Supercharger stuff (MILVs+AA+BPC)

Taskmaster · 05-21-2018, 08:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Noir

There was someone in here that I had in mind, but can't remember and I'm about to get to work...

Anyone want the install document cor their vewing pleasure? Shoot me a good email!

Whats the time table your looking at for the tune and then Supercharger + tune?

Noir · 05-21-2018, 09:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Taskmaster

Whats the time table your looking at for the tune and then Supercharger + tune?

Dude, at this point its all up to when they get the e85 thing ironed out.
I wanted to be there, no shit, this week. :/
But I can't miss out on their current project.

Taskmaster · 05-21-2018, 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Noir

Dude, at this point its all up to when they get the e85 thing ironed out.
I wanted to be there, no shit, this week. :/
But I can't miss out on their current project.

The E85 would only come into play AFTER the supercharger is intalled and tuned. And even then, that could be a while. To run E85 all the time, you'll need new injectors, fuel pump and an inline fuel sensor (like Bob posted)

Set a goal - stick with it, then plan for upgrades if/when they come.

I can't wait to see where you take it!

Pinscher · 05-21-2018, 03:07 PM

delete, stupid questions.

Pinscher · 05-21-2018, 03:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Biginboca

That’s a great idea, like a “catch can” you mean right?

You could get a new sponge, weigh it, then put it where the oil is coming out. at the end of the day you can weigh it again and calculate the amount of oil by weight..i'm sure there is a conversion you could do to ml or quarts

Noir · 05-21-2018, 04:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pinscher

delete, stupid questions.

No such things... You are fine, my guy!

Torgus · 05-22-2018, 10:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Taskmaster

The E85 would only come into play AFTER the supercharger is intalled and tuned. And even then, that could be a while. To run E85 all the time, you'll need new injectors, fuel pump and an inline fuel sensor (like Bob posted)

Set a goal - stick with it, then plan for upgrades if/when they come.

I can't wait to see where you take it!

Why would anyone want to go through all that hassle for E85? Gains would be so minimal...

Noir · 05-22-2018, 12:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Torgus

Quote:

Originally Posted by Taskmaster

The E85 would only come into play AFTER the supercharger is intalled and tuned. And even then, that could be a while. To run E85 all the time, you'll need new injectors, fuel pump and an inline fuel sensor (like Bob posted)

Set a goal - stick with it, then plan for upgrades if/when they come.

I can't wait to see where you take it!

Why would anyone want to go through all that hassle for E85? Gains would be so minimal...

Why not? Not like going through the troubles would be more than the kit itself.
I'm interested in seeing where it goes.

Taskmaster · 05-22-2018, 01:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Torgus

Why would anyone want to go through all that hassle for E85? Gains would be so minimal...

You can run blends on the stock fuel system, but to run E85 you’ll need to make those changes.

Torgus · 05-22-2018, 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Taskmaster

You can run blends on the stock fuel system, but to run E85 you’ll need to make those changes.

I get it, but the very very minimal power gains of running full E85 along with getting 30%+ worse MPG along with the cost of parts + install along with a custom BPC tune, it does not seem to make any sense for this engine. That is what I am getting at unless I am missing something?

Someone feel free to add up all the costs.

Noir · 05-22-2018, 01:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Torgus

I get it, but the very very minimal power gains of running full E85 along with getting 30%+ worse MPG along with the cost of parts + install along with a custom BPC tune, it does not seem to make any sense for this engine. That is what I am getting at unless I am missing something?

Someone feel free to add up all the costs.

Wont know what I got 'till I try it. :P
MPG doesnt exactly matter to me as 93 is almost always more expensive than 85 is up here. If MPGs were on my mind, I would've stopped a long time ago when I went from Stock Avg. of 396miles a tank to 287 Miles a tank after all the shenanigans.

I can add em up if I get that far

Torgus · 05-22-2018, 01:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Noir

Wont know what I got 'till I try it. :P
MPG doesnt exactly matter to me as 93 is almost always more expensive than 85 is up here. If MPGs were on my mind, I would've stopped a long time ago when I went from Stock Avg. of 396miles a tank to 287 Miles a tank after all the shenanigans.

I can add em up if I get that far

You are also stuck running 100% E85 100% of the time which could be an issue unless BPC has a hand held flasher and it's quick to change maps. Then you will need a 93 map for those injectors so two maps to be made and they can't be made back to back unless you drain the tank. Just something to think about.

Make a thread when you do it, be interesting to see the gains(if any) on a SC N52. It does wonders on the FI N54.

Taskmaster what is the need for the new Fuel Sensor out of curiosity?

Noir · 05-22-2018, 02:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Torgus

You are also stuck running 100% E85 100% of the time which could be an issue unless BPC has a hand held flasher and it's quick to change maps. Then you will need a 93 map for those injectors so two maps to be made and they can't be made back to back unless you drain the tank. Just something to think about.

Make a thread when you do it, be interesting to see the gains(if any) on a SC N52. It does wonders on the FI N54.

Taskmaster what is the need for the new Fuel Sensor out of curiosity?

