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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum
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Tuner Shootout (Procede / JB) - The Bench Tests
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01-05-2009, 08:44 AM | #287 |
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I will be conducting my own tests concerning ignition timing soon. I should have this done next weekend. In addition, I'll digest what was stated but there is no point in arguing. I'll present some data taken on a vehicle with no changes other than varying octane levels. But IMO, less than 3 degrees advance at peak torque...
And are we now saying that the JB3 relies solely on the DME to control timing? It seems to be suggested. The argument is now if that is adequate which I cannot say 100% either way. |
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01-05-2009, 09:27 AM | #289 |
Read the manual please, just do it before asking!
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But the graph shows a maximum of more than 3 degrees, right?
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01-05-2009, 09:48 AM | #290 | |
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There are suggestions on N54tech forums, that you may infact be a Haltech engineer ? Any truth to this????????? |
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01-05-2009, 02:02 PM | #292 |
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Shiv, I can understand that you're tiring of arguing but these flippant replies do you no favours. I would suggest that you either take the time to formulate a proper reply or don't bother replying.
Scalbert, thanks for taking the time to do a proper analysis so we can better understand what these piggyback tunes are doing to our $50k cars. It's a lot for one person to undertake and it's great to have someone with your background putting in this effort. |
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01-05-2009, 02:06 PM | #293 | ||
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shiv |
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01-05-2009, 02:15 PM | #295 | |
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I don't know who to believe, cause you both have a vested interested in your products. MONEY! I don't really know either of you...I have had very good service from Terry and quick response to each and every question. I have never read anything to the contrary, except from yourself. I don't want to jump to any conclusions about either of you and I don't know who is the more competent tuner. I believe there are 500-600 JB3 on the road, with no reports of any real problems. It has been out since Fall 2008. Shouldn't we have had a major issue by now if his tuning methods were as bad as you say? How many Rev1 or RevII are there on the road? At the same time, I really enjoy reading your posts and Scalbert's as well. Just to have a balance of opinions. The thread is the best by far! |
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01-05-2009, 02:30 PM | #296 | |
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The concepts are very simple. But certain parties are doing their best to cloud the issues at hand. And unfortunately some forum members aren't helping the situation as they seem more interested in defending their purchase than actually verifying that the device that is controlling their $20k engine is doing what it is supposed/advertised to do. As for longevity, a few months on the road means nothing. We haven't even gotten to summer yet! And when we do, things are going to be even more obvious. Until then, I urge everyone to absorb scalbert's testing data. It's unbiased, concise and very clearly written. Shiv |
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01-05-2009, 02:34 PM | #297 | |
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01-05-2009, 02:37 PM | #298 | |
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I haven't always had kind words about the PROcede and Shiv is well aware of them. It is the nature of which you present your findings will determine how one will respond. |
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01-05-2009, 02:48 PM | #301 | |
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This whole concept was brought up and agreed upon by all tuners back in September and due to various reason (the death of my brother being one of them), it took until now to get started. Now when it starts, people get cross-eyed. |
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01-05-2009, 02:55 PM | #303 | |
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The JB2 has been on the market for quite some time. That doesn't have CPS offset, no? Shouldn't there be more of these issues you are expecting this summer? I thought someone here had a turbo bearing failure while using a piggyback. I don't recall which one. I agree there are a few loyalists here. But other like myself, that remain objective and want to protect our investments. |
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01-05-2009, 03:17 PM | #304 | |
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As for engine durability, I don't think anyone can claim high mileage with a moderate-to-high powered tune yet. Even I only have 40k miles on my clock. And with only 20k of that being with direct solenoid/higher boost with power levels above 330whp. So anyone who claims that their tune doesn't measurably impact long term durability is just wishful thinking at this point. So what do we do to keep things as safe as possible for our $50k investment? We make sure that the car is tuned properly with all safety features operating as they should. And very big part of that is letting the factory knock control system operating in the range it is designed to operate in (in a stock car). If simply running a tune takes away half of that adjustment range due to induced ignition retard, half of the ability to protect the engine from detonation is gone. And with, it have of your safety margin against knock. It's like running a stock car around on 87oct. Yes, the factory knock control system will yank out the timing to keep the engine from audibly pinging 95% of the time. But now you only have a fraction of that safety margin that you had on premium gasoline. This same exact concept applies with tunes that don't actively adjust timing to go along with the 8-10psi boost increase that they induce. Even on the theoretical level, the idea of a solid piggy-back tune is one that induce ALL the necessary fuel, boost and timing offsets itself in order to keep the factory ECU operating in the exact same expected range that is designed to operate in (in a stock car). This means that fuel trims should be within factory range (this is why even our nonDD maps adjust fuel pressure), ignition timing/knock sensor intervention should be within stock ranges (hence the induced CPS offset), and wastegate drive should be in the stock range (hence the PID control system that keeps it there). All pretty intuitive and all goes far in making sure that as little as possible is compromised when retuning a car to make another 70-100whp. For a tuner, it can be very tempted to do littler more than raise the boost, bias the widebands and let the factory ECU sort out as much as it can. To the user, all they will immediately see is that adaptation takes a bit longer. But for the tuner, it makes map development and hardware design so mucgh easier since one can run 80-90% fewer board components and address 50% of the tuning maps. But the question is, is it the best approach for your $50k car. Everyone will have different answers since no two people have the same risk/reward traits. Shiv |
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01-05-2009, 03:30 PM | #305 | |
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According to the above, JB3 does not induce CPS offsets nor IAT offsets. So are you saying the only way timing can be controlled is through CPS offsets or IAT offsets, which the JB3 doesn't do, thus does not control timing? None of the other outputs available on the JB3 can not indirectly induce any changes to timing?
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01-05-2009, 04:24 PM | #306 | |
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01-05-2009, 04:49 PM | #307 | |
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01-05-2009, 05:40 PM | #308 | |
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I agree 100%, in fact with my "safe tune" I'd wager this engine won't make it past 50k without a complete overhaul (slight exaggeration). Seriously, if you beat on this engine with a "tune" be sure you send it packing before 50k.
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