[themyst]

Put it this way, the jb3/4 still does not have the ability to retard timing to prevent those KR events in the first place. If anyone wants to see proof of this, go to my Procede logs posted in cold weather where poor fuel more than likely caused my ignition correction to skyrocket, protecting from knock in the first place.

Link http://www.e90post.com/forums/showth...=461792&page=2

The Procede retarded upwards of 3 degrees of ignition due to the poor fuel preventing the KR events in the first place. When fuel and conditions permit, the autotune will pull back the added ignition retard and increase boost. If all JB3/4 users would drop below their tuners recommendations we'd see less KR, but unfortunately like most others, they want max performance. The Procede protects misinformed users against themselves, and that alone is worth it's weight in gold.

[AltecBX]

Facts are facts. You'll read ignition correction is useful. Some die by it, and others say there are thousands of cars on the road with no problem without it.
My question is to the developer that doesn't implement it, why not just use it. It doesn't hurt to have it and you can sell more units by giving the customer that peace of mind, if you believe in it or not.

[Boostin335]

Originally Posted by AltecBX

Facts are facts. You'll read ignition correction is useful. Some die by it, and others say there are thousands of cars on the road with no problem without it.
My question is to the developer that doesn't implement it, why not just use it. It doesn't hurt to have it and you can sell more units by giving the customer that peace of mind, if you believe in it or not.

+1

[R1000K3]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

The absolute boost delta will depend on conditions/fuel. The better the conditions/fuel, the less boost delta. But it's easy enough for any Procede user to test in their given environment. With a degree of testing control, log aggression (which is essentially a corected value for average knock at max load/wot) at the normal autotuned ignition corretion. And then do the same runs, at the same boost level, but with ignition correction set to zero (a la jb4).

For reference, us 91oct guys, running just 14-15psi will see average knock ramp quickly from the default autotuning target of ~2 to a very aggressive 4-5 once timing correction is eliminated. Which would be 2 to 2.5 times more knock retard. Which is unfortunate when that is considered normal operating. The next step in the test is to go back to running normal ignition correction and raise boost until aggression climbs to this 4-5. You'll probably see that the Procede can run 1-2psi more boost, with the same average knock, than a it did when it simply raised boost with no ignition retard.

If anyone still, to this day, believes that proactive ignition retard has no effect on knock activity and engine safety margin, they are seriously deluded or just uneducated on basic engine tuning fundamentals. Running a tune without any form of ignition setpoint limiting is less desirable than running one with it. This is fact and can be proven with hard data by anyone with a CAN logging tool. Ignoring evidence and arguing otherwise only displays a lack of understanding or misinformed positive thinking.

Thanks, every single or part of a PSI counts, and the safety mechanism that is achieved by retarding the ignition when necessary is great.

[forza1976]

I Just Lol'd

Originally Posted by chesterfan1230

One of my friend just got an Alpha JB4 unit. Our cars are EXACTLY the same. Same color exterior , interior. WE BOTH have 6AT Performance mods are the same Intake, Axleback exhaust, except he has JB4 i have Procede V5. He has his snow tires on while i have my summers on in this 23 degree weather. The only difference between our cars is that I have a full coilover / m front suspension and a LSD. But at a 60 MPH the LSD does not kick in. We did two pulls on a closed track. One with him being on map 2 I believe and me being on map 1 with a max boost of 14.5
Run 1: 3rd Gear Pull from 60-120. We were both Neck to neck at 120. at 120 he was gaining an inch but nothing noticeable.

Then I switched to map 2(16 psi) and he switched to map 7(16.5 psi but he has max global boost set to 16).
Run 2: 3rd gear pull from 50-130. Neck to neck till 130. (NOTE WE both did pulls in between to allow for adaptations when switching maps).

We were not shocked at all. Our cars are exactly similar and are running the same amount of boost.
Cheers =)

[BrianMN]

Oh jeeze. Another thread saying both tunes are just as powerful in a drag race.

It's just getting funny.

[Jonny550]

Originally Posted by BrianMN

Oh jeeze. Another thread saying both tunes are just as powerful in a drag race.

It's just getting funny.

isnt that the point of both tunes to make your car go faster in a straight line.

Or have i missed the point of any tune out their in the world?

[Mike@N54Tuning.com]

Originally Posted by BrianMN

Oh jeeze. Another thread saying both tunes are just as powerful in a drag race.

It's just getting funny.