Gotcha!
Been thinking of that tbh..
Only in regards to when I got to BPC though.
I have their handheld with me at the house but with that sensor, if I am understanding it correctly, should allow me to flip between the two octanes... but I may be wrong. I am not too savvy and it is pure speculation on my end.

atmosphericM · 05-22-2018, 02:58 PM

That's what I was alluding to earlier, and it seems pretty fancy. Seems like it would be expensive because the tune would have to have a huge number of tables. Even if you only read the sensor at 1% intervals, that's 100 different "tune" profiles the tune would have to switch between as it read the ethanol percentage. With that method you'd never need to "switch" between tunes yourself using the handheld or steering wheel buttons. I don't really know anything about this stuff though...

Torgus · 05-22-2018, 03:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Noir

Gotcha!
Been thinking of that tbh..
Only in regards to when I got to BPC though.
I have their handheld with me at the house but with that sensor, if I am understanding it correctly, should allow me to flip between the two octanes... but I may be wrong. I am not too savvy and it is pure speculation on my end.

Is it just a flex fuel sensor they want you to install so you know your E content?

Quote:

Originally Posted by atmosphericM

That's what I was alluding to earlier, and it seems pretty fancy. Seems like it would be expensive because the tune would have to have a huge number of tables. Even if you only read the sensor at 1% intervals, that's 100 different "tune" profiles the tune would have to switch between as it read the ethanol percentage. With that method you'd never need to "switch" between tunes yourself using the handheld or steering wheel buttons. I don't really know anything about this stuff though...

On the N54 they do this now: https://www.motivmotorsport.com/coll...el-for-the-n54 I would be surprised if BPC is going to try and do the same, aka 1 tune always auto adjusting based on E content, given it took months if not years of work and applies much more to N54 customers than N52 as the N54 is octane limited from the factory on stock twins. But if they are that is cool. Probably a very limited market on the N52 given you need FI to get any worthwhile gains from E85.

Still be cool to see what they come up with.

Taskmaster · 05-22-2018, 04:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Noir

Gotcha!
Been thinking of that tbh..
Only in regards to when I got to BPC though.
I have their handheld with me at the house but with that sensor, if I am understanding it correctly, should allow me to flip between the two octanes... but I may be wrong. I am not too savvy and it is pure speculation on my end.

You’re right, he’s wrong. In inline sensor would adjust the tune automatically based on the Ethanol content. Bob pointed this out in the other thread.

Torgus · 05-22-2018, 05:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Taskmaster

You’re right, he’s wrong. In inline sensor would adjust the tune automatically based on the Ethanol content. Bob pointed this out in the other thread.

That will be impressive to see!

Because you then need to wire the sensor into the ecu somehow. Or somehow tell something what the E content is.

It will be most impressive to see what the gains are and the bang for your buck.

You got a link to that thread Taskmaster so I can stop making assumptions? I must have missed it.

Taskmaster · 05-22-2018, 05:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Torgus

That will be impressive to see!

Because you then need to wire the sensor into the ecu somehow. Or somehow tell something what the E content is.

It will be most impressive to see what the gains are and the bang for your buck.

You got a link to that thread Taskmaster so I can stop making assumptions? I must have missed it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob@BPC

I can always talk with the guys from MHD(partners) and I know Jake from Motiv Motorsport

https://www.motivmotorsport.com/prod...el-for-mhd-bmw

Quote:

Tired of measuring at the pump to make sure you are at the mix you want? Tired of having to flash for different fuel contents? SO WERE WE!!!

The MOTIV Flex Fuel Box will allow you to finally have full Flex Fuel capability in conjunction with the MHD Flex Fuel module. Every necessary table will interpolate between a pump gas and full e85 map without touching a thing. Fill up and go regardless of the mix. Thanks to a collaboration between the incredible guys at MHD, Jake Yamona and MOTIV we can now have true Flex Fuel.

Flex Fuel through MHD will work for both flash only and JB4 back end flash users. Any and everyone can benefit from this!!

Included with the MOTIV Flex Fuel Box is a PNP harness to connect to the DME, Flex Fuel Box, and Ethanol Content Sensor.

.

Noir · 05-22-2018, 05:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Taskmaster

.

bingoooooooooooooooooooo
I missed that last post entirely...
lel, that was the description fml...

Actually skimmed the website earlier today after I finally clicked the h-link from the BPC thread-
Looks neato mosquitooooo

JuniorB · 05-23-2018, 04:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Taskmaster

The E85 would only come into play AFTER the supercharger is intalled and tuned. And even then, that could be a while. To run E85 all the time, you'll need new injectors, fuel pump and an inline fuel sensor (like Bob posted)

Set a goal - stick with it, then plan for upgrades if/when they come.

I can't wait to see where you take it!

You can run a 1/4 e on stock hardware, I've been doing it for a few years with no problems what's so ever. My plugs are spotless, no 02 codes, nothing. I'll go read what's be posted, just chiming in from experience. It's to bad those sc kits run pullys the size of diner plates, I would hope be now, these kits could target 12-14 psi like nothing

CobraMarty · 05-23-2018, 07:48 AM

Unfortunately the problem is partly the 'large' SC and the engine rpm to 7000.

