[335dsleeper]

Yea, agree. The guy I purchased them from is sending 4 tested Injectors. Everything should be good... I have plenty of time.

Oh, gotta start looking at the best way to install the valve springs. I hoping I can do it without pulling the head, but we'll see.

[nicklockard]

So, I must say I'm really enjoying this thread. 335dsleeper, you must have aerospace grade, titanium, basketball sized cojones, or a discretionary income budget of a Saudi prince; but in either case, I'm vicariously thrilled to be hot rodding the shite out of the 335D through you!

One question though: since we'd kind of talked about it in the 'advanced tuning and mods' catch-all thread--have you sourced any plug-n-play OEM F-series injectors to try? I'd think this is just low-hanging fruit before modding injectors. If you've already gone down the modding injectors rabbit hole, I'll understand. I just would love to see some results with OEM+ modification.

Over at tdiclub, that was one easy upgrade path for the masses--we'd found that you can gain a TON of performance per dollar spent by bolting on upgrades from any particular engine's 'big brother' engine series. And, it works with minimal modification--often just changing one parameter in the ECU or recalibrating something. We called this the 'OEM+' upgrade path.

Just thinking out loud here--send me and my rambling post to that other thread if this is too much of a side-track.

PS: there's one other really low-hanging fruit that I haven't seen anyone here try yet: fuel coolers make a big difference at WOT 1/4 mile runs and high performance zone. They're stupidly cheap and easy to integrate. Cooler fuel is more dense, and that means you can squeeze more in a given fraction of time at a given injection pressure. Another simple OEM+ upgrade we'd used over at tdiclub.com. Surely there must be one, or just use an off the shelf small air to liquid heat exchanger integrated prior to the fuel temperature sensor.

[lnxguy]

Nick, it's funny you mention fuel coolers.. I was under my '05 BEW today ripping things off and was thinking 'Why doesn't the 335d have this?' (BEW has the fuel cooler under the car)

[nicklockard]

Originally Posted by lnxguy

Nick, it's funny you mention fuel coolers.. I was under my '05 BEW today ripping things off and was thinking 'Why doesn't the 335d have this?' (BEW has the fuel cooler under the car)

Heh, yep! Remember when we discovered how much hp you could add just by tacking an OEM fuel cooler and OEM in-tank fuel pump from the automatic onto the manual ALH cars? That added something like 20 hp to a ~125 hp car! (most people were up there in power already from stage 1, 1.5, or early version, (olden days) stage 2 tunes or nozzles.)

I remember the discovery path went something like this: nozzles for $400 got a 90 hp car up to 110 hp. Nozzles and stage 1.5 tune ($400 + $500 = $900) got a 90 hp car to 140 hp. Adding the fuel cooler and in-tank pump OEM+ upgrades gave another 15-20 hp on mid and top-end. By then you're clutch was toast, so then you'd fall down that rabbit hole of SMF based clutch upgrades and all kinds of expensive fun

[335dsleeper]

Originally Posted by nicklockard

So, I must say I'm really enjoying this thread. 335dsleeper, you must have aerospace grade, titanium, basketball sized cojones, or a discretionary income budget of a Saudi prince; but in either case, I'm vicariously thrilled to be hot rodding the shite out of the 335D through you!

One question though: since we'd kind of talked about it in the 'advanced tuning and mods' catch-all thread--have you sourced any plug-n-play OEM F-series injectors to try? I'd think this is just low-hanging fruit before modding injectors. If you've already gone down the modding injectors rabbit hole, I'll understand. I just would love to see some results with OEM+ modification.

Over at tdiclub, that was one easy upgrade path for the masses--we'd found that you can gain a TON of performance per dollar spent by bolting on upgrades from any particular engine's 'big brother' engine series. And, it works with minimal modification--often just changing one parameter in the ECU or recalibrating something. We called this the 'OEM+' upgrade path.

Just thinking out loud here--send me and my rambling post to that other thread if this is too much of a side-track.

PS: there's one other really low-hanging fruit that I haven't seen anyone here try yet: fuel coolers make a big difference at WOT 1/4 mile runs and high performance zone. They're stupidly cheap and easy to integrate. Cooler fuel is more dense, and that means you can squeeze more in a given fraction of time at a given injection pressure. Another simple OEM+ upgrade we'd used over at tdiclub.com. Surely there must be one, or just use an off the shelf small air to liquid heat exchanger integrated prior to the fuel temperature sensor.