I know... everyone knows tuning is really about who can flash more lights on the dash during a race!

Mike

[Clap135]

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

I know... everyone knows tuning is really about who can flash more lights on the dash during a race!

Mike

Well if check engine lights count, you win

[BrianMN]

Originally Posted by Jon335iFL

isnt that the point of both tunes to make your car go faster in a straight line.

Or have i missed the point of any tune out their in the world?

You can't be serious. Yes you have missed the point....and don't know how a real tune can make your car perform.

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

I know... everyone knows tuning is really about who can flash more lights on the dash during a race!

Mike

Hahahaha... oh wait.

[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

Originally Posted by Jon335iFL

isnt that the point of both tunes to make your car go faster in a straight line.

Or have i missed the point of any tune out their in the world?

Driveability, Safety, Functions, control are other aspects of tunes.

People in other countries who arent into the typical drag race, straight line stuff us Ameicans like would appreciate a tune with good driveability and control. (safety is obviously top priority for all of us of course).

[enrita]

Originally Posted by Jon335iFL

isnt that the point of both tunes to make your car go faster in a straight line.

Or have i missed the point of any tune out their in the world?

Yeah go faster without blowing up your engine on a straight line.

Just be careful out there and take care of your engine.

[Sniz]

Originally Posted by Jon335iFL

isnt that the point of both tunes to make your car go faster in a straight line.

Or have i missed the point of any tune out their in the world?

I always knew you needed this


you have missed the point by a long shot.

[Mike@N54Tuning.com]

Originally Posted by onefastman

I will do my own research (as always) but like I said, terry has nothing to sell me.

So Shiv is discussing the JB4 advance on one hand while advocating his "autotuning" on the other hand which relies on DME knock intervention full time. I find this to be an interesting position to take.

The JB4 brings a few new things to the table which greatly improve the safety over the JB3. And let's be honest the JB3 has an almost flawless track record to start with with 4500+ in use over the past 2 1/2 years.

1) Full progressive methanol mapping. Instead it was too easy (as Sevak did) to misconfigure the safety and allow knock during boost build up while on meth. No more.

2) Improved absolute boost targeting means DME boost is closer to target and thus the advance set points, which are mapped on DME boost, are now lower than they are on the JB3 which had more of an under-targeting tendency. In addition targets can't float now so you know exactly how high boost will be able to go. Vs. the JB3 where it was more of an enter a setting and guess how much boost you get with it.

3) The JB4 has the ability to monitor timing/knock and computes your aggression level over a rolling average which is used in a closed fashion loop to range boost. No more driving around too aggressive for your setup. To get knock it takes boost+advance. You can lower advance or lower boost to achieve the same result and the DME already features closed loop advance with long term trims. This feature alone would have saved Enrito's motor which was knocking off his aftermarket single electrode plugs as we've seen on cars now using those plugs. After one or two runs his boost would have dropped to near stock levels.

4) Better control over the air/fuel ratio with properly sized 2.7k fueling resistors. Allowing air/fuel ratios of up to 11:1. Actually that is part of the autotuning logic. As knock count increases fuel will now increase similar to the OEM logic.

5) BMS has recently found several of the CAN commands used to fix ECU parameters for diagnostics directly influence the advance set points. The key is finding the ones that don't have any other side effects, so some more development time is needed there, but it's all just time spent and firmware updates.

Mike

[atlharry]

Originally Posted by Jon335iFL

isnt that the point of both tunes to make your car go faster in a straight line.

Or have i missed the point of any tune out their in the world?

Have you ever seen those "other" tracks? They have turns. Unanticipated surge in a turn is baaaad. That's where smoothness of power delivery is important.

If you are driving at the absolute limits of adhesion and your car is putting down a certain amount of HP, an unexpected 10 HP could be the difference that puts you into the wall.

[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

So Shiv is discussing the JB4 advance on one hand while advocating his "autotuning" on the other hand which relies on DME knock intervention full time. I find this to be an interesting position to take.

The JB4 brings a few new things to the table which greatly improve the safety over the JB3. And let's be honest the JB3 has an almost flawless track record to start with with 4500+ in use over the past 2 1/2 years.

1) Full progressive methanol mapping. Instead it was too easy (as Sevak did) to misconfigure the safety and allow knock during boost build up while on meth. No more.

