[mistermojorizin]

Originally Posted by Speed_Addict

Saw the following in another thread here: http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=160834



Sounds like there could be a strong tie here - would make sense. If you can't supply the fuel to meet the boosted intake requirements don't close the waste gates.... So, the affect may be felt as being a turbo/waste gate issue but really is drivent up stream by a software change intended to save/lengthen the life of the fuel pump. All speculation here on my part - I will note I am no expert.

Just thought I would add this information to this thread as I had noted there was no mention of it for what, it may be worth...

if you look at silverbullets post just a few posts before yours, you'll see he had his fuel pump replaced yesterday but the lag did not improve.

what i have seen is posts where peopl go in for wastegate issues, get new turbos and the lag disappears.

but, there is a strong correlation with people going in for service, they get updated, and their exhaust sound changes and they develop lag. so its hard to ignore the likelihood that it's a software problem and not hardware.

[RBBMWE46M3]

It will be intresting to se what my car is like after they flash it from 29.2 to 30.? I know people have said that it does not solve the lag issue but I wonder how it will sound? Ill let ya know!!

[Prof3ssor]

Originally Posted by RBBMWE46M3

It will be intresting to se what my car is like after they flash it from 29.2 to 30.? I know people have said that it does not solve the lag issue but I wonder how it will sound? Ill let ya know!!

I got flashed to 30 and my exhaust still pops and is very loud. Funny thing is I still have the 335i loaner, 10/07 build w/ v30 and it is very quiet. I tried everything I can do to make the exhaust pop by downshifting into 2nd and 1st and it was very quiet. However, the lag is still there on the loaner car. I told them I am keeping the loaner car and beating the piss out of it until they fix my car. I might as well put the miles on that one instead of mine. They are not happy but will do anything to avoid me being in that dealership. So, I have no idea what the issue is w/ the exhaust.

[meyergru]

Originally Posted by Prof3ssor

I got flashed to 30 and my exhaust still pops and is very loud. Funny thing is I still have the 335i loaner, 10/07 build w/ v30 and it is very quiet. I tried everything I can do to make the exhaust pop by downshifting into 2nd and 1st and it was very quiet. However, the lag is still there on the loaner car. I told them I am keeping the loaner car and beating the piss out of it until they fix my car. I might as well put the miles on that one instead of mine. They are not happy but will do anything to avoid me being in that dealership. So, I have no idea what the issue is w/ the exhaust.

I had v30 and the car was quiet (no pops) but laggy, like your loaner. My car is 09/07. Maybe the sound with v30 is different for hardware reasons with the new software. Older cars get louder, where newer ones get quieter?

Whatever, they both LAG.

[ezatnova]

Originally Posted by stressdoc

WOT in second gear does not break tires loose like it used to. It sounds different at idle, and at slow speeds in a parking garage. I am about to call my SA and ask what Progman they installed.

Doc, welcome to teh party. Better joining us late than never.

Yep, idle loudness, and at low speed in parking garage...the "BARRRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA" noise....thems be the symptoms.

[Prof3ssor]

I suggest everyone log a complaint with consumer affairs. They are actually pretty damn good. It can't hurt.

https://www.consumeraffairs.com/php/a_report.php

[Speed_Addict]

if you look at silverbullets post just a few posts before yours, you'll see he had his fuel pump replaced yesterday but the lag did not improve.

Not saying the fuel pump (working or beginning to fail) causes the lag issue, just that the software may have been adjusted to reduce the fuel pump failure rate (maybe by lowering the fuel presure requirements on the injector rail or something like that they have sought to reduce the stress on the pump and its seals/internal workings). I would think that if fuel delivery was retarded via the software in some way you would have to reduce boost some to keep air/fuel mixtures appropriate on the intake side. Also, I would think that making a change like that would also change the atomization of the fuel and thus its air/fuel mixture requirements and burn rate. As part of this change they may have changed the way in which the turbo/waste gates are operated as well as this of course would impact air/fuel mixture requirements on the intake side.

