[DeobandiPrince]

I have a solo 2E85 code (Just the one code. Nothing else.) Previous owner said the owner before him changed the water pump (in 2019 but no receipts were given.) Here's the freeze frame. I can clear the code but it comes back after a couple minutes.



The car never overheats and when I request various water pump RPM's via INPA it's all within range as noted below when requesting 5%, 50% and 95% respectively.





Is there anything worth noticing in the data above?


I just now jacked the car up, disconnected the connector to the water pump and sprayed both male and female side with electrical connector cleaner. The whole area is all greasy from a leaky VCG, OFHG and OPG so I gave the area a nice scrub down as well. I cleared the code with the water pump disconnected, connected it back and drove the car and the code came back again (all this was done with the battery connected FYI.)

I should also note that there's nothing out of the ordinary from the fan. I've read people reporting that the fans go on full blast when they turn on the car or other weird stuff but nothing on my end. I can run the coolant bleed procedure with no issues or stuttering either.

I've read others may have BSD issues that present it self with error codes from other things on the BSD line (oil level sensor, IBS or alternator) but I don't see have any fault codes for those and also my car is non IBS E90 (seems pretty rare lol.)

I've owned the car with this code for more than a year now and have drive it on 4 hour road trips with no issues but I plan on doing a roadtrip from Michigan to California with some friends so just want to be positive about the water pump issue.

Looking forward to suggestions and insight.

[Mike K]

Buy a pump and bring it along for good Kharma!

[DeobandiPrince]

Originally Posted by Mike K

Buy a pump and bring it along for good Kharma!

Roadside water pump and T-stat job. That's what nightmares are made of lol

[mainbearing]

Accord to this: https://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1557998

That code can mean problems with either on the circuit board in the pump or with the car's ECU. It is strange that INPA sees the pump speed percentages.

When my pump would not turn above 85%, it did not set any code. It was the cooling fan's "jet engine" sound that got me to do a scan. And out that factory pump went. I was not waiting.

I think you should spend an afternoon and replace BOTH the pump and the thermostat before the road trip. I do not know how to diagnose the ECU, but maybe you want to check that before replacing the pump. However, given the pump would not spin over 88%, I think that might be it. The internal circuit board may be burning up.

This member thought it was the circuit board that failed most of the time: https://www.e90post.com/forums/showp...02&postcount=7

What I used, Behr stat and Pierburg pump:

[DeobandiPrince]

Originally Posted by mainbearing

Accord to this: https://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1557998

That code can mean problems with either on the circuit board in the pump or with the car's ECU. It is strange that INPA sees the pump speed percentages.

When my pump would not turn above 85%, it did not set any code. It was the cooling fan's "jet engine" sound that got me to do a scan. And out that factory pump went. I was not waiting.

I think you should spend an afternoon and replace BOTH the pump and the thermostat before the road trip. I do not know how to diagnose the ECU, but maybe you want to check that before replacing the pump. However, given the pump would not spin over 88%, I think that might be it. The internal circuit board may be burning up.

This member thought it was the circuit board that failed most of the time: https://www.e90post.com/forums/showp...02&postcount=7

What I used, Behr stat and Pierburg pump:

Hmm yea I don't know jack squat about the ECU either lol. But I appreciate your insight. I'm down to replace the water pump and T-stat but it's like $300 and as a college student on a budget, it'd be nice to know it was the water pump before replacing it haha. But at this point, I might just replace it and call it a day.

I did some reading into the BSD bus stuff that the error code calls on and apparently the oil level sensor, alternator, IBS and water pump are on the same bus and sometimes one of those other things can cause issues on other parts of the bus but strangely I don't have any codes for the other things.

I saw some thread that said that unplugging those things one at a time, clearing the code and replugging them back in might move the code around to help diagnose it but I don't know the exact steps to do it. Unsure if I have to clear the code while it's unplugged and rescan or what.

