha 6MT Full bolt ons No Meth Procede I have race gas and pump gas logs |
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10-20-2010, 10:49 PM | #19 |
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I really apprecaite seeing these logs.
I would also reallllly love to see standard pump gas logs to compare what most users are using every day, not just the balls to the wall 20psi runs.
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10-20-2010, 10:53 PM | #20 |
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I think we can arrange that
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10-20-2010, 11:04 PM | #21 | |
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Pump gas timing logs: Normal to see some evidence of timing retard. Some degree of knock retard is acceptable since the DME is designed to operate at the knock threshold. Excessive knock retard is unnacceptable because this indicates that the engine is operating well beyond the knock threshold. If this is happening at 12-15psi, something is wrong. Race gas/meth timing logs: You should see almost no evidence of timing retard. Knocking at 20psi of boost is far more damaging that knocking at 12-15psi of boost. And if you are knocking with race gas/meth, something is VERY wrong. Either your tune is too aggressive. Or it's just not doing what it should do. To put things in perspectively, on pump gas at 14-15psi, my car routinely operates with an aggression value to 2 ("mild" average knock retard). But at 20psi running race gas AND methanol, my car rarely sees an aggression level more than 0.5-0.7 (minimal/almost no knock retard). Seeing more frequent/more serious knock retard at those HIGH power levels can quickly result in an expensive engine rebuild. It's pretty intuitive: The more power your engine is generating, the more conservatively it needs to be tuned with respect to knock resistance. A few pings at a 500hp output level is far more damaging than a few pings at the 350hp output level. Hope that helps... Cheers, shiv |
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