Also, since the cars are fly by wire, retarding/or restricting the fuel delivery rate via the software I imagine could possibly result in dead throttle response symptom. You can mash the gas pedal to the floor in a fly by wire system but, in the end the engine management system is going to determine how much fuel and air are going to be delivered to the engine taking into account the engines current running condition (i.e., it will do the best it can do given the parameters of the software, current engine load, and the input you provide with you right foot - but in the end it is the software that decides and not the foot when it comes to how much fuel and air are delivered to the engine). If the delivery of fuel where restricted via software to a lower level (as the other thread suggests) the system is only going to be able to operate as a whole at this resticted level. Again, I am no expert here - just putting on my systems thinking cap.

[mistermojorizin]

i hate this feeling of mashing the pedal to the floor, on my corvette and to a much lesser extent the g35, just touching the gas would be enough. and i know for a fact the g used throttle by wire. not making a point, just venting...

[RBBMWE46M3]

Originally Posted by meyergru

I had v30 and the car was quiet (no pops) but laggy, like your loaner. My car is 09/07. Maybe the sound with v30 is different for hardware reasons with the new software. Older cars get louder, where newer ones get quieter?

Whatever, they both LAG.

My car with v29.2 is very quiet and not a pop or burble out of my exhaust. Very quiet.

Just wondering...could all of this lag stuff really be a fuel pump or throttle response issue? How could we really know the differenc? If I tell my SM that I have turbo lag and they look for lag knowing the ding-bat's at my dealer they will try to tear appart the turbos. All along it could just be trottle response? Dam.... the problem still lies within v29.2 though.

[ezatnova]

Originally Posted by RBBMWE46M3

I have an idea....Ileen Cavanaugh left me her direct line to BMWNA. This is the lady who says that she has not recived one call for lag or fuel pump probelms...How bout all of us contact her and complain about our lag....
201-263-8234
Let her have it

Originally Posted by dmboone25

First of all, the guy I talked to, Dan, was very cordial and polite. He did not, however, have ANY idea what I was talking about. He told me that my call was the first, good or bad, that he has had on the 1 series at all. He also said the NO OTHER 3 or 5 series owners with the N54 engine had called in to complain about the turbo lag.

BMW NA # 800.831.1117 Dan's extention is 6250.

I guess we will see......

Guys, are we calling Ileen or Dan. Let's make a consensus and ALL CALL THE SAME PERSON. (or both, lol).

[mistermojorizin]

Originally Posted by RBBMWE46M3

My car with v29.2 is very quiet and not a pop or burble out of my exhaust. Very quiet.

Just wondering...could all of this lag stuff really be a fuel pump or throttle response issue? How could we really know the differenc? If I tell my SM that I have turbo lag and they look for lag knowing the ding-bat's at my dealer they will try to tear appart the turbos. All along it could just be trottle response? Dam.... the problem still lies within v29.2 though.

throttle response can be checked while your standing still, in neutral. everything else is turbo lag.

now the question is what causes the turbo lag? is it 29.2, is it fuel pump or wastegate or something else.

i have seen 2 things: 1) someone gets updated and they get lag - this can't be ignored 2) a couple of people have gotten new turbos as a result of wastegate issues and the lag went away. one person claimed that bmw has changed the construction of turbos twice.

[tyler9595]

Originally Posted by ezatnova

Could have been weight, but I don't think so. I still would have felt SOME surge, and there was none at all.

As for the kickdown, I may not have been clear. I got it to hold gears fine, in M mode, it just took me getting used to not hitting the downshift switch...so, I couldn't floor it like I do in my car.

Ok, that makes sense. My car would definately kickdown if I slammed it to the floor. But, I'm able to easily get WOT without doing that.