Hoping gbalthrop replies cause that man is a wizard when it comes to water pump stuff from what I've read on here lol

[gbalthrop]

Originally Posted by DeobandiPrince

I have a solo 2E85 code (Just the one code. Nothing else.) Previous owner said the owner before him changed the water pump (in 2019 but no receipts were given.) Here's the freeze frame. I can clear the code but it comes back after a couple minutes...
The car never overheats and when I request various water pump RPM's via INPA it's all within range as noted below when requesting 5%, 50% and 95% respectively...
Is there anything worth noticing in the data above? [See Below]
...
I can run the coolant bleed procedure with no issues or stuttering either...
also my car is non IBS E90 (seems pretty rare lol.)...

Originally Posted by DeobandiPrince

Hoping gbalthrop replies cause that man is a wizard when it comes to water pump stuff from what I've read on here lol

Don't believe everything you read, or in "Very Stable Genius" types.
My 3/2007 build 328xi with 137,000 miles still has the original Pierburg water pump. I have NEVER touched my pump or had any of the Five (5) 2E81 - 2E85 Pump codes or any overheating issue.

Like your INPA Activation Data, 5% & 50% activation yields Actual Speed of virtually SAME percentage, but 95% just yields ~ 89% Actual Speed. Yet I have NO 2E81 pump speed deviation code or heating issue. So I would NOT be concerned about your 88.6% Actual with 95% Activation selected.

I'm NOT sure what that 2E85 code is supposed to mean. It appears to be SOME type of communication error. SIB 12 04 05 gives the definition:
"Electric Coolant Pump, communication, no voltage at emergency operation input of pump". I have NO information on WHERE voltage is NOT present, or under WHAT conditions. You say the Bleed Procedure works; the INPA Activation obviously works; it never overheats; and there are NO other DME Fault Codes.

Google Translate says the German Description of your Fault Code that appears in 2nd line: "kein notlauf signal an kühlmittelpumpe" = no emergency signal at coolant pump. So there appears to be some "Emergency Signal" or input that is NOT "plausible" (Type 8 "Fehlerart" or Fault Type means "implausible signal/value". I have NO suggestions on how to interpret that.

SWAG: if NO BSD control of pump, it MAY run at some default speed (emergency?) BSD Alternator appears to do that. Perhaps coolant pump does the same. That could be quickly determined by opening INPA Screen you used to Activate Pump:
INPA > DME > F6 > F1 > Shft+F1 Control Coolant Pump.

Simply view/save that screen with pump under DME Control (NO Over-ride of DME Control by selecting one of the Function keys F1 - F3). Watch the "Status Water Pump" or Actual Speed % and the ECTS Coolant Temp Values as the engine warms from cold start. Pump should slowly increase speed in increments as engine warms to ~ 90C. My pump may not run at more than ~ 15% until ECTS > 80C.

Be aware that the Radiator Outlet Temp Value in the Right-hand bar graph is ALWAYS 7.5C LESS than the ECTS Value on N52K engines which have NO ROTS (Radiator Outlet Temp Sensor) on the Lower Radiator Hose.

Evaluating your Freeze Frame Data, Post #1:
1) The 2E85 Fault is Currently Present, and would NOT light a warning lamp;
2) There were 3 saved instances of that Fault Code: 1) at 226552 km on odometer, 2) 40 km later at 226592 km, and 3) 88 km later at 226680 km. Odometer reading is rounded to nearest 8 km or 5 mi, so values are in 8 km increments;
3) First code instance was at 1024 RPM and 13C Coolant Temp. Other two were with engine OFF, Coolant Temp 40C & 51C.

TWO of the three instances of 2E85 FC were with engine OFF. One with engine running, ECTS Value was 13C. Other two were 40C & 51C. NONE were at normal operating temperature. Have you used INPA, or "Hidden Menu 7.00" to view Coolant Temperature (ECTS/ Engine Coolant Temp Sensor Signal) with engine running, or as you drive? Does it get to normal operating Temp of 90C+?

The mileage/km figures for the three reported instances of the code do NOT suggest it "Immediately" comes back. I would save any new screen showing different FF Data/ mileages, CLEAR the 2E85 code, and then check back in 20 miles (less than 40 km), and again at 50 miles.

