[stein_325i]

Originally Posted by wtwo3

How's the steering feel on your CLS btw? I have fond memories of an E43 I rented many years ago. I wouldn't mind putting an E53 on the list even though it's a little short on performance compared to the other options. My main concern with MB is some of their more recent interiors have had cases of squeaks/rattles which would drive me nuts.

Its pretty decent actually, not really up there with GM or Porsche, or much in actual feel, but its competent and natural feeling, an improvement from the E43 and better than my 540i (which I despised the steering of, among many other awful things like its poor chassis) and the last M550i I drove (which was not deserving of its M badge in any way or form outside of its engine). For its size and class though its very good, since it is a luxo-cruiser.

The engine is more so the star of the show. It retains the theater of the E43 and its loud and awesome exhaust, while being even smoother to rev and crisper in its shifts. Its a very complicated engine so probably not the best outside of warranty, but its got a Turbo I6, with a 48-Volt System and Electric Supercharger that runs off that 48-Volt system. Going into the drive when I first looked at it I thought it would be discombobulated like Volvo's T8 models, but it actually works incredibly well. The Supercharger allows for a torque-fil while the Turbo is still spooling, essentially eliminating lag, and the 48-volt system provides seamless stop start (I don't even turn it off). Paired with the 9-Speed trans it bangs on upshifts and actually provides a bit of punch when in sports mode, and smooth operator in comfort mode. It pretty much does everything I wish my 5-Series did, balancing luxury and sport. Its slower than the M550i, but I don't care about numbers anymore, most of these cars are too fast for their own good anyways. Only area of improvement I would say is the brakes are a tad light which I believe is possibly due to regeneration of some sort.

Interior also has no issues after close to three years, no creaks or rattles either which is ironic because my 5er had an un-diagnosable rattle. Only creak mine will give is if you deliberately put lots of pressure on the trim and I can get a BMW or Audi to also creak by doing the same thing, but I'm not sure why anyone would press on the trim.

Great car, although coming from a 3-series its probably best to stick to something of that size if you want something as agile or fun as the 3er. The E/CLS 53 is a bit more comfort oriented first, and of course being large is aimed at a more Gran Tourer type personality, I guess you could say a bit more "mature" for lack of a better word.

I've really enjoyed the car, but with my work changing to stay at home, my son's X3 is here while he's at college, and only needing to visit the office on rare occasions, I'm probably gonna end up replacing it next year with an SL or GT as I wanna get an AMG V8 before they go extinct.

It was actually Throttle House and Car & Driver that got my attention for the car, this was my first video I watched of them too!

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by wtwo3

I keep going back and forth between BMW either just being incompetent at properly tuning an EPS rack, or them intentionally doing it to appeal to a broader audience that prefers a "luxury" feel.

I've come to the conclusion that BMW deliberately set the cars up the way they do. We are living with the resulting set of compromises.

Reading the BMW engineer comments and the technical data through the years, it is clear suspension design, along with EPS, is part of the strategy to reduce the negative interferences from the steering wheel (driver overactions) and from the road, lateral forces through the track rod ends are both being controlled. Call it damping if we like, it takes away sensitivity.

Most BMW users have different priorities than the enthusiast, even in the M-cars. It's been clear for a few generations of models, (including M-cars), many users want a setup that is more suited to daily driving, (and added luxuries), more than the guy on the track. Halo cars are being bought more these days by those simply wanting the model, more than the finer nuances of things like steering feel. Precision and reasonable weighting, yes, but not some of the negative interference, (which is part of feedback), therefore there is bound to be something missing from our current cars.

[wtwo3]

Originally Posted by stein_325i

Its pretty decent actually, not really up there with GM or Porsche, or much in actual feel, but its competent and natural feeling, an improvement from the E43 and better than my 540i (which I despised the steering of, among many other awful things like its poor chassis) and the last M550i I drove (which was not deserving of its M badge in any way or form outside of its engine). For its size and class though its very good, since it is a luxo-cruiser.