[RBBMWE46M3]

Just got the call from my dealer (about 5 pm)...the service department lady told me that they have a bulletin that says acceleration delay can be caused by a faulty HPFP. Well duh, they have it for lag and long starts. They are diagnosing this and she is waiting for BMW to give them the go ahead to change the HPFP. She told me Friday would be the target date for completion................the saga continues..........One more thing, she did not tell me wich version I had except that I have the newest dme and the latest software.....

[meyergru]

Originally Posted by mistermojorizin

throttle response can be checked while your standing still, in neutral. everything else is turbo lag.

now the question is what causes the turbo lag? is it 29.2, is it fuel pump or wastegate or something else.

i have seen 2 things: 1) someone gets updated and they get lag - this can't be ignored 2) a couple of people have gotten new turbos as a result of wastegate issues and the lag went away. one person claimed that bmw has changed the construction of turbos twice.

Did these people have new software at all or was the lag that they experienced just related to the other issues?

That is to ask: Is there anyone with v29.2 or v30 and not having (note: I said 'having', not 'feeling') lag? I know some people said they don't 'feel' any difference and/or felt it went away after a while. Sorry folks, I don't believe it.

If there was, there must indeed be something else other than software which triggers the condition, no matter if it is actually related to turbo, wastegate, HPFP or throttle-response.

If not, this is purely software-related.


I find this question interesting in one aspect:

If it is a pure software problem (as I hope), BMW will most likely fix it. The failure to acknowledge that there is a problem would then be related to lemon-law considerations (they know that the car must come to the shop at least two time more, if they fix it now by downgrading). This position would change when there is a fix.

If there is a triggering condition, there is two possibilities:

1. BMW has no clue about what triggers it, lacking error codes. This would also explain why there are somewhat unaware of a common problem.

2. They know what the culprit is, but it is expensive to fix like new turbos. Denying that there is a problem might save them a few bucks.

In both cases, we should not expect a software fix. Whenever I hear about a new Progman version that is somehow related to the 335i DME but does not fix the lag issue, I would be led to thinking something else than just the software is wrong.

Other than most of you, I am in the lucky position to have no actual problem (back to v27, yippie!). But if a triggering condition exists, I will make sure that the underlying problem is fixed before my 2 year warranty is up. I am not going to stay at v27 forever. After all, I want to drive that car for some time and almost any problem that comes up in the future can make an update neccessary.


So, is there anyone who can convince me he has v29.2 or v30 and has no lag?

[Speed_Addict]

Dam.... the problem still lies within v29.2 though

Sounds like it....

Since changing the software is the core cause of the performance change then it must be what it is doing with respect to the operation of fuel presures, air/fuel mixtures and waste gate operation.

2) a couple of people have gotten new turbos as a result of wastegate issues and the lag went away. one person claimed that bmw has changed the construction of turbos twice.

This would seem infer software is being placed on cars for which the software was not designed if the software update creates a problem which is then cured by updating a different to again be compatible with the software. I can't imagine a software update would be done against equipment it was not designed to operate.

I think the change in software to improve fuel pump life/reduce failures makes the most sense - the symptoms may likely just be the fallout of that change. I am sure with the NHTSA investigation of fuel pumps there may be presure to reduce failures - and maybe this is why the mandatory update - to eleviate some liability risk until a solution is found. Wastegate rattle has been noted as a problem but you don't see 2 to 3 threads on it per forum page every day (with some of those posts being new).

[mistermojorizin]

Originally Posted by meyergru

Did these people have new software at all or was the lag that they experienced just related to the other issues?

That is to ask: Is there anyone with v29.2 or v30 and not having (note: I said 'having', not 'feeling') lag? I know some people said they don't 'feel' any difference and/or felt it went away after a while. Sorry folks, I don't believe it.

If there was, there must indeed be something else other than software which triggers the condition, no matter if it is actually related to turbo, wastegate, HPFP or throttle-response.

If not, this is purely software-related.