I'm a bit intrigued by the fact that your 2009 328i does NOT have an IBS. That may be a clue, as my SWAG is that you have BSD bus issues rather than an issue with the Coolant Pump. I would be interested in knowing:
1) Make and part# of your Coolant Pump;
2) Make and part# of your Alternator;
3) Photos of your Negative battery terminal and Rear Power Distribution Panel (on top of battery. Also whether you have a light blue connector which has NOTHING plugged into it, ABOVE the Battery in the Chassis harness that runs over RR wheel and inside the car (that the IBS should be plugged into);
4) Does your OZS (Oil Condition Sensor) read oil level as the Owner's Manual says it should?
5) If you have an Infrared Thermometer, aim that at the ECTS at the OFH, to calibrate the ECTS signal readout.
6) What are Last-7 Characters of your VIN so we can provide proper wiring & IBS info for your vehicle.

I'll attach a photo of my IBS & RPDP (Rear Power Distribution Panel) to NEXT Post, so you can see where IBS SHOULD be connected (to Chassis harness going to DME, and to Rear of RPDP). Please let us know answers to above BEFORE you throw parts.
George

[gbalthrop]

Attached is photo, with Text Added, showing B+ Cables and connectors on the RPDP, and also the IBS and its Connectors.
Photo is of my 3/2007 build 328xi E91.
George

[e91Owner]

I ran my e60 for 2 years with a 2E85 code. Symptoms were the same as yours, meaning I had the code, but everything else was normal. I finally just decided to change out. Code went away. FWIW.

[mainbearing]

Maybe someone hacked OP's car to get rid of IBS? But why that would not introduce a battery management error code I do not know. Maybe the pump issue is related to that?

Anyway, remembering a recent post on the N54 engine (not sure if this is similar to the N52), gbalthrop had some diagrams which OP can use to check the voltages on the wires at the pump harness connector. Like the large red wire, orange to the brown ground wire, as well as between the violet signal wire to ground.

https://www.e90post.com/forums/showp...5&postcount=21
https://www.e90post.com/forums/showp...3&postcount=13

[DeobandiPrince]

Originally Posted by gbalthrop

I'm NOT sure what that 2E85 code is supposed to mean. It appears to be SOME type of communication error. SIB 12 04 05 gives the definition:
"Electric Coolant Pump, communication, no voltage at emergency operation input of pump". I have NO information on WHERE voltage is NOT present, or under WHAT conditions. You say the Bleed Procedure works; the INPA Activation obviously works; it never overheats; and there are NO other DME Fault Codes.

I got it scanned by a mechanic shop many months ago and they sent me a PDF and in their system translation they had it printed as "BSD (Bit-Serial Data Interface), message; electric coolant pump, missing" But yes no other DME code (well there's the AC code but that's under body codes, not DME part)

Originally Posted by gbalthrop

SWAG: if NO BSD control of pump, it MAY run at some default speed (emergency?) BSD Alternator appears to do that. Perhaps coolant pump does the same. That could be quickly determined by opening INPA Screen you used to Activate Pump:
INPA > DME > F6 > F1 > Shft+F1 Control Coolant Pump.

Simply view/save that screen with pump under DME Control (NO Over-ride of DME Control by selecting one of the Function keys F1 - F3). Watch the "Status Water Pump" or Actual Speed % and the ECTS Coolant Temp Values as the engine warms from cold start. Pump should slowly increase speed in increments as engine warms to ~ 90C. My pump may not run at more than ~ 15% until ECTS > 80C.

So I did this and the car started with coolant temp at (if I recall) 35-40 Celsius and I made a little chart in my phone with coolant temp in relation to water pump speed as I waited in the car to get up to temp.
41°C = 16.2%
50°C = 15.3%
60°C = 15.3%
65°C = 15.3%
70°C = 15.3%
75°C = 15.3%
80°C = 15.3%
91°C = 15.3%
At that point the coolant temp stablised at around 100°C at 15-16% water pump and stayed there for the next 3-4 minutes at that point I started driving the car. The pump speed only went up as I started driving around the parking lot and even more so at higher revs. Coolant temp started to drop to 80-90°C as I got up to 40-50mph.