The engine is more so the star of the show. It retains the theater of the E43 and its loud and awesome exhaust, while being even smoother to rev and crisper in its shifts. Its a very complicated engine so probably not the best outside of warranty, but its got a Turbo I6, with a 48-Volt System and Electric Supercharger that runs off that 48-Volt system. Going into the drive when I first looked at it I thought it would be discombobulated like Volvo's T8 models, but it actually works incredibly well. The Supercharger allows for a torque-fil while the Turbo is still spooling, essentially eliminating lag, and the 48-volt system provides seamless stop start (I don't even turn it off). Paired with the 9-Speed trans it bangs on upshifts and actually provides a bit of punch when in sports mode, and smooth operator in comfort mode. It pretty much does everything I wish my 5-Series did, balancing luxury and sport. Its slower than the M550i, but I don't care about numbers anymore, most of these cars are too fast for their own good anyways. Only area of improvement I would say is the brakes are a tad light which I believe is possibly due to regeneration of some sort.

Interior also has no issues after close to three years, no creaks or rattles either which is ironic because my 5er had an un-diagnosable rattle. Only creak mine will give is if you deliberately put lots of pressure on the trim and I can get a BMW or Audi to also creak by doing the same thing, but I'm not sure why anyone would press on the trim.

Great car, although coming from a 3-series its probably best to stick to something of that size if you want something as agile or fun as the 3er. The E/CLS 53 is a bit more comfort oriented first, and of course being large is aimed at a more Gran Tourer type personality, I guess you could say a bit more "mature" for lack of a better word.

I've really enjoyed the car, but with my work changing to stay at home, my son's X3 is here while he's at college, and only needing to visit the office on rare occasions, I'm probably gonna end up replacing it next year with an SL or GT as I wanna get an AMG V8 before they go extinct.

It was actually Throttle House and Car & Driver that got my attention for the car, this was my first video I watched of them too!

Thanks for the perspective. I'll definitely check out the E53. I REALLY wanted to consider a C63, but Mercedes had to go ruin it and drop a 4 cylinder hybrid into it. At that point I don't care if it offers double the performance of the M3.... I would have a VERY tough time paying that much money for a 4 banger.

[Flacht3]

I realize these cars are a different caliber but having put considerable time behind almost every marquee the only modern cars that really give me a true raw, connected steering feel are McLarens. Porsche GT cars were up there but McLaren LT cars are next level.

[Germanauto]

Originally Posted by Flacht3

I realize these cars are a different caliber but having put considerable time behind almost every marquee the only modern cars that really give me a true raw, connected steering feel are McLarens. Porsche GT cars were up there but McLaren LT cars are next level.

R&T and EE did a good analysis on this topic. McLaren seems very adamant on traditional steering feel. Wish I could experience one of their cars for myself.

https://www.roadandtrack.com/car-cul...hich-is-better

[wtwo3]

There seems to be no perfect car.

- Mclarens have the best steering feel but they don't fit a family (and interior build quality is questionable).. and... price...
- Porsche doesn't make a smaller and more affordable 4 door, and the 911 backseats are a bit too small for a family. Plus I don't think I can bring myself to daily an SUV even if it handles as well as a Macan
- BMW could have made the greatest m3 but they're purposely handicapping themselves with lack of steering feel (and controversial looks to say the least)
- Alfa would be a great option but interior is a bit iffy
- Same goes for Cadillac and their interiors
- Mercedes is dropping a 4 banger into their C63

[///d]

I want to know why we haven't figured out how to adjust the steering feel to at least feel heavier? It's electric assisted, and with the M Sport when you change chassis modes it makes the steering heavier so it's clearly programmed somewhere with some sort of ratio or variable, so why can't we find it?

[SenorFunkyPants]

You don't think its a lot to expect good steering feel from....
A heavy car
with the engine over the front wheels
ultra wide low profile tyres with high grip
front wheels containing 4WD parts whether driven or not.
Electric highly assisted steering rack.

Other similar configured cars may be able to better simulate steering feel but surely thats all it is...the physics exclude the proper steering feel you got from say an eighties 911- with none of the problems noted above.

[kyriian]

Originally Posted by wtwo3

There seems to be no perfect car.