I find this question interesting in one aspect:

If it is a pure software problem (as I hope), BMW will most likely fix it. The failure to acknowledge that there is a problem would then be related to lemon-law considerations (they know that the car must come to the shop at least two time more, if they fix it now by downgrading). This position would change when there is a fix.

If there is a triggering condition, there is two possibilities:

1. BMW has no clue about what triggers it, lacking error codes. This would also explain why there are somewhat unaware of a common problem.

2. They know what the culprit is, but it is expensive to fix like new turbos. Denying that there is a problem might save them a few bucks.

In both cases, we should not expect a software fix. Whenever I hear about a new Progman version that is somehow related to the 335i DME but does not fix the lag issue, I would be led to thinking something else than just the software is wrong.

Other than most of you, I am in the lucky position to have no actual problem (back to v27, yippie!). But if a triggering condition exists, I will make sure that the underlying problem is fixed before my 2 year warranty is up. I am not going to stay at v27 forever. After all, I want to drive that car for some time and almost any problem that comes up in the future can make an update neccessary.


So, is there anyone who can convince me he has v29.2 or v30 and has no lag?

the instances i'm thinking about i've read on here but i have not tried to find them again. they said they got the latest progman and the hardware fix and results were no lag.

i am convinced there are people with 29.2 that don't experience lag. I started a poll on 1addicts, maybe we can do one here, but the results seem to show that people with various hardware/software combinations get the lag. http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13992

here's a couple of posts i got in that thread:

"I have a May Build, so I'm betting on 29.2 software, and the car lags like my Evo below 3k rpm."

"I have v81 manual car, but not a jot of lag. Car pulls like a freight train at 1500rpm and above. July build."

so software makes a diffirence, but there HAS to be an outside variable.

[stressdoc]

I am thinking that the pressure wave slams from the wastegate opening and closing during high rpm/high load shifts is causing problems, and Progman 29.x and higher were designed to soften the transition. This slows our cars down only a tiny bit, but probably accentuates the feeling of lag. Peak hp and torque are unaffected, but the car feels different.

So, for example, wheelspin is reduced because power onset after a shift from 1 - 2 gear is reduced. This might be different for step vs. manual.

[mistermojorizin]

Originally Posted by stressdoc

I am thinking that the pressure wave slams from the wastegate opening and closing during high rpm/high load shifts is causing problems, and Progman 29.x and higher were designed to soften the transition. This slows our cars down only a tiny bit, but probably accentuates the feeling of lag. Peak hp and torque are unaffected, but the car feels different.

So, for example, wheelspin is reduced because power onset after a shift from 1 - 2 gear is reduced. This might be different for step vs. manual.

if you shift hard into 2nd do your wheels spin? mine do, even I have all the traction control ON. But if I'm takign a turn (heel/toe b4 the turn), I know i can just floor it in 2nd coming out without worrying about loosing traction because power comes on so "smoothly."

[meyergru]

Originally Posted by mistermojorizin

"I have v81 manual car, but not a jot of lag. Car pulls like a freight train at 1500rpm and above. July build."

That is exactly the kind of statement I was referring to when I said I don't believe it:

It is obviously from a v81 owner (this implies at least v29.2 from the very first mile), so it is almost sure he has no proper comparison to how the car should feel. And the test drive was either months ago if it was built to order or also a v29.2 car, if not the same he bought.

I have yet to hear of someone who was upgraded, did a proper test and still says he's O.K.

[stressdoc]

On a different tangent, this issue once again points out the weaknesses in the BMW NA customer relations system. If they had more tech savvy people -- like E90fleet -- they could respond more appropriately to problems like this. The worst thing they can do is adopt an attitude culture of "oh, it's another one of those dumb internet rumor mill myths."

What they (BMW) should be doing is using forums like this to gather data that can then be fed to the engineering geeks to generate an appropriate response.