Originally Posted by gbalthrop

Have you used INPA, or "Hidden Menu 7.00" to view Coolant Temperature (ECTS/ Engine Coolant Temp Sensor Signal) with engine running, or as you drive? Does it get to normal operating Temp of 90C+?

Yes. The car got up to 90°C pretty fast. The temp table I listed above was from the OBC secret menu thing and it was pretty close to the temps INPA was showing (with a bit of deviation but as you said, it's normal)

Originally Posted by gbalthrop

The mileage/km figures for the three reported instances of the code do NOT suggest it "Immediately" comes back. I would save any new screen showing different FF Data/ mileages, CLEAR the 2E85 code, and then check back in 20 miles (less than 40 km), and again at 50 miles.

I have to drive out about 50 miles later in the evening. I took a screenshot of the codes I had right now and cleared it and will check again when I get back home.

Originally Posted by gbalthrop

I'm a bit intrigued by the fact that your 2009 328i does NOT have an IBS. That may be a clue, as my SWAG is that you have BSD bus issues rather than an issue with the Coolant Pump. I would be interested in knowing:
1) Make and part# of your Coolant Pump;
2) Make and part# of your Alternator;
3) Photos of your Negative battery terminal and Rear Power Distribution Panel (on top of battery. Also whether you have a light blue connector which has NOTHING plugged into it, ABOVE the Battery in the Chassis harness that runs over RR wheel and inside the car (that the IBS should be plugged into);
4) Does your OZS (Oil Condition Sensor) read oil level as the Owner's Manual says it should?
5) If you have an Infrared Thermometer, aim that at the ECTS at the OFH, to calibrate the ECTS signal readout.
6) What are Last-7 Characters of your VIN so we can provide proper wiring & IBS info for your vehicle.

1. Coolant Pump P/N 11517586924-02. As for brand, top has a BMW logo stamped right above the P/N I mentioned. At the opposite side of the same face, it says Pierburg Pump Technologies Germany. From a couple water pump DIYs on youtube the Pierburg OE replacements only say Pierburg on the back of it. I assume (because of the BMW stamping) that mine is either the original pump that shipped from the factory and the previous owner lied or it was replaced at the dealership which also would make sense I think. (Will include face of the water pump below)
2. 0121717012
3. I will upload pics of Negative battery terminal and Power Distribution box in following post
4. Not sure how it's supposed to read according to the owner's manual, but it does operate normally as far as I can tell
5. Sorry I don't have a IR thermometer
6. A170958

[DeobandiPrince]

Originally Posted by gbalthrop

Attached is photo, with Text Added, showing B+ Cables and connectors on the RPDP, and also the IBS and its Connectors.
Photo is of my 3/2007 build 328xi E91.
George

Power Distribution box


Negative terminal


Top of battery


Face of water pump

[DeobandiPrince]

Originally Posted by e91Owner

I ran my e60 for 2 years with a 2E85 code. Symptoms were the same as yours, meaning I had the code, but everything else was normal. I finally just decided to change out. Code went away. FWIW.

Ahh that's very interesting. So you had only that one code, but your water pump %'s were all within spec and everything? Can you give a little more info on what you mean by "everything else was normal."

Thanks!

[mainbearing]

That looks like an old original pump to me.

Is the Pierburg pump lower left number "7 02851.01"? And is that a "08" or "09" to the right of that? I wonder if that's the year code, not sure. And the ".01" may be the original version.

If it was replaced in 19, I would be looking for an 18 or 19 anywhere on the pump. But that's just me.

[DeobandiPrince]

Originally Posted by mainbearing

That looks like an old original pump to me.

Is the Pierburg pump lower left number "7 02851.01"? And is that a "08" or "09" to the right of that? I wonder if that's the year code, not sure. And the ".01" may be the original version.

If it was replaced in 19, I would be looking for an 18 or 19 anywhere on the pump. But that's just me.