With my car and auto and my driving style, I rarely if ever rev above 6000.
If you set the rev limiter to 6000, you could then pulley it to have max SC rpm at the 6000rpm instead of 7000rpm. This will make more boost down low and more mid range power.

CobraMarty · 05-23-2018, 08:33 AM

So the stock harmonic balancer is about 5.375".
ESS SC pulley is 4.52"(115mm).
Pulley ratio is 5.375/4.52= 1.19:1 pulley ratio. At 7500 engine rpm that is 8919 SC rpm.
That is on a SC with max rpm 14,450.
No wonder the boost curve is so lazy and low boost on top of 6psi.

A 4" SC pulley will have a pulley ratio of 5.375/4= 1.34 pulley ratio. At 6500rpm that is 8710SC rpm and would make about 6psi but will have a more ramped up boost curve.

A 3.75" SC pulley will have a PR of 5.375/3.75= 1.433. So at 6200rpm that is 8885 SC rpm and again about 6psi at 6200rpm. And an even more aggressive boost curve.

So the problem is that over 6psi, the charge intake air temps start getting too high and cause detonation and issues. Need some type of intercooling. Water/meth injection or ethanol fuel. FMIC and water-air IC unfortunately are a packaging problem.

So if the max boost non-intercooler is 6psi, and on an engine that can rev to 7200rpm, ESS has to pulley accordingly which is why there is such a 'lazy' boost curve and little to no gain at low-mid rpm, even up to about 4500rpm.

My idea is if you change your driving style and engine to rev limit to 6200rpm, you can now still pulley to target about 8900 SC rpm and about 6psi. This will have a much more aggressive boost curve and more power down low and in the mid rpm range and more torque down low.

If you solve the high charge IAT issue, you will then be able to run more boost, even up to 12-15psi like the BPC turbo FMIC N52 'Alice'.

05-21-2018, 03:07 PM	#136
Pinscher Lieutenant 113 Rep 513 Posts Drives: 2008 335i Join Date: Jan 2018 Location: Vancouver iTrader: (0) Garage List 2008 335i - Stock [0.00] 2007 BMW 328 - 330 ... [0.00]	delete, stupid questions. Last edited by Pinscher; 05-21-2018 at 03:28 PM..
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05-22-2018, 02:58 PM	#146
atmosphericM Basic Bimmer 518 Rep 935 Posts Drives: E92 328i 6MT ///M Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: B'ham iTrader: (1) Garage List 2013 BMW 328i Coupé ... [10.00]	That's what I was alluding to earlier, and it seems pretty fancy. Seems like it would be expensive because the tune would have to have a huge number of tables. Even if you only read the sensor at 1% intervals, that's 100 different "tune" profiles the tune would have to switch between as it read the ethanol percentage. With that method you'd never need to "switch" between tunes yourself using the handheld or steering wheel buttons. I don't really know anything about this stuff though...
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05-23-2018, 07:48 AM	#153
CobraMarty Major 619 Rep 1,402 Posts Drives: 2007 328xi e90 + e92 Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: BimmerMILVs.com iTrader: (7)	Unfortunately the problem is partly the 'large' SC and the engine rpm to 7000. With my car and auto and my driving style, I rarely if ever rev above 6000. If you set the rev limiter to 6000, you could then pulley it to have max SC rpm at the 6000rpm instead of 7000rpm. This will make more boost down low and more mid range power.
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05-23-2018, 08:33 AM	#154
CobraMarty Major 619 Rep 1,402 Posts Drives: 2007 328xi e90 + e92 Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: BimmerMILVs.com iTrader: (7)	So the stock harmonic balancer is about 5.375". ESS SC pulley is 4.52"(115mm). Pulley ratio is 5.375/4.52= 1.19:1 pulley ratio. At 7500 engine rpm that is 8919 SC rpm. That is on a SC with max rpm 14,450. No wonder the boost curve is so lazy and low boost on top of 6psi. A 4" SC pulley will have a pulley ratio of 5.375/4= 1.34 pulley ratio. At 6500rpm that is 8710SC rpm and would make about 6psi but will have a more ramped up boost curve. A 3.75" SC pulley will have a PR of 5.375/3.75= 1.433. So at 6200rpm that is 8885 SC rpm and again about 6psi at 6200rpm. And an even more aggressive boost curve. So the problem is that over 6psi, the charge intake air temps start getting too high and cause detonation and issues. Need some type of intercooling. Water/meth injection or ethanol fuel. FMIC and water-air IC unfortunately are a packaging problem. So if the max boost non-intercooler is 6psi, and on an engine that can rev to 7200rpm, ESS has to pulley accordingly which is why there is such a 'lazy' boost curve and little to no gain at low-mid rpm, even up to about 4500rpm. My idea is if you change your driving style and engine to rev limit to 6200rpm, you can now still pulley to target about 8900 SC rpm and about 6psi. This will have a much more aggressive boost curve and more power down low and in the mid rpm range and more torque down low. If you solve the high charge IAT issue, you will then be able to run more boost, even up to 12-15psi like the BPC turbo FMIC N52 'Alice'.
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