[stressdoc]

Originally Posted by mistermojorizin

if you shift hard into 2nd do your wheels spin? mine do, even I have all the traction control ON. But if I'm takign a turn (heel/toe b4 the turn), I know i can just floor it in 2nd coming out without worrying about loosing traction because power comes on so "smoothly."

Depends how you define "shift hard." Any car can chirp if you slam the clutch at high rpm.

My quasi-objective measure of power onset is to floor it in 2nd gear at different rpm. My initial Progman would break the tire(s) loose (still have not installed my Quaife LSD yet ) at around 3.4k and up. My current progman does not. 1st gear, yes, 2nd gear, not so much. Same tires, temp, road surface.

Maybe these Progman changes are intended to set up the market for the BMW Performance tune...

[Quisp]

I had posted this theory a while back regarding the lag issue. I believe that it was put into the updates so that BMW will not have to do more HPFP or wastegate repairs under warranty. That would become very costly to BMW over time, but the cost of doing a ECU update is small in comparison. Then taking their chances with the disgruntled owners, like us, they would still come out ahead dollar wise.
Another reason I beleive this is true is from what i have read it seems that getting a Dinan upgrade seems to increase the chance of the HPFP going sooner. The Dinan upgrade removes the lag from the car. So, if taking the lag out increases odds of HPFP failure then it would seem the lag protects the HPFP.

I am not a mechanic so I do not know what the 29.2 does to the engine to create the problem, but here is a post from Shiv at Vishnu. He was able to look at 29.2 and get some idea of what it does to the engine:

Spent the past week doing testing on the new 29.2 ECU update. Learned a few interesting things. I'll just try to highlight the major points here.

Compared to 28.x, 29.2 is very eager to cut throttle (loggable via obd-II reader) if it sees things it doesn't like. What it doesn't like isn't what I expected to see. I had initially expected it to monitor fuel output (short-term fuel trim in particular) and protest when it seems abnormally high fuel consumption (typical when running higher than stock boost). It didn't seem to exhibit this behavior at all.

Instead, most of it seems to cut throttle based upon boost management implausabilities. The tricky bit is that it is not obvious to the driver. When it cuts throttle to 50%, you might only lose 20-50lbft which is certainly noticeable but not entirely obvious. By "boost management implausaiblities" I mean perceived wastegate duty cycle necessary to acheive the boost target. With v3, our PID based boost control system keeps the ECU's perceived duty cycle wherever we want it. With one simple change, we were able to keep throttle from closing whereas before it would spend most of the single gear pull between 40 and 50% throttle.

Those who have OBD loggers and try to datalog actual throttle opening and see if their tune is inducing throttle closure.

Normal throttle opening behavior is as such: Upon WOT, you will see throttle open fully. A fraction of a second later, It may cut back down to 40-60% for a fraction of a second. After that, it should reman wide open until the rest of the run. This is good.

Abnormal throttle opening behavior is as such: Upon WOT, you will see throttle open fully. A fraction of a second later, It may cut back down to 40-60% and stay there for most of the run. You may see spikes upwards as it tries to open the throttle fully (and decides not to). And power will be lowered and reasonably inconsistent. This is not good. Wheather this behavior, or something else (like fuel flow) induces the "manipulation" code remains to be seen soon.

Another change is that wastegate duty during cruise/low load conditions has been lowered to 15-20% instead of 40-50% as with earlier ECU software versions. This makes the turbos feel a bit less responsive as well as makes the exhaust sound a bit louder/burblier.

There's more to 29.2 but this was the most obvious. The good news is that we should be able to solve every issue (as well as whatever BMW can conceivably throw our way in the future). The bad news is that any tune that is not controlling boost directly is going to have a rough time with the new update.

Here is the link to that thread:
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=142298

More stuff for your brains to play with.

Oh yeah, I say we call both those people. I am sure that they will report the calls to someone if they get a bunch(noone likes to check their voiice mailbox and hear..."you have 35 new messages") If anyone gets another name or is transferred to someone, write their name down and we will call their ass too!