[135Pats]

Originally Posted by pwr hungry

I don't currently use e85, and I can more than afford my car. So, if I saw enough evidence to use pump e85 I would be more than happy to save some money dd'ing on that and then using race gas or e85R at the "track". I think it boils down to convenience for people more than anything.

This.

Anyone who thinks people are filling with E85 solely to "save money" needs to have their head checked.

I have never come across (firsthand or anecdotally) a single instance of ethanol related fuel system failure on an N54. People have been fooling around with corn on this platform for what, half a decade now? I could see injector tip and seal issues creeping up, but I have yet to see anything in the ballpark of proving that our fuel system cannot handle ethanol mixtures.

100% meth is quite corrosive, so that's a different argument.

[Mit_Boost]

Originally Posted by Killerfish2012

This is a BMW forum, so we assume that you were sure you had the appropriate finances to own an expensive luxury vehicle. You could afford the maintenance, aftermarket parts, and labor required to modify your car. Why when it comes to octane, are you looking for a cheap route? Can't afford the $7:21 for 100 octane, and want to buy E85 for $3:50? Then how do you hope to replace your driver side door mirror for $800 when it breaks? Think that price is a little too high, and that such a component should actually cost $150 max in a regular car? Then you definitely bought more car than you can afford.

I'll just respond to to this quote, which further illustrates you're lack of knowledge about tuning & E85 use on this platform. You're absolute right that E85 from a pump might be cheap compared to 100 octane, but you fail to realize that A) the performance potential with that pump E85 still outweighs 100-120 octane gas and B) because it contains no lead and the properties of E85, there are specific benefits to ethanol based fuels (you don't worry about killing your cats, the car will run cooler & performance will be more consistent, etc).


This is my last response, because at looking from your post history, you've also battled Tony (VargasTurbos) about why there was NO need to upgrade the fueling system on Stage 2 turbos (which can be maxed out on stock turbos) AND then make a thread about bolting the S55 (new M3/M4) turbos onto the N54 as a cheap upgrade option.

Following those two specific posts, you've illustrated your lack of knowledge and understanding in the aftermarket tuning on the N54 engine. I hope that everyone who's seen your previous posts sees this (if they haven't already) and realize that you're posting lots of junk information on the forum.

[Killerfish2012]

Originally Posted by Mit_Boost

I'll just respond to to this quote, which further illustrates you're lack of knowledge about tuning & E85 use on this platform. [/URL].

Funny how you accused me of being anti-E85, when ealier on in the thread, I recommended E85R over pump E85. No comeback to that, nor my numberous fact based points against pump E85. Still think showering your piston and rings with an alcohol will have no effect on them long term? Just google effects of ethanol on pistons and rings in non-flex fuel vehicles, and do some reading.

[Killerfish2012]

Originally Posted by 135Pats

I have never come across (firsthand or anecdotally) a single instance of ethanol related fuel system failure on an N54. People have been fooling around with corn on this platform for what, half a decade now? I could see injector tip and seal issues creeping up, but I have yet to see anything in the ballpark of proving that our fuel system cannot handle ethanol mixtures.

The problem with all the pro Pump E85 in non-flex fuel vehicles arguments is that a lot of experts would have to be wrong for you to be right, including:

1. All Auto manufacturers (Including BMW)
2. All car dealerships (Including BMW)
3. All oil companies and their affiliates (from the refinaries down to the pump operators)
4. All race gas manufacturers, who make E85R, and price it the same as gasoline based race gas.

Non of these miriad of experts with degrees and/or years of experience would recommend what you are advocating. In fact they would all reject the idea, once you mention it to them. That's a lot of people who are dead wrong, in order for you to be right.

[Myrder]

Originally Posted by Mit_Boost

I'll just respond to to this quote, which further illustrates you're lack of knowledge about tuning & E85 use on this platform. You're absolute right that E85 from a pump might be cheap compared to 100 octane, but you fail to realize that A) the performance potential with that pump E85 still outweighs 100-120 octane gas and B) because it contains no lead and the properties of E85, there are specific benefits to ethanol based fuels (you don't worry about killing your cats, the car will run cooler & performance will be more consistent, etc).


This is my last response, because at looking from your post history, you've also battled Tony (VargasTurbos) about why there was NO need to upgrade the fueling system on Stage 2 turbos (which can be maxed out on stock turbos) AND then make a thread about bolting the S55 (new M3/M4) turbos onto the N54 as a cheap upgrade option.