HAHAHAHA Thanks man! I'm pretty excited about my 335d. I haven't had it a year yet and I'm pretty happy how things have progressed. Actually, if you take my actual time at home this past year, I've really only had 7 or so months to get it from stock form to how she sits. I'll take that.

I have the fuel system upgrades and will be installing valve springs to hopefully maximize the turbos along with a few other little things like actually building the 3" exhaust instead of just talking about it. I think this coming summer will be rather impressive for the 335d. Time will tell.

I have not considered a fuel cooler. Honestly, I have had diesels before but this is the first I've actually been going this in-depth with modifying. I had a pretty wicked 6.0 Excursion but, all the trial and error/hard work were done by others. Buy this and install that equals xxx whp, kind of a no brainer. My TDI was just deleted and Malone tuned. Other than that, I'm new to the diesel platforms. I have a fair amount of experience with gas VW's and BMW's though, to include a few pretty rare cars and a pretty wicked turbo BMW I built. So, I'm still learning the diesel stuff, and a few members have helped immensely. I'm confident I'll get the car where I want it in the near future...

I was not able confirm if the F series injectors are an upgrade. I discuss this with DWR but I don't think he was able to find out for sure. It seems so based on power output but, I'm not sure if there a bolt PnP solution.

[lnxguy]

Originally Posted by nicklockard

Heh, yep! Remember when we discovered how much hp you could add just by tacking an OEM fuel cooler and OEM in-tank fuel pump from the automatic onto the manual ALH cars? That added something like 20 hp to a ~125 hp car! (most people were up there in power already from stage 1, 1.5, or early version, (olden days) stage 2 tunes or nozzles.)

I remember the discovery path went something like this: nozzles for $400 got a 90 hp car up to 110 hp. Nozzles and stage 1.5 tune ($400 + $500 = $900) got a 90 hp car to 140 hp. Adding the fuel cooler and in-tank pump OEM+ upgrades gave another 15-20 hp on mid and top-end. By then you're clutch was toast, so then you'd fall down that rabbit hole of SMF based clutch upgrades and all kinds of expensive fun

I remember adding the PD liftpump along with a 11mm (from an auto) with a pair of R520s. Holy **** did that wake up the car, lol!

[335dsleeper]

Originally Posted by lnxguy

I remember adding the PD liftpump along with a 11mm (from an auto) with a pair of R520s. Holy **** did that wake up the car, lol!

I'll be running a Kenny Bell Boost-a-pump on my intank pump. Hopefully, it'll provide enough fuel to support the modified HPFP.

[DWR]

The 4.0d injectors are dimensionally very close to the 335d injectors. I cannot get my hands on dimensioned drawings, but look at the picture below. Critical sealing areas appear to line up. Only one way to know for sure. Clearly, connecting pipes from the rail would need to be modified. I don't think these injectors flow more than the 335d injectors.

The injectors below do flow more. They are for newer BMW diesels. Unfortunately, they do not appear compatible with our engine.

[nicklockard]

Thanks DWR, but can't we just swap out the nozzles like we did with Tdi's? We'd have to have customized flow calibration/adaptations files, but there are people who can do that.

[DWR]

Originally Posted by nicklockard

Heh, yep! Remember when we discovered how much hp you could add just by tacking an OEM fuel cooler and OEM in-tank fuel pump from the automatic onto the manual ALH cars? That added something like 20 hp to a ~125 hp car! (most people were up there in power already from stage 1, 1.5, or early version, (olden days) stage 2 tunes or nozzles.)

The reason the cooler fuel added HP had little to do with fuel density, as many theorize. Our pumps work differently than the TDIs and in a way that keeps fuel cooler. The temperature difference is worth about 2% HP. Cooler fuel has a greater effect on the way the software controls the engine, especially in the TDI (timing adjustment). But multi injection changes the way timing effects performance. A cooler certainly won't hurt performance, but I think anyone expecting to gain 15% HP will be very disappointed. On the other hand, this mod is so easy and inexpensive it seems worth trying.

[nicklockard]

Originally Posted by DWR

The reason the cooler fuel added HP had little to do with fuel density, as many theorize. Our pumps work differently than the TDIs and in a way that keeps fuel cooler. The temperature difference is worth about 2% HP. Cooler fuel has a greater effect on the way the software controls the engine, especially in the TDI (timing adjustment). But multi injection changes the way timing effects performance. A cooler certainly won't hurt performance, but I think anyone expecting to gain 15% HP will be very disappointed. On the other hand, this mod is so easy and inexpensive it seems worth trying.

