[MDyDinanM]

Originally Posted by apme123

It comes down to greed, that's all. Techs don't get paid enough for warranty repairs.

well the whole point in running a business is to make profit, etc. It's the way the go about doing it. The most successful businesses ensure they take care of their customer, which obviously didn't happen here. Not all dealers are bad. I've had dealers and their service centers go out of their way for me.

I know some really good BMW techs at Dealer, good guys too. Yes, they want to earn a decent income, but for the most part they enjoy what they do, that is working on cars.

[OregonMTB]

Did they tell you what was actually repaired??? I stumbled across this thread a few weeks ago. I do not own an E90--but I have had a handful of E38s, E46s, E34s, and E36s. Toss in 2 Z3's and 3 X5's I am a certifiable BMW guy.

Completely coincidentally I was picking up one of my cars at the local Indy and the tech shared a story (without me mentioning this post), about a certain E90 at the dealer he formally worked at. It was at the dealer for 9 months while BMWNA tried to figure out why the car would suddenly jerk to the right at highway speeds. After $30,000 worth of work on the car with no luck in fixing the problem (the only work done was what was directed by BMWNA), the steering angle sensor was finally replaced and the problem was fixed.

To me that sounds like someone knows about a problem that is a whole lot worse than Firestone tires on Ford Explorers.

I think I will stick with my 12 cylinders and 19 mpg!

[MDyDinanM]

Originally Posted by OregonMTB

Did they tell you what was actually repaired??? I stumbled across this thread a few weeks ago. I do not own an E90--but I have had a handful of E38s, E46s, E34s, and E36s. Toss in 2 Z3's and 3 X5's I am a certifiable BMW guy.

Completely coincidentally I was picking up one of my cars at the local Indy and the tech shared a story (without me mentioning this post), about a certain E90 at the dealer he formally worked at. It was at the dealer for 9 months while BMWNA tried to figure out why the car would suddenly jerk to the right at highway speeds. After $30,000 worth of work on the car with no luck in fixing the problem (the only work done was what was directed by BMWNA), the steering angle sensor was finally replaced and the problem was fixed.

To me that sounds like someone knows about a problem that is a whole lot worse than Firestone tires on Ford Explorers.

I think I will stick with my 12 cylinders and 19 mpg!

did you read post #494 on page 23?

Steering angle sensor (SZL)

[OregonMTB]

Originally Posted by mdyaman

did you read post #494 on page 23?

Steering angle sensor (SZL)

I did--I am just saying I know of a car that the exact same problem that kept recurring and did not go away until the steering angle sensor was replaced. Logic tells me it was the steering angle sensor. This is completely regardless of what any fault codes may be reading. The steering angle sensor could be bad and yet not trip any codes. Computers are only as good as the programmer and the user.

[JTILAK07]

I don't know if your problem was resolved or not. and i did not read all 25 pages of this thread but if I were you and the GM of the company alongside the lawyer is taking sides against you, I would contact the BBB and BMW Consumer affairs. Had to do that quite a few times for diff dealers(hyundai, kia, nissan & vw) for they were not working with me on the situation. after bbb and consumer affairs was contacted all work on vehicles were done for free with out a single word from anyone at dealer.

[apme123]

So this thread is still alive>?? when is it gonna die?

[dmatre]

Interesting...
While neither of these guys suffered loss of control, there are similarities.

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=633521
http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=597602

[Jgcdude1]

Holy cow! Took an entire day of reading, but finally caught up! Arguru best of luck dude I can't imagine how stressful this all has been. I can understand how you have been turned off by BMW in general. Don't give up just yet, keep it going. Good luck and we're all behind you.

This drink is for you,

Cheers!

[Nalod]

Like watching a hyped up movie only to realize it gone amuck!

The ending sucked.

Looks like the OP went to far and realized there was no where to go.

No money, No lemonization, no buyback of conspiracy tainted danger car and no penske love.

Sounds like a lawyer got to smack him down and get real.

Car got fixed and I suppose all is happy.

In the end, no fireball ending and no class action heroics.

Maybe its for the best.

[GMonkey]

damn, that is a crappy service experience. Glad you safe. and the car is safer.

(I have never worked for either company, nor live in AZ)

As for the system is only as good as the information that it gets from the sensors. IF by chance that data received data that was within specified parameters, the system would continue to operate until it detected that the response was invalid. which could cause the car to act in a way other than intended.

