[vasillalov]

Originally Posted by enrita

Of course, thats the whole point. Get a remap depending on boost.
Are you telling me you did not know the differences between a piggy and a flash?

....aaaah! Somewhere around here the truth wants to come out! The truth is that a well written ECU reflash will always be safer and more capable when it comes to ignition timing, boost and reaction to adverse engine events.

As a side note, GIAC is not peddling around with el-cheap-o cars like the JDMs, Honda and Toyotas. These guys have been tuning Audi, Porsche, BMW and even Bentleys for over a decade.

Does anyone honestly believe here that GIAC will release a tune that does not include a timing remap as part of it's software and risk massively expensive engines in the above mentioned brands?

I am not saying that their software is safe to run with METH because I have not data to prove or disprove such a claim.

On the other hand, it seems to me that with the rate at which Procede is improving (quite commendable actually) this thing will become a true standalone some day.

[packinDSS]

Mike,

I haven't read this thread end to end LOL it’s too long. But it seems that we have had two engines blow up using JB3 and none using Procede? Granted it's debatable as to whether it was the JB3 or not..........

So my question is that if we were to fast forward a year from now and these numbers looked like this... JB3 6 engines failures, Procede 1. At this point would BMS acknowledge a problem? If not at what number would they? I would ask the same of Shiv or GIAC if their product was under this scrutiny.

This is a fair question.

[vasillalov]

Originally Posted by packinDSS

Mike,

I haven't read this thread end to end LOL it’s too long. But it seems that we have had two engines blow up using JB3 and none using Procede? Granted it's debatable as to whether it was the JB3 or not..........

So my question is that if we were to fast forward a year from now and these numbers looked like this... JB3 6 engines failures, Procede 1. At this point would BMS acknowledge a problem? If not at what number would they? I would ask the same of Shiv if his product was under this scrutiny.

I would venture a guess and say that NEITHER will because by that time, JB3 and Procede V4 will be both obsolete at which point both manufacturers will simply wipe their hands clean with "That product is no longer current and you should upgrade to our latest and greatest".

[DefactoM6]

Originally Posted by enrita

You missunderstood his post, giac maps new timing tables which basically means the dme is aware of the amount of boost pushed and can take the necessary measures to counter knock . Basically with jb3 the dme will back timings if knock occur but in relation to 8 psi, not 16+ psi. The result is too less timing beeing pulled.
Since V4 can read both can timings and knock sensor it can than proactively lower boost and back timings if knock sensor goes wild.

Just because it's aware of higher boost being pushed does not mean that GIAC has modified any knock sensor parameters. I'd be willing to bet that on the GIAC tunes, the same 3-4 degrees of timing are pulled in the event that a knock event occurs, just like stock. What we all know they do not have is something that trips a stock-like map in the event that a meth failure occurs, let alone progressive mapping for meth.

Originally Posted by dzenno

So you "know" that with GIAC's timing tables that in this case they'll drop timing "more" than 3-4 they typically do with 8psi stock tune?

+1

Originally Posted by R1000K3

20+ PSI FTW?

I have reasons to believe a proper tune, good supporting mods including meth and 98 octane RON pump gas (US 93 octane) can be used with high boost like 20 PSI. I’ve been running 20+ PSI now for some time and this includes more than a thousand WOT’s and a lot of real high speed runs on the Autobahn in Germany. Sevak’s failure came at lower boost than this and I don’t think he have hade the time and possibilities to run max boost (at a lower level) as much as I have done. The differences between our cars are mainly the following (me left, he right):

- Vishnu Autotune vs. JB3 with 12 ohm resistors
- M10 vs. M8
- Pure meth vs. some initial use of 80/20 meth/water

Our meth controllers are the same and we have used the same settings. The left combination has survived hard punishment but not the right. No one can for sure say that one or several of the parameters can be removed without problems on a 20+ PSI level.

The reason I believe (or rather is hoping) I can feel relatively safe still using 20+ PSI is that this is no more cylinder pressure than FB-IS and Hotrod182 have been operating with when they have pushed over 500 whp with NO2. 20 PSI creates a lot less cylinder pressure than they have been operating. The typhical power level for a N54 engine at 17 PSI with meth is about 400 whp. These 17 PSI represents 200 whp since the engine is about 200 hp at zero boost. In order to increase the whp by 100 hp from 400 to 500 whp the boost would need to be raised with about 50%, i.e. from 17 to 25+ PSI. This would create about the same cylinder pressure as a NO2 supported engine that produces about 500 whp.

