[Syndicategt]

Been running a JB3 for 30K miles now and have had ZERO issues related to the tune. Can't go wrong with both tunes, or even GIAC for that matter.

[Mike@N54Tuning.com]

Originally Posted by cstavaru

I really think that technically speaking, Dinan is the safest tune (if you do not take into account the BMW Power Kit). Dinan drops the boost at high RPMs in order to not affect the engine life. They also offer a warranty and this tells alot.

On the second place I would place GIAC. Although they are a bit more aggressive than Dinan, they run rich in order to keep the engine cool.

I would place the piggybacks on the last place. The horsepower race and the tuner wars has pushed them to raise the boost to insane levels all the way to the top RPMs, and they do not run as rich as the flash tunes because (I think) technical limitations.

On the air/fuel the JB3 can be configured to run as rich or lean as you want. Many of the JB3 nitrous customers run as rich as 10.8:1 up top for that extra safety margin/EGT reduction.

Here is a cool video I saw this morning from a JB3 customer testing the new CAN tool. He has timing on the fuel gauge set to empty = 0 degrees and full = 20 degrees, and air intake temperature on the oil gauge set to min = 60 degrees, middle = 120 degrees, and max = 180 degrees.

He's running map 7 (~15-15.5psi) on 91 octane with zero mods. Basically a worst case scenario for pushing the boundaries since the suggested map is 3. But what is interesting is watching how fluid the timing movement it. It happily and quickly ranges itself to even these extreme conditions. Also fun to watch timing drop negative during the shifts and the IAT skyrocketing during the run!

Mike

[Doug007]

The JB3 showing the timing is one thing, retarding timing with increased boost is a whole different thing.

I'm not saying JB3 timing isn't safe. But I think PROcede timing is SAFER.

[OpenFlash]

Not sure why mike is posting videos of a product that isn't yet available. And what's the point of showing timing advance without the ability to change it?

[ma1kmcn1]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

Not sure why mike is posting videos of a product that isn't yet available. And what's the point of showing timing advance without the ability to change it?

Nothing wants to make me buy a Procede or JB3 less than watching you two bicker back and forth like a couple of three year olds. What ever happened to professionalism?

[Mike@N54Tuning.com]

Originally Posted by Doug007

The JB3 showing the timing is one thing, retarding timing with increased boost is a whole different thing.

I'm not saying JB3 timing isn't safe. But I think PROcede timing is SAFER.

This whole timing debate has been going on since the JB3s distant cousin, the JB1, which came out 4 years ago. Here we are many thousands of tunes and tens of millions of customer driven miles later without a single stock turbo engine failure. More than I can say for the tunes that offer CPS offset. The proof is really in the pudding.

CPS is not timing control, it is an advance limiter. There is a difference. And if you understand how the N54 timing advance system works you'll understand it's always testing the waters slowly moving up to a set point. Sure, if you CPS offset 3 degrees then it will stop testing the waters at say 11 degrees instead of say 14 degrees. But in reality you're going to be sitting much lower on the timing curve anyway never hitting even the reduced ceiling. How many people hit 11-12 degrees @ 4200rpm with their CPS offsetting in place? Because that is the ceiling when maxing out octane. So if you're sitting even 1 degree lower the ECU is still continually adding in timing and removing it based on knock sensor feedback. If you try to set the CPS offset so large that the ECU has no upward movement by their own admission the car becomes sluggish and non-responsive.

The video I thought was an interesting demonstration of how the timing naturally happily floats around even in extreme situations. It will go back as far back as it needs to sit a safe distance from knock. Including even running negative timing @ wot! To digress there are quite a few of the BMS can tools undergoing beta testing right now. Monitoring timing is a great way to know how close to the octane limits you are. As you get closer to the limit timing becomes less stable and you know to reduce the boost pressure. Or better yet one of these days the JB3 will be able to reduce it for you automatically.

Mike

[OpenFlash]

Interesting how as recently as last year, you/Terry insisted that CPS offsetting didn't do anything until we (and our customers) proved otherwise with overwhelming evidence. I am still somewhat dismayed by your tendency to coin new terms (advance limiting, for instance) just to create some degree (no pun intended) of disagreement. Fwiw, why do you refer to it as limiting when we can also increase the timing setpoint? And if we can increase it AND decrease as we see fit, as a function of load, rpm and actual timing, then it's fair to say we have timing control. This does not mean that the timing setpoint has to equal actual timing since that deviation is a function of knock control activity.

Mike- I'd suggest you really try to understand the things that Terry is asking you to post because it is misleading and deceptive. Anyone who had followed these "tech" debates over the last 2 years can see just how many times BMS has changed thier tune, so to speak, with regards to what works and what doesn't. Yet never an admittance to any historical lack of understanding.

[AltecBX]

I do like the IAT temp on oil gauge. To me I like it more than the AFR reading as I have stock IC & would love to see how the warmer temp affects my performance.
I also don't see the point in displaying timing if it's not changing it during the process.