How do i know this you might ask. I work on a domestic premium car brand and have had a few customers come in complaining of the tracontrol contol system flashing at them while driving in a straight line on dry pavement. no code stored intermittent issue. The customer could not duplicate the concern on any test drive. But after several test drives alone trying to trace any cause, and no sensor faults, I duplicated it and found the steering angle sensor telling the traction module the wrong information for an extremely small time window (to fast for the scan tool to read).

back to the thread topic.

Is it possible that a incorrect, but valid piece(s) of data was transmitted to the traction/steering system: yes
Was the fault in the steering systems or sub systems: possible
could the fault be in another system the gives data to the traction/stering system: possible
Could the resulting fault cause the steering to effect the steering system: i don't know (don't have working understanding of the system) but my guess is possible

the likely hood of duplicating the concern with out atleast some driving conditions and paramters from which to start with: difficult at best ecpecally it it was not easy for you to duplicate.

(as to why im so vague to where i work my company does not like their name being published with out the ownes concent. but we sold the most of our car brand than any other dealer of our brand in the US.)

now that i have said my bit i hope i may help, but if not you can just dismiss it a idiotic rambling (no offence will be taken).

[arguru]

Originally Posted by Bargamon

Like watching a hyped up movie only to realize it gone amuck!

The ending sucked.

Looks like the OP went to far and realized there was no where to go.

No money, No lemonization, no buyback of conspiracy tainted danger car and no love.

Sounds like a lawyer got to smack him down and get real.

Car got fixed and I suppose all is happy.

In the end, no fireball ending and no class action heroics.

Maybe its for the best.

You want action? Go watch Transformers. I don't think you're gonna get what you're looking for from this.

[SantaMonica335i]

I still have a hard time believing that a mechanically linked steering system gets disabled due to an electronic or other system problem. I can see power steering going out but that would only make steering harder. Are our cars fly by wire and i'm not aware?

[MDyDinanM]

Originally Posted by Bargamon

Like watching a hyped up movie only to realize it gone amuck!

The ending sucked.

Looks like the OP went to far and realized there was no where to go.

No money, No lemonization, no buyback of conspiracy tainted danger car and no penske love.

Sounds like a lawyer got to smack him down and get real.

Car got fixed and I suppose all is happy.

In the end, no fireball ending and no class action heroics.

Maybe its for the best.

Did you even read the thread? I'm sorry, but your comments are ignorant of the facts.

It was never about money in the first place, or a lawsuit. Secondly, no lawyer "smacked" him down.

Third, there was a lot going on behind the scenes of the nasty business Penske and the dealership was trying to do to the OP, that out of maturity, the OP didn't post on here. Only few are privy to that info.

I think you deserve one of these:

---------

Arguru don't let the peanut gallery get to you, we know the truth!

[DnA Diesel]

Originally Posted by SantaMonica335i

I still have a hard time believing that a mechanically linked steering system gets disabled due to an electronic or other system problem. I can see power steering going out but that would only make steering harder. Are our cars fly by wire and i'm not aware?

If you have ActiveSteering, there is a question about a possible failure mode of the electric motor and/or its controller within the steering assembly and potential lack of steering control.

In a nutshell, there is a planetary gear assembly in the steering column. There is an electric motor connected to the outer ring gear of the planetary gear set via a worm gear. When the steering control logic determines that standard rate steering is best for the driving conditions, the electric motor spins to keep the planetary outer ring gear aligned with the upper steering column (and steering wheel) such that movement of the steering wheel provides a linear movement of the steering rack, thus front wheels. At low speed where a higher ratio is required, i.e. manoeuvring like parking, etc..., the electric motor spins the ring gear faster than the steering column, resulting in the steering rack rotating the front wheels through a greater angle relative to the steering wheel's movement. Conversely, at high speeds where a lower steering ratio is desired in order to enhance stability, the electric motor under drives (in some cases, BMW videos even show reverse drive of the planetary ring gear) the outer ring gear relative to the steering column input, resulting in less movement of the front wheels relative to steering wheel input.

More benign failure modes of the active steering would likely be failure of the electric motor itself, such that steering output would revert close to or back to a linear, unmodified steering ratio.