If this approximation is correct, which I think it is, it is certainly not the boost at around 20 PSI that kills the engine, it is instead insufficient meth flow or the tune or a combination of these when running high boost.

Why am I making this analyze? The reason is to get an understanding if I need to reduce the boost from 20+ PSI, and it is not obvious to me this is needed based on above.

Lets hear to what the tuners and others comments are to these speculations

Unfortunately, this logic does not really reveal anything about the relative capability of the motors, setups, or anything else...it's really just bench racing.

Cylinder pressure has many other factors, the #pounds of boost is somewhat insignificant. Ignition timing, IAT, barometric pressure, altitude, etc are all influences...timing especially. And since I'm quite sure that 20psi is at or past the choke point of the compressor maps on our turbos...it just seems silly and pointless, to be completely honest. The increase in CFM output undoubtedly is experiencing diminished gains per pound as we get higher and higher in psi...while increasing IATs (yes, even with meth), and pumping losses (that 20psi isn't just created by the compressor side of the equation...)

Basically, timing, the big thing everyone is harping on here...is one of the most relevant discussions that we could possibly have when talking about cylinder pressures.

[enrita]

Bms has aknowledge the problem and advising high boosters to lower it and log timings.
Me? I am pushing shit loads of power on v4 and preatty confident autotune will
Find the perfect spot.

[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

Originally Posted by R1000K3

Thanks for the engagement

No I have yet no dyno runs or RL-logs that proves 20+ PSI creates a lot more power. These are currently based on ass-dyno readings the strong impresson when a switch back and forth between 17.5 PSI and 20 PSI. 17.5 PSI is not fun anymore . This is what the senses report. But yes, data is needed and worth a lot more, and there is no reason to blow the engine if 20+ PSI is a significant risk.

Some more data might help your cause, but i think its a soft subject promoting 20psi+ being safe at this point.

Originally Posted by vasillalov

....aaaah! Somewhere around here the truth wants to come out! The truth is that a well written ECU reflash will always be safer and more capable when it comes to ignition timing, boost and reaction to adverse engine events.

As a side note, GIAC is not peddling around with el-cheap-o cars like the JDMs, Honda and Toyotas. These guys have been tuning Audi, Porsche, BMW and even Bentleys for over a decade.

Does anyone honestly believe here that GIAC will release a tune that does not include a timing remap as part of it's software and risk massively expensive engines in the above mentioned brands?

I am not saying that their software is safe to run with METH because I have not data to prove or disprove such a claim.

On the other hand, it seems to me that with the rate at which Procede is improving (quite commendable actually) this thing will become a true standalone some day.

Seriously.... we get it, you get paid a lot from GIAC, but how much is the question?

In all seriousness, the remapping of tables is good, dont disagree.

edit - But if the procede like I just said, comes with its own offsets built in, its just a DIFFERENT way of doing the samething, which is reducing ignition at the starting point.

Its like taking a 757 vs a 777 plane to the same destination, does either of them get anywhere any quicker? no.

[alextremo]

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

That is false. When the meth failsafe is tripped during a WOT run timing is instantly dropped and the throttle is instantly closed. Much faster than the 10hz one could sample off the CAN bus because it's triggered off an analog signal sampled at 100s of hz.

Mike

I'll admit I know very little about how the JB3 works and generally stay out of these discussions. Can you explain then the mechanics of how timing is instantly dropped with the JB3 when meth flow stops mid-run?

Please don't take this as an attack. If the JB3 really does this, it would be good to know and would stop a lot of these back and forth jabs.

I get the feeling from your comments that you're confusing autotuning as a safetly measure with meth flow map switching in this scenario. In the case of a meth failure, the idea is that the loss of meth flow triggers the PROcede to reduce timing immediately via CPS offsetting, not knock as interpreted from the DME.

[R1000K3]

Originally Posted by DefactoM6

Unfortunately, this logic does not really reveal anything about the relative capability of the motors, setups, or anything else...it's really just bench racing.

Cylinder pressure has many other factors, the #pounds of boost is somewhat insignificant. Ignition timing, IAT, barometric pressure, altitude, etc are all influences...timing especially.