Following those two specific posts, you've illustrated your lack of knowledge and understanding in the aftermarket tuning on the N54 engine. I hope that everyone who's seen your previous posts sees this (if they haven't already) and realize that you're posting lots of junk information on the forum.

+1, I'll do the cost analysis for fun (not that cost is the issue)

Lets see, I can run $3.50 a gal, at 10gal a week, for a year, which costs $1820 and hit 17-18psi any time i want.

OR I can pay $8 a gal, at 10gal a week, for a year, which costs $4160, and hit the same 17-18psi all day.

With e85 blends I can bank the $2340 a year for the entire fuel system in case it fails. Sounds good to me

[Killerfish2012]

Originally Posted by Mit_Boost

This is my last response, because at looking from your post history, you've also battled Tony (VargasTurbos) about why there was NO need to upgrade the fueling system on Stage 2 turbos (which can be maxed out on stock turbos) AND then make a thread about bolting the S55 (new M3/M4) turbos onto the N54 as a cheap upgrade option.

oh, and btw...hi Tony! cool new username

[Killerfish2012]

Originally Posted by Myrder

With e85 blends I can bank the $2340 a year for the entire fuel system in case it fails. Sounds good to me

and the motor?

[135Pats]

Originally Posted by Killerfish2012

The problem with all the pro Pump E85 in non-flex fuel vehicles arguments is that a lot of experts would have to be wrong for you to be right, including:

1. All Auto manufacturers (Including BMW)
2. All car dealerships (Including BMW)
3. All oil companies and their affiliates (from the refinaries down to the pump operators)
4. All race gas manufacturers, who make E85R, and price it the same as gasoline based race gas.

Non of these miriad of experts with degrees and/or years of experience would recommend what you are advocating. In fact they would all reject the idea, once you mention it to them. That's a lot of people who are dead wrong, in order for you to be right.

Fair enough. I don't pretend to be an expert on ethanol. But as a bottom line matter, I don't think anyone on this forum has ever pinned down a serious hardware failure to E85 mixtures. And we've had hundreds (probably thousands) of people messing around with E85 for years and hundreds of thousands of miles, across the globe. They tire out the fuel pumps more quickly but we're all in agreement on that.

Piston issues, cylinders eroding, that nasty stuff...it's simply not being documented-certainly not in the sense that shows a causual relationship.

So is it possible that running E50 will cause a cylinder to erode? Sure, I suppose. And i'm not going to sit here and say "I know more than BMW". But after hearing all the smoke...where's the fire? Folks here are generally pretty open about the N54s shortcomings and the various issues that crop up.

At the same time- leaded gas is nasty, nasty stuff.

Originally Posted by pwr hungry

Can you please go fall off a cliff already!?!

lulzzzz post of the day

[135Pats]

Would be interested to see what @BMWMD thinks. I'm sure he's seen more N54 blocks than you or I. I'd value his opinion on this.

[Killerfish2012]

Originally Posted by 135Pats

Fair enough. I don't pretend to be an expert on ethanol. But as a bottom line matter, I don't think anyone on this forum has ever pinned down a serious hardware failure to E85 mixtures. And we've had hundreds (probably thousands) of people messing around with E85 for years and hundreds of thousands of miles, across the globe. They tire out the fuel pumps more quickly but we're all in agreement on that.

Piston issues, cylinders eroding, that nasty stuff...it's simply not being documented-certainly not in the sense that shows a causual relationship.

So is it possible that running E50 will cause a cylinder to erode? Sure, I suppose. And i'm not going to sit here and say "I know more than BMW". But after hearing all the smoke...where's the fire? Folks here are generally pretty open about the N54s shortcomings and the various issues that crop up.

We have seen quite a few engine failures on here. Mostly from people who use methanol, but there is a popular guy on here who uses both ethanol, and methanol at the same time. When his first motor failed he came on here blaming his injectors, but there was no mechanical reason found for his failure. One of his pistons simply failed on him, and he lost compression. In his thread, I suggested that it could be due to his long term use of E85, and methanol, and he blew me off. You seem to not be trolling at all, and instead, looking for factual information like me. Just do a search on the engine failures we've seen so far, and the common link is heavy alcohol use of one variety or another.