The thoughts by some, myself included, is that a more insidious failure of the
active steering control module could actually drive the electric motor in a partially, or completely uncontrolled manner, potentially modifying drastically not only the steering ratio, but the nominal centering point of the steering assembly itself. Such a failure would be characterised by erratic and seemingly (to the driver) uncontrolled steering action, including a steering wheel where the "straight forward" position may actually occur with the steering wheel offset significantly from the perfect straight up position.

Of particular interest is the effect of the failure of the steering angle sensor, or the "SZL" module. This module was confirmed to have failed on arguru's vehicle. As others have noted, the car can only diagnose itself and store a code for operational or failure modes that were anticipated and planned for by BMW's engineers. Other failure modes that may, or might not even throw a code, still have the potential to cause apparently uncontrolled behaviour.

Folks who write such discussion above off as "musings" that were 'unreasonable' or uneducated' would be wrong. While BMW is no doubt a big company with undoubtedly thousands of competent and highly trained engineers, all trying to contribute to a well made product, that does not mean that they get things perfect. Nobody gets things perfect. There will always be some system with a potential unanticipated failure mode that the engineers, as diligent as they were, did not, or perhaps could not have foreseen.

Personal case in point, in my day job I pilot aircraft, and years ago, I was flying an aircraft model made by the largest aerospace manufacturer on the planet, i.e. lots of good, conscientious, well-trained engineers. At one point during the flight, rather close to the ground, I had an un-commanded flight control output that pretty much pitched the nose down towards the ground. Pulling the control stick back as one would do in normal operation did not result in the desired reaction by the aircraft. Long story short, but disabling some other systems then using controls in an unconventional manner, the aircraft captain and I (co-pilot at the time) regained control of the aircraft and recovered without further incident. Aside from about 30 folks needing to do some laundry that day, we provided a report to the manufacturer about what had happened, and after their assessment of what happened, the particular aircraft's flight manual was modified to include detailed procedure on recovering control from condition X.

The point is, the manufacturer had designed a system that they quite reasonably thought to have been designed in a fail-proof mode. My aircraft captain and I (and some other crews elsewhere, it turned out) had found a particular condition where the flight control behaviour did not occur as intended. The manufacturer's engineers analyzed the failure mode, and embodied modifications and amended the flight manual to include appropriate actions to minimize the probability of, and to correctly react to the situation.

I see no reason why a fundamentally similar situation could not happen in this case. Engineers design an improved system, believing the potential disadvantages of a more complex system are outweighed by the advantages of increased control. There is a potential failure mode that is not identified, not through incompetency, but just the nature of design in an increasingly complex world. Test plans are established to ensure safety and performance, but they can't catch 100% of the problems, 100% of the time.

What is at issue here was the manner in which the original poster was dealt with by the vendor dealer, and then, it would appear by BMW themselves.

I feel for arguru, because I know that if the aerospace company that made my aircraft had tried to blow our crew (and operating organization) off with an "it didn't happen as you say...it couldn't, we know, we built the aircraft" I'd be pretty pissed off. The company didn't though, it dealt with the issue immediately and without blame to us or any other crew that believed we had experienced something unintended by the OEM.

My appreciation is that is all that arguru is looking for: acknowledgement of his occurrence and a willingness by, at this point, BMW (I would write off any dealings with the dealer in question - it just seems like an organization that has very little sense in the appreciation of customers, any and all customers) to assess his car's behaviour to indeed see if there is a greater issue, a safety issue, with the Active Steering potentially failing in a manner that BMW had not previously identified.

Mein zwei pfenning,
D.

[MDyDinanM]

/\



well said. Probably one of the best comments on this thread.

[Nalod]

Originally Posted by mdyaman

Did you even read the thread? I'm sorry, but your comments are ignorant of the facts.

It was never about money in the first place, or a lawsuit. Secondly, no lawyer "smacked" him down.

Third, there was a lot going on behind the scenes of the nasty business Penske and the dealership was trying to do to the OP, that out of maturity, the OP didn't post on here. Only few are privy to that info.

I think you deserve one of these:

---------

Arguru don't let the peanut gallery get to you, we know the truth!

I read the whole thread.

The emtioncom thing hurt my eye less than reading the OP's emotional Tampon of attention.

The whole thing he used the leverage of sympathy by employing the social media without the other side able to defend itself.

Im glad the dude got his car fixed.