I totally agree that e.g 17 PSI boost can be a lot more dangerous than 19 PSI depending on other factors than the actual boost. What I'm trying to do is to kill the myth that there is a distinct border between safe operation and catastrophe at e.g. about 17 PSI, and based on my experience to claim boost above this point may be reasonable safe if properly orchestrated by the tune and supporting mods.

[Ilma]

Originally Posted by themyst

Wrong. The procede is constantly monitoring the CAN knock reading for any instances where it can intervene before the DME does.

See the log below. This log is at 18.5 +/- psi, and if you look at Debug Byte 2 (autotune ignition correction) even though everything powerwise (boost, timing) looks fine, it is adding in very small amounts of IC to compensate for a possible KR event. The JB3 can't do this. Perhaps I am wrong, maybe Shiv or Adrian can chime in.

That's a beatiful datalog Your car is obvioulsy very happy.

I can see the point you are trying to make.

Your autotune ignition correction increased from 0% to around 3% even though you were not experiencing any knock events according to your timing curve. So there must be something proactive going on in the background.

Might be a bit of that hidden background correction that Shiv mentioned earlier

But 3% ignition correction is next to nothing.......maybe 2/10th's of one degree of advance if that.

There is no doubt in my mind that if you have any active ignition correction going on, then you have some proactive timing retard occuring. At 30% ignition correction on my car, I see about 1 degree of retard at mid rpm's.

But with zero ignition correction, you have just that......no active timing being subtracted.

I think the only way Procede is going to know if it needs to introduce substantial timing correction is if the knock sensors indicate a need for the DME to drop timing.

So to summarize.....

If you are running 100% ignition correction and have autotune turned off.....Procede will proactively always be reducing your timing advance by 4-6degrees in order to Prevent the occurence of a knock event.

If you have zero ignition correction and autotune turned on......then Procede will reactively increase your ignition correction automatically to a safer level.

But I believe the trigger for this mechanism to take place is the occurence of knock events in the first place. So in that sense it is after the fact......not before.

[Mike@N54Tuning.com]

Originally Posted by packinDSS

Mike,

I haven't read this thread end to end LOL it’s too long. But it seems that we have had two engines blow up using JB3 and none using Procede? Granted it's debatable as to whether it was the JB3 or not..........

So my question is that if we were to fast forward a year from now and these numbers looked like this... JB3 6 engines failures, Procede 1. At this point would BMS acknowledge a problem? If not at what number would they? I would ask the same of Shiv or GIAC if their product was under this scrutiny.

This is a fair question.

There are two engines that blew up with the PROcede that I know of. On the two with the JB3 one was running large turbos > 20psi, the other 18-19psi, both relying on meth for octane. And if you read the first post it's a warning against running these power and boost levels long term. There are risks. There are many more JB3s out there than PROcede and many JB3 guys who really like to push things so I would not be surprised to see more failures in the aggressive group. If you want to play sometimes you gotta pay. If you want to be safe long term run default maps and lower power levels. It's really as simple as that.

Mike

[enrita]

Defactom6: when you reflash and make a tune
You adjust ALL tables. This means the dme is full aware of the boost pushed,timing etc and can take the preventive measures necessary to avoid knocking hard.
This is the basic of a well done flash.

[enrita]

There are no engines that blew up with procede v3 and v4 . Sorry but this is pissing me off... Get a hold of your customers and tell them to run the preset maps up to 7 to avoid more failures till maybe jb4 comes out.
Not everybody has 10k to shed for the fun of it or because apparently the meth kit stopped working....
I am just trying to save some money from other people...

[bmwzimmer]

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

There are two engines that blew up with the PROcede that I know of. On the two with the JB3 one was running large turbos > 20psi, the other 18-19psi, both relying on meth for octane. And if you read the first post it's a warning against running these power and boost levels long term. There are risks. There are many more JB3s out there than PROcede and many JB3 guys who really like to push things so I would not be surprised to see more failures in the aggressive group. If you want to play sometimes you gotta pay. If you want to be safe long term run default maps and lower power levels. It's really as simple as that.

Mike

Please provide more information on these two cases. What were their screen names and what did they pay to repair the damage?

We know the 2 JB3 guys and exactly what the repair will cost but it's so fuzzy about the 2 Procede failures. Can you provide evidence?