2) Improved absolute boost targeting means DME boost is closer to target and thus the advance set points, which are mapped on DME boost, are now lower than they are on the JB3 which had more of an under-targeting tendency. In addition targets can't float now so you know exactly how high boost will be able to go. Vs. the JB3 where it was more of an enter a setting and guess how much boost you get with it.

3) The JB4 has the ability to monitor timing/knock and computes your aggression level over a rolling average which is used in a closed fashion loop to range boost. No more driving around too aggressive for your setup. To get knock it takes boost+advance. You can lower advance or lower boost to achieve the same result and the DME already features closed loop advance with long term trims. This feature alone would have saved Enrito's motor which was knocking off his aftermarket single electrode plugs as we've seen on cars now using those plugs. After one or two runs his boost would have dropped to near stock levels.

4) Better control over the air/fuel ratio with properly sized 2.7k fueling resistors. Allowing air/fuel ratios of up to 11:1. Actually that is part of the autotuning logic. As knock count increases fuel will now increase similar to the OEM logic.

5) BMS has recently found several of the CAN commands used to fix ECU parameters for diagnostics directly influence the advance set points. The key is finding the ones that don't have any other side effects, so some more development time is needed there, but it's all just time spent and firmware updates.

Mike

You are a true salesmen mike.

You cant BS a BS'r though

1-2 have been available for over 8 months on your competitors tune and 3 is a tricky way of saying you still cant control ignition, only work around it.

4 eh 5 ok.

[Penn999]

Originally Posted by Clap135

Well if check engine lights count, you win

LOL! I do have to agree with jp, you are a good salesman!

[moveswiftly]

Hey, I do plenty of track days myself. After testdriving a friends Procede car I felt that it was the tune for me. The point of this thread was to show that with both tunes on similar hardware now using similar boost mapping techniques they both deliver the same performance on cars that are EXACTLY like the same. Only difference being choice of tune.

[cn555ic]

Originally Posted by chesterfan1230

Hey, I do plenty of track days myself. After testdriving a friends Procede car I felt that it was the tune for me. The point of this thread was to show that with both tunes on similar hardware now using similar boost mapping techniques they both deliver the same performance on cars that are EXACTLY like the same. Only difference being choice of tune.

They deliver the same performance but one is much safer getting to the same point...Which would you prefer!! lol I prefer safety in conjunction with power thats for sure...I own my car and want to keep it as safe as possible because it is a big investment for me..

[moveswiftly]

Originally Posted by cn555ic

They deliver the same performance but one is much safer getting to the same point...Which would you prefer!! lol

Since I have the Procede I'll let you make that judgement for yourself

[BrianMN]

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

3) The JB4 has the ability to monitor timing/knock and computes your aggression level over a rolling average which is used in a closed fashion loop to range boost. No more driving around too aggressive for your setup. To get knock it takes boost+advance. You can lower advance or lower boost to achieve the same result and the DME already features closed loop advance with long term trims. This feature alone would have saved Enrito's motor which was knocking off his aftermarket single electrode plugs as we've seen on cars now using those plugs. After one or two runs his boost would have dropped to near stock levels.

Mike

haha so you're admitting that with the JB3 4500 people have been driving around too aggressive sometimes?

What's most funny is that everytime you come out with an "advancement", you say how much better it is than the current setup...which just makes it look like you've been letting people drive around with boldly inferior functionality until this 'advancement' has been made. Remember when 2.0 came out and everyone thought that made the tune wayyyyy better? now 2.0 is crap compared to this? For people that have been following this for a decent amount of time, it actually works against you to say all these 'advancements' are great...because your 'advancement's' are still inferior. So when you say "this is so much better than 2.0" you're basically saying "this is better than the previous version, but it is still quite a bit away from where it SHOULD be"

The "cheaper" price point shouldn't be such a selling point unless it's equal quality. It's sad how the cheaper price persuades so many newbs to buy it....myself included.

Again, I'm glad you guys are making improvements...but if I were you I wouldn't post up a new version unless it has equal functionality/safety/driveability as it's competition.

Mike you are a good salesman and I respect you...it's just unfortunate you can't be selling products that are innovative and superior.

[BrianMN]

Originally Posted by chesterfan1230

Hey, I do plenty of track days myself. After testdriving a friends Procede car I felt that it was the tune for me. The point of this thread was to show that with both tunes on similar hardware now using similar boost mapping techniques they both deliver the same performance on cars that are EXACTLY like the same. Only difference being choice of tune.

You mean, both cars went WOT and they accelerated similarly?

That's a very small part of the tuning game...