[apme123]

this threads back, back again, shandy's back tell a friend

lol

[DoD74]

I had a similar situation a few years back with a tire recall on a 2005 E60, and when the dealership failed to address the issue I called BMW North American offices and they immediately resolved the issue for me. My advice to anyone with dealership issues is to report your dealership to BMW's home office. I have thankfully had very few issues in my 15 year relationship with BMW, but on the occasions that I have, once I escalate to BMW NA within a day or two a local dealership will call me begging for an opportunity to resolve whatever my issue is. I am sorry that you were treated that way, and happy to read that it was resolved. Regardless of the brand, treating a customer like that is inexcusable, especially when safety is an issue.

[Uber V8]

Originally Posted by archangel4865

I had a similar situation a few years back with a tire recall on a2005 E60, and when the dealership failed me I called BMW North American offices and they immediately resolved the issue for me. My advice to anyone with dealership issues is to report your dealership to BMW's home office. I have thankfully had very few issues in my 15 year relationship with BMW, but on the occasions that I have, once I escalate to BMW NA within a day or two a local dealership will call me begging for an opportunity to resolve whatever my issue is. I am sorry that you were treated that way, and happy to read that it was resolved. Regardless of the brand, treating a customer like that is inexcusable, especially when safety is an issue.

In other words, what you're really saying is TL;DR

[MMXI]

i had an issue with a noise coming from my car when coming to a stop when the car only had 200 miles on it. after 3 weeks being at the dealer and dealer kept giving me the car back UNFIXED i called north america and demanded to do a lease return. they tried telling me that their lawyer is gonna call me but in the end i got my 3200 dollar down payment back because after 5 weeks of research and a specialty tech from north america inspected my car...they found a water pump problem

dont waste your time call BME of NORTH AMERICA AND OPEN A CLAIM...then call them every 2 days and annoy the F@@@ otta them until they do something about it...

[driverman]

Originally Posted by DnA Diesel

If you have ActiveSteering, there is a question about a possible failure mode of the electric motor and/or its controller within the steering assembly and potential lack of steering control.

...

Folks who write such discussion above off as "musings" that were 'unreasonable' or uneducated' would be wrong. While BMW is no doubt a big company with undoubtedly thousands of competent and highly trained engineers, all trying to contribute to a well made product, that does not mean that they get things perfect. Nobody gets things perfect. There will always be some system with a potential unanticipated failure mode that the engineers, as diligent as they were, did not, or perhaps could not have foreseen.

...

I see no reason why a fundamentally similar situation could not happen in this case. Engineers design an improved system, believing the potential disadvantages of a more complex system are outweighed by the advantages of increased control. There is a potential failure mode that is not identified, not through incompetency, but just the nature of design in an increasingly complex world. Test plans are established to ensure safety and performance, but they can't catch 100% of the problems, 100% of the time.

D.

Great post! Thanks.

I've been an engineer for 40 years and concluded that the harder you try to handle every possible scenario, the more you increase complexity, which in turns makes it more difficult to fully understand and test, which in turn makes it less reliable. You can partially overcome these obstacles and make things more reliable, but it's an uphill climb. The closer you get to 100% reliability, the faster development, production and maintenance costs climb.

Is there such a thing as a perfect Active Steering system in an automobile with a 0% chance of failure? I don't know, but I doubt it.

[DoD74]

Originally Posted by FwdFtl

In other words, what you're really saying is TL;DR

Nope, pretty sure I said what I meant. In my personal experience, calling BMW NA resolved the issues I've had over the years. For me it was an option that worked, so this incident is not necessarily typical of their treatment of customers in general. Aguru shared a bad experience, I shared my experience which had a positive outcome (it's called balance). I am glad another party diagnosed the issue as an SZL and corrected that issue, so the car should at least no longer be a danger to the driver, hence the issue with the actual car appears to be resolved. However, it is not acceptable for a dealership to treat anyone the way aguru reports being treated, which is why I said " I am sorry you were treated that way". And my closing statement is true, a dealership should take every customer complaint seriously, especially safety concerns, and as a customer it's our right to escalate if we see fit. Everyone has a boss, so keep climbing the ladder until you reach a party who will listen to your grievance. Hopefully aguru keeps the faith and the people involved eventually do the right thing. If nothing else, hopefully aguru at least sees from these posts that more people are their corner than not...