Thanks

[Ilma]

Originally Posted by shifterboy45

judgement calls on boost numbers will always be inaccurate with out defining the cylinder operating environment.

simple tests give simple results.

finding the knock "ceiling" of an engine works well with n/a cars because the cylinder pressures are lower overall, and a disruption is slightly damaging, but not dangerous. when you raise the cylinder pressures by "forcing" an air/fuel charge in to cylinder, the temp/pressures increases expotentailly.. now you have to combat that with a fuel that has a increase knock resistance, and hope for the best. so eliminating knock cant be judged by riding the knock sensing system (if u want to engine ot live for a while) - a baselne (lower in power) has to be established as a starting point and taken intermittently while watching the cylinder environment changes. if the changes are favorable, then an increase can be made, until the engine doesnt like it anymore (but still under the ceiling) this takes time because you have to start at a lower level of boost and reasonable timing.

im not promoting any type of tune, but you can now see the benefit of waiting for a tuning package that has had some road testing (i.e. extensive test on the dyno) ... at that point u can see some of the variable in cylinder temp, and correct them before they get out of check.

but you can chose to do it the ol' fashion way, it works too, but takes a lot longer and you cant control a lot of variable that DO happen.

an increase in boost without a predetermined plan on how to combat (eliminate knock) is futile. 3 key principles that make an engine run -- air -- fuel -- spark -- let any of those out of you immediate control, well its asking for trouble

I love the fundamental logic of your posts!

I guess for me the question is whether it is considered in the realm of "still safe" to allow for a single drop of 3 degrees in the timing curve with a subsequent recovery and rise.......

Or should I tune for zero knock events alltogether and leave some power on the table?

[Mike@N54Tuning.com]

Originally Posted by alextremo

I'll admit I know very little about how the JB3 works and generally stay out of these discussions. Can you explain then the mechanics of how timing is instantly dropped with the JB3 when meth flow stops mid-run?

Please don't take this as an attack. If the JB3 really does this, it would be good to know and would stop a lot of these back and forth jabs.

I get the feeling from your comments that you're confusing autotuning as a safetly measure with meth flow map switching in this scenario. In the case of a meth failure, the idea is that the loss of meth flow triggers the PROcede to reduce timing immediately via CPS offsetting, not knock as interpreted from the DME.

Sure thing it's simple. Timing is mapped by boost in the ECU. When the boost is over target is drops timing instantly. You can see the same effect in reverse during a high speed manual shift. Timing will instantly shoot up to 20 degrees while the ECU is under the impression boost is close to zero. So when the JB3 failsafe triggers it pushes the ECU boost way over target giving an instant timing drop and throttle closure. I'll ask BMS to send a log over w/ the new G4 since it logs everything in one easy to read chart.

Mike

[techlogik]

Originally Posted by cn555ic

I honestly can say that the way Procede is set up with the meth, I feel very confident and safe about using it. The only thing not safe IMO is the fact the meth is highly flammable when using a very high meth/water. I can't speak for any other meth systems with corresponding tunes but

I don't disagree. But it has to be approached by the tuners as a requirement for the fail-safe to be setup and working properly in order to enable it.

HPF has done a fine job with this on the M3 Turbo setup and their piggyback/meth/race setting.

One customer blew an engine. HPF on their dime took the car, tore the engine down, did a complete analysis and posted it on the forums for all to see. The verdict, the customer doing a self install screwed up the Meth install and it wasn't working properly. The owner bought a local hardware store piece to replace a missing one in the puzzle. This actually led to the failure of the meth not working properly and the engine imploding.

Props to HPF because they helped the guy out, got the engine rebuilt and he went Stage 3 after that fiasco and did a fantastic breakdown and analysis. They knew if you installed and ran the car exactly as they designed/tuned it, it is basically impossible to hurt the engine.

This attitude that you can do what you want as a customer at your own risk doesn't sit well with me. If the customer's were so smart and knew all the risk, they would be doing their own tunes, and JB/Procede/GIAC wouldn't be around. Just my two cents.

[alextremo]

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

Sure thing it's simple. Timing is mapped by boost in the ECU. When the boost is over target is drops timing instantly. You can see the same effect in reverse during a high speed manual shift. Timing will instantly shoot up to 20 degrees while the ECU is under the impression boost is close to zero. So when the JB3 failsafe triggers it pushes the ECU boost way over target giving an instant timing drop and throttle closure. I'll ask BMS to send a log over w/ the new G4 since it logs everything in one easy to read chart.

Mike

Thanks for the response Mike. So you're saying that the JB3 giving the ECU a manufactured high boost value has the same end result as the PROcede giving the ECU an altered CPS value? Logs showing the inputs and outputs of this with adequate resolution to understand any differences in the length of time it takes to enact the desired change would be great!