The numbers you read are indeed correct 7 02851.01 with an 09 next to it. Going from there T 107 00600

I read on another forum that there's 11517586924 and within those I see some -02 and -03 with P/Ns that end in 4. Then there's 11517586925 that end in 5. Assuming the ones ending in 5 are newer ones? Not sure

I checked FCPEuro and saw the Pierburg one under the P/N ending in 5

Mine says 7 02851.01 whereas this shows 7 02851.20

[mainbearing]

The pump I replaced in 2019 was "7 02851.20" with "18" to the right of that, I had no doubt I got a fairly "fresh" pump.

Therefore I am leaning that picture above was the original BMW pump that came with the car.

No matter now. The thing is to figure out why you have the "rare" edition without IBS, and if that was responsible for the communication problem with the pump. If all those are legit, then the communication problem has likely to be the pump.

I came across a post by Entity that when the pump failed, it did so suddenly, and you will get from normal to a red warning light to shut off in one minute. I could not find that post now.

https://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=565770

[DeobandiPrince]

Originally Posted by mainbearing

The pump I replaced in 2019 was "7 02851.20" with "18" to the right of that, I had no doubt I got a fairly "fresh" pump.

Therefore I am leaning that picture above was the original BMW pump that came with the car.

No matter now. The thing is to figure out why you have the "rare" edition without IBS, and if that was responsible for the communication problem with the pump. If all those are legit, then the communication problem has likely to be the pump.

I came across a post by Entity that when the pump failed, it did so suddenly, and you will get from normal to a red warning light to shut off in one minute. I could not find that post now.

https://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=565770

It is very uncommon but there's whispers and mentions in other E90 forums and here as well of some people who don't have the IBS. Only been mentioned a handful times on like page 12 of some thread lol. If you see the harness that it would come out from, there's no cutting or tampering there. Less problems for me to deal with

Yea it's starting to look like the guy lied about the water pump. It's pretty crazy to think it's gone 140miles on the original pump tho. I'm sure it's been changed once before although when is anybodies guess.

Either way, I'm going to finish the drive test gbalthrop mentioned before most likely pulling the trigger on a water pump and tstat. Let's see.

[DeobandiPrince]

Originally Posted by gbalthrop

The mileage/km figures for the three reported instances of the code do NOT suggest it "Immediately" comes back. I would save any new screen showing different FF Data/ mileages, CLEAR the 2E85 code, and then check back in 20 miles (less than 40 km), and again at 50 miles.

I did this. Took a pic before clearing codes (pic 1 @ 226736km). Drove about 20 miles. Took another pic (pic 2 @ 226783km). Drove another 20ish miles and took another pic without clearing anything (pic 3 @ 226881.)

Pic 1:


Pic 2 (47km/29 miles after clearing pic 1):


Pic 3 (98km/61 miles after clearing pic 1):


All this said and done, esp based on the P/Ns on the back of the water pump, I'm leaning towards just replacing the pump. The question I have to you and mainbearing is that let's say that I replace the water pump and the condition still persists (code 2E85 but temps are fine, water pump %'s look good) is there anything I should worry about? Like can I just live with the code and check back in 60-80k miles later? Or will this code cause me issues with shortening lifespan of water pump resulting in premature death of part.

Planning on driving out Saturday so going to make a decision on buying the waterpump by the end of today and so I have enough time to replace it through the week.

[mainbearing]

Hopefully when you changed the pump and thermostat, you no longer get the error code! If that was the original pump, hopefully nobody messed with the wiring harness either. This would be a good thing for the electrical connection. Just be careful with those connectors while working. The thermostat connector looks flimsy too.

You might want to see if the purple wire to brown wire described in the technical service bulletin SIB 12 04 05 (https://www.e90post.com/forums/showpost.php?p=28772389) gives you 7.5-8.5V. I guess this is where the BSD signal goes. I really do not know these things, but gbalthrop should be able to tell you more.