- Mclarens have the best steering feel but they don't fit a family (and interior build quality is questionable).. and... price...
- Porsche doesn't make a smaller and more affordable 4 door, and the 911 backseats are a bit too small for a family. Plus I don't think I can bring myself to daily an SUV even if it handles as well as a Macan
- BMW could have made the greatest m3 but they're purposely handicapping themselves with lack of steering feel (and controversial looks to say the least)
- Alfa would be a great option but interior is a bit iffy
- Same goes for Cadillac and their interiors
- Mercedes is dropping a 4 banger into their C63

Why not look at the IS500? It'd offer all the luxury you'd demand, 472 horses NA high revving V8 to thrill, and the reliability and quality that comes with all Lexus products. All the reviews seems to suggest it also drives oldschool, something that can be said to be 'good steering feel',

Added benefit, its cheaper than the bucktooth M3, or the 4 banger C63

[stein_325i]

Originally Posted by wtwo3

There seems to be no perfect car.

- Mclarens have the best steering feel but they don't fit a family (and interior build quality is questionable).. and... price...
- Porsche doesn't make a smaller and more affordable 4 door, and the 911 backseats are a bit too small for a family. Plus I don't think I can bring myself to daily an SUV even if it handles as well as a Macan
- BMW could have made the greatest m3 but they're purposely handicapping themselves with lack of steering feel (and controversial looks to say the least)
- Alfa would be a great option but interior is a bit iffy
- Same goes for Cadillac and their interiors
- Mercedes is dropping a 4 banger into their C63

I think the whole Cadillac interior comments are overblown. They are perfectly fine, and not like they're a deathtrap or anything. Now they got rid of CUE (which is an added benefit) and they also have excellent sport seats, and while all the materials may not be as soft or smooth as the Germans, they are fine and will fade into the background as you feel that excellent chassis doing its work on a backroad. If you were able to find a CT4-V Blackwing (Manual of course ) that could be a great car and should fit two boosters in the back.

[wtwo3]

Originally Posted by kyriian

Why not look at the IS500? It'd offer all the luxury you'd demand, 472 horses NA high revving V8 to thrill, and the reliability and quality that comes with all Lexus products. All the reviews seems to suggest it also drives oldschool, something that can be said to be 'good steering feel',

Added benefit, its cheaper than the bucktooth M3, or the 4 banger C63

I have considered the IS500.... but.... i'm very conflicted on it. It's got other issues. Sure it's got a gem of a motor and sounds great and I'm sure the steering feel will be better than what BMW offers. But that's where it ends. Interior dates back to 2014, transmission is lazy, and I'm sure Lexus dealers are going to treat this like some "cs" type model and mark up the pricing to ridiculous amounts.

I wouldn't consider it being cheaper than the M3/C63 as a benefit since it's not in the same class. The IS500 competes with the m340i and C43, and as such the pricing (before any dealer markups) is in line with those models.

[wtwo3]

Originally Posted by stein_325i

I think the whole Cadillac interior comments are overblown. They are perfectly fine, and not like they're a deathtrap or anything. Now they got rid of CUE (which is an added benefit) and they also have excellent sport seats, and while all the materials may not be as soft or smooth as the Germans, they are fine and will fade into the background as you feel that excellent chassis doing its work on a backroad. If you were able to find a CT4-V Blackwing (Manual of course ) that could be a great car and should fit two boosters in the back.

Yeah I'll definitely take a look at the CT4 V BW. In regards to the interior... I have gotten used to soft/smooth German interiors over the past few years so you could say I've been spoiled (especially with our X5 which is loaded and has IMO one of the best SUV interiors this side of a Bentayga.... but that's besides the point).

The whole manual vs. auto is another issue. I'm really want to get a manual, but my wife doesn't know how to drive one and refuses to learn. As such that handicaps her if I ever need to take the SUV for any reason and she's stuck with the manual car. And being at home with 2 kids and no form of usable transportation is a bit of an issue. So I'm really conflicted on that part.

[Humdizzle]

Originally Posted by wtwo3

Yeah I'll definitely take a look at the CT4 V BW. In regards to the interior... I have gotten used to soft/smooth German interiors over the past few years so you could say I've been spoiled (especially with our X5 which is loaded and has IMO one of the best SUV interiors this side of a Bentayga.... but that's besides the point).