[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

Originally Posted by Ilma

That's a beatiful datalog Your car is obvioulsy very happy.

I can see the point you are trying to make.

Your autotune ignition correction increased from 0% to around 3% even though you were not experiencing any knock events according to your timing curve. So there must be something proactive going on in the background.

Might be a bit of that hidden background correction that Shiv mentioned earlier

But 3% ignition correction is next to nothing.......maybe 2/10th's of one degree of advance if that.

There is no doubt in my mind that if you have any active ignition correction going on, then you have some proactive timing retard occuring. At 30% ignition correction on my car, I see about 1 degree of retard at mid rpm's.

But with zero ignition correction, you have just that......no active timing being subtracted.

I think the only way Procede is going to know if it needs to introduce substantial timing correction is if the knock sensors indicate a need for the DME to drop timing.

So to summarize.....

If you are running 100% ignition correction and have autotune turned off.....Procede will proactively always be reducing your timing advance by 4-6degrees in order to Prevent the occurence of a knock event.

If you have zero ignition correction and autotune turned on......then Procede will reactively increase your ignition correction automatically to a safer level.

But I believe the trigger for this mechanism to take place is the occurence of knock events in the first place. So in that sense it is after the fact......not before.

A little more info on ignition correction, between the aggression level, ignition correction and boost level there are weighted (hidden) map templates so to speak in the procede. So despite having 0% ic correction, there is some safety in theory as it doesnt still try to run the same ignition as say a stock ECU.

When you start adding in IC% what it really means is its a weight of what % of those templates to be using, given all the other conditions.

Its a little complex, and im sure shiv can explain it better, but the important thing is there is a proactive approach.

I think you kind of hit on that... just tried to clarify it for others.

[OpenFlash]

The real safety the Procede affords is not running full aggression (high boost, full timing) UNTIL methanol is flowing. That's when the engine is more likely to detonate as it transitions from no boost to full boost. And with methanol flow always lagging behind .5-1 second, it's also the time that an engine is most likely to ping.

Shiv

[DefactoM6]

Originally Posted by enrita

Defactom6: when you reflash and make a tune
You adjust ALL tables. This means the dme is full aware of the boost pushed,timing etc and can take the preventive measures necessary to avoid knocking hard.
This is the basic of a well done flash.

A well done flash does involve the remapping of fuel, timing, and obviously boost. However, the preventative measures that the ECU takes will remain the same unless they are changed, which one would have little cause to change if the car is tuned properly. Even if one specifies 10 degrees of advance at WOT at 5,650 RPM, with a calculated expected load equal roughly to 16psi, targeting 2 points below lambda (12.7, if one is running pure gasoline) which translates to 85% duty cycle on the injectors, which differs from the stock ECU's 14 degrees of advance, approximate target of 8 psi, and roughly 70% duty cycle on a targeted 1.5 points below lambda, what's going to happen when the car knocks? I would be willing to bet that on both the stock and tuned car, both pull the same amount of timing. Is the end result still different? Yes, as one would expect out of one car running 14 degrees specified advance vs. 10. Is the delta the same? Absolutely.

This is really just off topic conjecture. The bottom line with the Procede's autotuning is that it takes many variables into account when determining the amount of timing and fuel correction, as well as boost. A broad overview of what it takes into account can be found in other threads. The exact nature of how it tunes and compensates for these variables is how Shiv and crew take money home at the end of the day. Yes, autotuning reacts based on knock. But saying that the only thing that autotune works on is knock is patently absurd. There are many variables which it takes into account, which all tally up to a system that is supposed to avoid coming close to that point. The JB3 does not do any of this right now. That is a fact. There will be a BMS system which does this in the future. But in the here and now, there is no BMS system which does this. The BMS crew can point fingers at the Shiv crew and say "look at guys running meth on procedes with 0 IC" all they want...the bottom line is, until there is evidence documenting the conditions under which Sevak's car was running, that is an apples to oranges comparison. The Procede cars with 0 IC have a system that actively monitors elemental variables, and determined that it is safe to run 0 IC under those conditions without approaching the knock threshold. The JB3 lives in a vacuum world where it is oblivious to conditions. When spraying enough meth at low enough boost levels in the right conditions, this may or may not be enough to keep the stock ECU satisfied IN THAT MOMENT. That is up to the end user to decide for him or herself. In Sevak's case, it clearly wasn't.