Yep, didn't want to overcomplicate it for people. I'm aware of that. But it's worth more than 2% Don't know exactly how much, but it seems to affect transient throttle response a lot on the Tdi's: much crisper throttle response in midrange and upper rpm range with more absolute power on top. It's real. Fuel temperature shows up in lots of ECU (DDE) maps. And the reason the DDE is making so many changes is because it knows cooler fuel is more mass dense. So density is the root cause, and DDE changes are the effective primary cause.

We learned this long ago.

PS: Tdi's have had multi injection events for a while. It's primarily for combustion rate shaping at low rpm's where you have time to make a difference (to reduce emissions). At higher rpm's the total window of available time to affect combustion is chewed up by droplet breakup delay. At that point all that matters is the main injection mapping and of course the smoke limiting maps at WOT.

[lnxguy]

Originally Posted by nicklockard

Thanks DWR, but can't we just swap out the nozzles like we did with Tdi's? We'd have to have customized flow calibration/adaptations files, but there are people who can do that.

Yeah, entire injectors shouldn't be needed. There's gotta be a bigger set of nozzles out there somewhere.

[335dsleeper]

There are some being modified...

[lnxguy]

Originally Posted by 335dsleeper

There are some being modified...

That was never a very successful way of doing things in the TDI world. (if you're talking about increasing the hole size on the nozzle itself)

[335dsleeper]

Not sure why it never worked for VW. It works fine for domestics.

I hope we can get it to work...

[nicklockard]

In Tdi land, lots of folks tried edm machining (at least in the time frame of 2002-2009ish) the holes larger, or adding holes. EDM could not meet the dimensional tolerance specifications for taper, which was a critical design parameter to acceptable atomization.

Critical DIMS were:

• A: Centroid angle of hole pattern grouping
• B: Angle from each holes axis to centroid angle
• C: Hole inside diameter
• D: Cylinder-side conical taper angle of each hole
• E: Injector-side conical taper angle of each hole
• F: Total deviations of hole pattern from pattern circle or fallout >x for any one hole

Trying to add holes or increase hole diameters of made DIMS D and E fall out of tolerance. Plus, EDM left sputtered crud on the insides which interfered with needle seating and good liftoff behavior. There were all kinds of problems with leaking, dribbling, and streaming injector nozzles. Some pistons melted, some just flirted with disaster and stopped using them.

I'm not sure what the 335D nozzle holes look like up under high magnification, but willing to bet $5 they look a lot like Tdi nozzle holes that are tapered inside and out.

What type of machining process is your secret shop using? I'll admit there might have been big improvements since then--I really don't know.

[335dsleeper]

It's not a secret shop. It's industrial injection service in Utah. They've been modding Bosch piezo injectors and HPFPs for a hot minute. Not sure how they compare but, they weren't concerned with modifying them at all.

[nicklockard]

Originally Posted by lnxguy

Yeah, entire injectors shouldn't be needed. There's gotta be a bigger set of nozzles out there somewhere.

We need someone who really knows the Bosch injector catalogue inside and out. Know anyone?

[lnxguy]

Originally Posted by nicklockard

We need someone who really knows the Bosch injector catalogue inside and out. Know anyone?

Lots of smart Fins on the TDI board, I'm sure one of those guys would know.

[335dsleeper]

Originally Posted by lnxguy

Lots of smart Fins on the TDI board, I'm sure one of those guys would know.

That'd be great. I can get injectors pretty cheap. I foot the bill of someone that has access and knowledge on Bosch piezo injectors and nozzles. I literally don't have a clue about them and only based the nozzle modification based off success in the domestic diesel market.

[E_Fahlman]

OP: If you're runnning a Stage 2+ Tune why do you also still have a JBD Installed?

[Got-Torque]

Originally Posted by 335dsleeper

That'd be great. I can get injectors pretty cheap. I foot the bill of someone that has access and knowledge on Bosch piezo injectors and nozzles. I literally don't have a clue about them and only based the nozzle modification based off success in the domestic diesel market.

I know a guy... Does anyone know the bosch part number for the injector or the nozzle off hand? I can give him a call and see if he can find a direct swap upgraded nozzle or how much to build a set.