Originally Posted by 135Pats

lulzzzz post of the day

It's just troll bait. Remember that this thread started out with the OP simply inquring about how to mix up unleaded 100 from VP fuels (MS109). How did it endup an E85 troll fest?

[Myrder]

Originally Posted by Killerfish2012

and the motor?

I mean lets be serious. The entire car might catch on fire from e85.

[135Pats]

I'm not trolling anyone, just curious and want to get to the bottom of things.

With regards to the serious motor failures we've seen, the majority of them have been methanol induced hydrolock, or some other unfortunate hydrolock event. Some very rare, almost one-off oil starvation situations for the track rats; but those are close to statistically insignificant.

I just look at it like this. The N54 community likes power, we have X number of people here who are always pushing for more and more. E85 is used by what...man it's gotta be like 40% of the people who are frequent posters here.

That is a lot of time, a lot of miles, a lot of HARD driving. And it sounds like there is maybe a single example that has been documented, that could potentially have been ethanol related. Now it's important to remember that not everything ends up on the forum, so perhaps people are blowing things up left and right and simply not reporting on it. But I don't really get that sense, certainly not amongst the enthusiast portion of this board.


There's my piece, i'll step off the soap box. I wouldn't argue against you for a second that 100% methanol could cause long-term corrosion problems, but that can be pretty caustic stuff.

[Stucks]

Originally Posted by Killerfish2012

It's ethanol content is always 85%, unlike pump E85, which even in the summer, maxes out at 83% ethanol.
.

wrong. I myself, 2 local race shops, as well as my friends from the ford coyote/boss302 camp have tested a local station selling e85, with the ethanol percentage being over 90%. So it doesn't "max out" at 83% ethanol like you said. It varies from station to station. Unless you actually go test the fuel yourself, you shouldn't assume what ethanol percentage it has.

[Stucks]

Originally Posted by Myrder

I mean lets be serious. The entire car might catch on fire from e85.

Lol!

Originally Posted by 135Pats

I'm not trolling anyone, just curious and want to get to the bottom of things.

With regards to the serious motor failures we've seen, the majority of them have been methanol induced hydrolock, or some other unfortunate hydrolock event. Some very rare, almost one-off oil starvation situations for the track rats; but those are close to statistically insignificant.

I just look at it like this. The N54 community likes power, we have X number of people here who are always pushing for more and more. E85 is used by what...man it's gotta be like 40% of the people who are frequent posters here.

That is a lot of time, a lot of miles, a lot of HARD driving. And it sounds like there is maybe a single example that has been documented, that could potentially have been ethanol related. Now it's important to remember that not everything ends up on the forum, so perhaps people are blowing things up left and right and simply not reporting on it. But I don't really get that sense, certainly not amongst the enthusiast portion of this board.

+1

[Killerfish2012]

Originally Posted by Stucks

wrong. I myself, 2 local race shops, as well as my friends from the ford coyote/boss302 camp have tested a local station selling e85, with the ethanol percentage being over 90%. So it doesn't "max out" at 83% ethanol like you said. It varies from station to station. Unless you actually go test the fuel yourself, you shouldn't assume what ethanol percentage it has.

This is according to shell petroleum. I can give you the link to this info. It's on their website.

[Stucks]

Originally Posted by Killerfish2012

This is according to shell petroleum. I can give you the link to this info. It's on their website.

So you are basically taking what a major oil company says and just regurgitating it? Great, cause they never everrr lie. -__-

What im saying, is it varies from station to station, so the only way is to test it yourself. maybe someplaces get e85 that has only 60.33345% ethanol? Maybe some get 95.999934% ethanol? No way to tell unless you test it yourself. There is no absolute minimum or max.

[Killerfish2012]

Originally Posted by 135Pats

That is a lot of time, a lot of miles, a lot of HARD driving. And it sounds like there is maybe a single example that has been documented, that could potentially have been ethanol related. Now it's important to remember that not everything ends up on the forum, so perhaps people are blowing things up left and right and simply not reporting on it. But I don't really get that sense, certainly not amongst the enthusiast portion of this board.

been around car forums for over a decade. This is typical behavior from guys pushing the envelope. They'll never ever report what went wrong with their setup once stuff happens. Just, you'd see some guy suddenly stop posting. There was also one E85 tunning incident on this forum, with aftermarket turbos that blew up on a dyno. The guy never actually came out and, stated what happened, but vindicated his tunner (a very popular, but older flash tunner on here).