If you change the water pump and empty the cooling system, change the thermostat as well as the hose to the oil filter housing. That "Mickey Mouse flange" on the OFH end is a common failure point. Or you can wait on the aluminum flange for later with a new hose and plastic flange. The Rein flange o-ring is a tight fit, use some silicone grease and install evenly to avoid cutting the o-ring and causing a leak later.
https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo...=11564&jsn=424
https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo...=11566&jsn=433

My failed Micky flange and upper radiator hose below, which I Dremeled to remove from the radiator to prevent damaging the radiator bibb. The upper hose connector can get really stuck on there. See post #6 below. The Mickey flange looked ok and was not leaking, but was turning brown and fell apart upon removal like a soggy graham cracker.
https://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1901410


And also check the condition of the coolant reservoir vent tube that goes over the radiator. That thing likes to blow like a geyser when old. I fixed mine up using a 5/16"ID rubber coolant hose and a barbed connector (some members used two 1/4" barbed connectors). https://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1681960

Mickey mouse flange DIY:
https://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1618232

[DeobandiPrince]

Originally Posted by mainbearing

Hopefully when you changed the pump and thermostat, you no longer get the error code! If that was the original pump, hopefully nobody messed with the wiring harness either. This would be a good thing for the electrical connection. Just be careful with those connectors while working. The thermostat connector looks flimsy too.

You might want to see if the purple wire to brown wire described in the technical service bulletin SIB 12 04 05 (https://www.e90post.com/forums/showpost.php?p=28772389) gives you 7.5-8.5V. I guess this is where the BSD signal goes. I really do not know these things, but gbalthrop should be able to tell you more.

If you change the water pump and empty the cooling system, change the thermostat as well as the hose to the oil filter housing. That "Mickey Mouse flange" on the OFH end is a common failure point. Or you can wait on the aluminum flange for later with a new hose and plastic flange. The Rein flange o-ring is a tight fit, use some silicone grease and install evenly to avoid cutting the o-ring and causing a leak later.
https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo...=11564&jsn=424
https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo...=11566&jsn=433

My failed Micky flange and upper radiator hose below, which I Dremeled to remove from the radiator to prevent damaging the radiator bibb. The upper hose connector can get really stuck on there. See post #6 below. The Mickey flange looked ok and was not leaking, but was turning brown and fell apart upon removal like a soggy graham cracker.
https://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1901410


And also check the condition of the coolant reservoir vent tube that goes over the radiator. That thing likes to blow like a geyser when old. I fixed mine up using a 5/16"ID rubber coolant hose and a barbed connector (some members used two 1/4" barbed connectors). https://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1681960

Mickey mouse flange DIY:
https://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1618232

All great info. Wouldn't have thought about this stuff.
I'm thinking that if the code does stay on, I just won't bother trying to solve it considering that the pump seems to operate fine. Just gonna check back on it at like 60-80k miles.

[mainbearing]

Hopefully the code will stay off for good, among those other things that you might want to consider at the same time.

Looks like a few members could tackle this job in 5 hours or so. I must be the slow guy going hours beyond that. The thermostat needs to go in first and at the correct orientation, I spent time messing with just that.

Also, like some others, I accidentally loosened an AC compressor bolt doing it by feel because how close it was to the water pump bolt. And then it was like why doesn't the pump come off. LOL. So there was that too.

[DeobandiPrince]

Originally Posted by mainbearing

Hopefully the code will stay off for good, among those other things that you might want to consider at the same time.

Looks like a few members could tackle this job in 5 hours or so. I must be the slow guy going hours beyond that. The thermostat needs to go in first and at the correct orientation, I spent time messing with just that.

Also, like some others, I accidentally loosened an AC compressor bolt doing it by feel because how close it was to the water pump bolt. And then it was like why doesn't the pump come off. LOL. So there was that too.

So took me about 2 days and 7 hours to do with youtube and googling but got the job done and drove it around all day with no leaks. Cleared the codes and it hasn't come back yet either.

Happy to have spent the money and just replace it esp before a roadtrip and all.

Thanks for all the help guys!

[mainbearing]

Great to hear! Enjoy your roadtrip.