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by DefactoM6

A well done flash does involve the remapping of fuel, timing, and obviously boost. However, the preventative measures that the ECU takes will remain the same unless they are changed, which one would have little cause to change if the car is tuned properly. Even if one specifies 10 degrees of advance at WOT at 5,650 RPM, with a calculated expected load equal roughly to 16psi, targeting 2 points below lambda (12.7, if one is running pure gasoline) which translates to 85% duty cycle on the injectors, which differs from the stock ECU's 14 degrees of advance, approximate target of 8 psi, and roughly 70% duty cycle on a targeted 1.5 points below lambda, what's going to happen when the car knocks? I would be willing to bet that on both the stock and tuned car, both pull the same amount of timing. Is the end result still different? Yes, as one would expect out of one car running 14 degrees specified advance vs. 10. Is the delta the same? Absolutely.

This is really just off topic conjecture. The bottom line with the Procede's autotuning is that it takes many variables into account when determining the amount of timing and fuel correction, as well as boost. A broad overview of what it takes into account can be found in other threads. The exact nature of how it tunes and compensates for these variables is how Shiv and crew take money home at the end of the day. Yes, autotuning reacts based on knock. But saying that the only thing that autotune works on is knock is patently absurd. There are many variables which it takes into account, which all tally up to a system that is supposed to avoid coming close to that point. The JB3 does not do any of this right now. That is a fact. There will be a BMS system which does this in the future. But in the here and now, there is no BMS system which does this. The BMS crew can point fingers at the Shiv crew and say "look at guys running meth on procedes with 0 IC" all they want...the bottom line is, until there is evidence documenting the conditions under which Sevak's car was running, that is an apples to oranges comparison. The Procede cars with 0 IC have a system that actively monitors elemental variables, and determined that it is safe to run 0 IC under those conditions without approaching the knock threshold. The JB3 lives in a vacuum world where it is oblivious to conditions. When spraying enough meth at low enough boost levels in the right conditions, this may or may not be enough to keep the stock ECU satisfied IN THAT MOMENT. That is up to the end user to decide for him or herself. In Sevak's case, it clearly wasn't.

+1

[jpsimon]

well said!

Originally Posted by DefactoM6

A well done flash does involve the remapping of fuel, timing, and obviously boost. However, the preventative measures that the ECU takes will remain the same unless they are changed, which one would have little cause to change if the car is tuned properly. Even if one specifies 10 degrees of advance at WOT at 5,650 RPM, with a calculated expected load equal roughly to 16psi, targeting 2 points below lambda (12.7, if one is running pure gasoline) which translates to 85% duty cycle on the injectors, which differs from the stock ECU's 14 degrees of advance, approximate target of 8 psi, and roughly 70% duty cycle on a targeted 1.5 points below lambda, what's going to happen when the car knocks? I would be willing to bet that on both the stock and tuned car, both pull the same amount of timing. Is the end result still different? Yes, as one would expect out of one car running 14 degrees specified advance vs. 10. Is the delta the same? Absolutely.

This is really just off topic conjecture. The bottom line with the Procede's autotuning is that it takes many variables into account when determining the amount of timing and fuel correction, as well as boost. A broad overview of what it takes into account can be found in other threads. The exact nature of how it tunes and compensates for these variables is how Shiv and crew take money home at the end of the day. Yes, autotuning reacts based on knock. But saying that the only thing that autotune works on is knock is patently absurd. There are many variables which it takes into account, which all tally up to a system that is supposed to avoid coming close to that point. The JB3 does not do any of this right now. That is a fact. There will be a BMS system which does this in the future. But in the here and now, there is no BMS system which does this. The BMS crew can point fingers at the Shiv crew and say "look at guys running meth on procedes with 0 IC" all they want...the bottom line is, until there is evidence documenting the conditions under which Sevak's car was running, that is an apples to oranges comparison. The Procede cars with 0 IC have a system that actively monitors elemental variables, and determined that it is safe to run 0 IC under those conditions without approaching the knock threshold. The JB3 lives in a vacuum world where it is oblivious to conditions. When spraying enough meth at low enough boost levels in the right conditions, this may or may not be enough to keep the stock ECU satisfied IN THAT MOMENT. That is up to the end user to decide for him or herself. In Sevak's case, it clearly wasn't.