[Killerfish2012]

Originally Posted by Stucks

So you are basically taking what a major oil company says and just regurgitating it? Great, cause they never everrr lie. -__-

What im saying, is it varies from station to station, so the only way is to test it yourself. maybe someplaces get e85 that has only 60.33345% ethanol? Maybe some get 95.999934% ethanol? No way to tell unless you test it yourself. There is no absolute minimum or max.

Shell petroleum sells 83% ethanol during the summer, max. You're also saying that you found a big variance from station to station. Can you remind me what your original point is? Please hit us up when you actually find 85% E85, at the pump.

[Stucks]

Originally Posted by Killerfish2012

Shell petroleum sells 83% ethanol during the summer, max. You're also saying that you found a big variance from station to station. Can you remind me what your original point is? Please hit us up when you actually find 85% E85, at the pump.

My original point is, by regurgitating a claim that there is only a max of 83% in the summer, you are wrong. I have found over 90% ethanol content "e85" fuel in the winter. Also, like I said, unless you actually go out and test the fuels yourself, instead of just believing what a corporation says, you can't argue that.

[Killerfish2012]

Originally Posted by Stucks

My original point is, by regurgitating a claim that there is only a max of 83% in the summer, you are wrong. I have found over 90% ethanol content "e85" fuel in the winter. Also, like I said, unless you actually go out and test the fuels yourself, instead of just believing what a corporation says, you can't argue that.

The original topic is about race gas. As in gasoline. Just look at how this started out, and has slowly become derailed into a pump E85 troll fest.

[Stucks]

Originally Posted by Killerfish2012

The original topic is about race gas. As in gasoline. Just look at how this started out, and has slowly become derailed into a pump E85 troll fest.

Yes it has strolled off topic, but that doesn't change what you said, which was wrong. lol. Simply just correcting your statement about maximum ethanol content.

[Mit_Boost]

Originally Posted by Killerfish2012

and the motor?

Let's think of all the stock motor cars out there running E85 (in blends & straight) that are commonly being tuned for E85 because of the fuel's benefits: Toyota Supras, Terminator Mustang Cobras, Eagle Talon/Eclipse, Dodge Vipers, Chevy Camaros & Corvettes, Mazda MS3s/RX7s, Honda S2Ks, Mitsu EVOs, Subarus, BMW N54, Porsche 996/997 Turbos, Turbo Lambo Gallardos, Turbo E46 M3s.... Get the picture?

1. Would like to guess how many of these cars, with stock motors, were built by their manufacturers as FlexFuel vehicles? 0
2. Would you like to guess how many of these cars are having stock motor failures on E85 tunes, specifically because of E85 use (on a solid, safe tune)? 0

Several of these cars were built before ethanol was legally mandated in public fuel sales. But with a proper tune & supporting fuel system, none of these cars have had any issues with their stock motors failing due to ethanol fuel use. IF there is an argument to be made about E85 (pump or race), it's if you are expecting to let the car sit for a prolonged time (winter storage), then it's best to drain the tank of high concentration ethanol fuel to avoid water absorption while the car sits.

Undercover Tuning in NJ in primarily known for tuning on the ProEFI EMS, which is very well known for being the ideal E85 use EMS. It uses various algorithms to adjust the intensity of the tune for any ethanol concentration from 93/Pump to straight E98. They have found that there is no significant difference between pump E85 and "Race" E85 besides guaranteed consistency (which is the brilliance of the ProEFI EMS). Adding insult to injury, I've used/tested the E85 from the Vine Street Shell in Philadelphia, it has often seen as high as 90% from April to October, when it drops into the 80s for "Winter" months.


When someone builds a motor for high HP racing and plans on using ethanol (pump or race), they do NOT buy E85 specific parts except for their fuel pumps and fuel lines. The pistons are the same, the injectors are the same, the rods, gaskets, bearings, etc etc etc -- Because it does not matter.

Originally Posted by Killerfish2012

There was also one E85 tuning incident on this forum, with aftermarket turbos that blew up on a dyno. The guy never actually came out and, stated what happened, but vindicated his tunner (a very popular, but older flash tunner on here).

Tuning incident are the key words here. A bad tune can destroy a perfectly healthy, built to spec motor. Chances are if the turbos failed (not the motor, which you could blame E85 as a potential reason for failure), too much boost was being run, too much backpressure, over spun wheels, or just a faulty set of turbos.