The whole manual vs. auto is another issue. I'm really want to get a manual, but my wife doesn't know how to drive one and refuses to learn. As such that handicaps her if I ever need to take the SUV for any reason and she's stuck with the manual car. And being at home with 2 kids and no form of usable transportation is a bit of an issue. So I'm really conflicted on that part.

buy yourself two cars ?

manual sedan and a cheap $5k beater of craigslist to park on the street?

[evomike]

the only thing my frs was better at was fuel economy and steering feel

[wtwo3]

Originally Posted by Humdizzle

buy yourself two cars ?

manual sedan and a cheap $5k beater of craigslist to park on the street?

My brother in law actually implemented this strategy. Bought himself a manual corvette, but also a camry in case he ever needed to take the SUV out and wife needed a car. When this happened my wife looked at me and said, "don't get any ideas"

May be worth revisiting that conversation though....

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by ///d

I want to know why we haven't figured out how to adjust the steering feel to at least feel heavier? It's electric assisted, and with the M Sport when you change chassis modes it makes the steering heavier so it's clearly programmed somewhere with some sort of ratio or variable, so why can't we find it?

But does heavier weighting give better feel and feedback. I'm not convinced. Many prefer the Comfort steering as it is more 'sensitive', doesn't feel so artificially damped. I'm in that camp. Even heavier... not sure what that adds to steering feel.

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by wtwo3

There seems to be no perfect car.

Every car is a set of compromises. Just go for the best package. That's why many users are in a BMW, it offers "for them" the best set of compromises.

Just imagine the McLaren steering in the bread and butter models. I'd wager there would be more complaints about the "over sensitive steering" from the typical BMW user, than those who would give it a

[wtwo3]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

Every car is a set of compromises. Just go for the best package. That's why many users are in a BMW, it offers "for them" the best set of compromises.

Just imagine the McLaren steering in the bread and butter models. I'd wager there would be more complaints about the "over sensitive steering" from the typical BMW user, than those who would give it a

That's true... just wish at least for the M models they'd have fixed the steering. But even those seem to be subject to the artificial feel.

Wonder how the new M2 fares. that might be an option as it might have usable enough rear seats.

[stein_325i]

Originally Posted by wtwo3

That's true... just wish at least for the M models they'd have fixed the steering. But even those seem to be subject to the artificial feel.

Wonder how the new M2 fares. that might be an option as it might have usable enough rear seats.

The new 2er is actually smaller on the insider than the old one (and smaller trunk) despite being physically larger and heavier.

Its situations like these that make it really sad that the 2-Series Gran Corolla turned out to be FWD.

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by wtwo3

That's true... just wish at least for the M models they'd have fixed the steering. But even those seem to be subject to the artificial feel.

Wonder how the new M2 fares. that might be an option as it might have usable enough rear seats.

On one of our UK forums, a long term M-car driver, including E46 M3, E60 & F10 M5's, picked up a new G80 M3 Competition, just over a week ago. His comments, include the steering is very lively and direct. Also states; "By far the best M car chassis I have driven to date".

I'd suggest you get out there and try one, make your own assessment.

[wtwo3]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

On one of our UK forums, a long term M-car driver, including E46 M3, E60 & F10 M5's, picked up a new G80 M3 Competition, just over a week ago. His comments, include the steering is very lively and direct. Also states; "By far the best M car chassis I have driven to date".

I'd suggest you get out there and try one, make your own assessment.

I have tried the new G80 earlier this year on a test drive. Test drove this exact model.

In regards to the driving dynamics, the chassis, and directness of the steering I agree it was incredible. Made my G20 m340i feel sluggish.

I'm honestly leaning heavily towards ordering a G80 - just a couple issues I have with it are:
- I'm still not sold on the looks 100%. I do think it looks much better in person than in pictures, but it's still not a "pretty" car by any stretch. Yes, it's aggressive so it helps to approach its looks in that manner, but they could have done wonders if they had just made it look more like an amped up G20.
- Steering is definitely accurate and direct, but that feedback still isn't quite there.
- I wish they had done more for the sounds it makes. But this is a minor gripe.

[Alfisti]

Again, I will never ever understand the issue with Alfa interiors.

They integrate the screen, fit and finish is fine and if you tick the right options they look understated and really nice. I am not sure what else people want other than stupid big screen that look ridiculous.

Here's the wife's stelvio with the full leather option box ticked......