[Mike@N54Tuning.com]

Originally Posted by AltecBX

I do like the IAT temp on oil gauge. To me I like it more than the AFR reading as I have stock IC & would love to see how the warmer temp affects my performance.
I also don't see the point in displaying timing if it's not changing it during the process.

The IAT is a cool feature and so is the shift light. There will soon be a knock detection option on it also to flash the SES light if the CAN tool detects knock activity. On the timing it's absolutely changing all the time, always perfectly set for your conditions right at the moment (auto learning), unless you happen to run too much boost for your octane. And the SES flash will let you know that.

Mike

[scalbert]

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

This whole timing debate has been going on since the JB3s distant cousin, the JB1, which came out 4 years ago.

Please do not blatantly lie. I am confident Terry would not even say this. The JB1 came out barely 3 years ago which is a 25% error. If making that stretch on this marketing point, what else are you stretching?

And please stop posting about items you have no clue about testing. Let's conduct a controlled tests of the effects of offsetting the crank sensor and see the DME response. I have offered many times but most would rather stick their head in the sand. I'll preface this by saying that I still do not know that it is needed as the DME works well. But I would rather side on the safe side.

I was just thinking about how the JB2 was promoted as being safe but now is relegated as being amateur, i.e. no microprocessor control; just analog. Seems the delivered message changes bases on time and what is available.

To all others. Terry (aka BMS) queried Shiv on the parameters of the original PROcede starting back in May of 2007 and even scoped a PROcede customer car to determine the resistor values in the fueling components. To the point of using the exact same resistors even though the ratio is just needed, not the actual values. Hence, the JB1 was born on or near July of 2007 with the JB2 coming out shortly thereafter. I would say that by most accounts, that is three years and not four. Point being, rounding should be done correctly.

There is more to the story but I don't care to go into it.

[scalbert]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

And if we can increase it AND decrease as we see fit, as a function of load, rpm and actual timing, then it's fair to say we have timing control. This does not mean that the timing setpoint has to equal actual timing since that deviation is a function of knock control activity.

Mike- I'd suggest you really try to understand the things that Terry is asking you to post because it is misleading and deceptive. Anyone who had followed these "tech" debates over the last 2 years can see just how many times BMS has changed thier tune, so to speak, with regards to what works and what doesn't. Yet never an admittance to any historical lack of understanding.

Unfortunately it is far easier to accept information than to try and understand it. This goes for many of the customers as well as vendors I see posting. As the statement goes, "ignorance is bliss". and that is the golden message to the customers.

[EDM92]

Originally Posted by scalbert

Unfortunately it is far easier to accept information than to try and understand it. This goes for many of the customers as well as vendors I see posting. As the statement goes, "ignorance is bliss". and that is the golden message to the customers.

We need a "like" button like facebook, so I can "like" posts like this

P.S. Using the word like four times in one sentence is phenomenal.

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by scalbert

Unfortunately it is far easier to accept information than to try and understand it. This goes for many of the customers as well as vendors I see posting. As the statement goes, "ignorance is bliss". and that is the golden message to the customers.

This is the truth unfortunately.

[dbjb]

Safest: Tortilla.

Stay the F away from DORITOS® 3rd Degree Burn Scorchin' Habanero

[EDM92]

Originally Posted by dsbj

Safest: Tortilla.

Stay the F away from DORITOS® 3rd Degree Burn Scorchin' Habanero

LOL

[Forcefed3]

Originally Posted by BrianMN

Ignorance is bliss

Why do you have to say stupid shit about everything i post. He wanted an answer i gave one to him. Do you have anything better to do with your life?

[BrianMN]

Originally Posted by gbreeE90

Why do you have to say stupid shit about everything i post. He wanted an answer i gave one to him. Do you have anything better to do with your life?

By the look of the well-educated people's posts above, it doesn't seem so stupid does it?

[02themax]

Both tunes do the same thing, they make power. Buy which one make you "feel" safe.

[Ilma]

You guy's need to be careful about trying to tell Mike he is incompetent to be arguing at this level.

I posted yesterday about his failure to wire up a simple plug & play harness for me and this is how he responded:


"Whats your issue

I don't get the personal attack. I have done nothing but help you and you post this crap? First I am hearing of a wiring issue. If I miswired something why wouldn't you tell me but bring it up a year and a half later?

You really are unbelievable.

Mike"

I do understand how he feels about me for posting these things, but the point is it's time to give up this facade of pretending. That is why I am sharing my experiences. I find it completely incredible that someone who makes fundamental wiring mistakes and has to be told that the BT tool can only log stock boost levels, can then turn around and argue on these forums at the levels of an experienced programmer/tuner.

Those who know Mike, know that he does not have the depth of knowledge nor the background of a trained engineer or a tuner.

That is what my problem is.

I would much prefer that E90 reinstate Terry and let him debate directly rather than going through a proxy like Mike who obviously is not always Mike.

[BrianMN]

Originally Posted by Ilma

You guy's need to be careful about trying to tell Mike he is incompetent to be arguing at this level.

I posted yesterday about his failure to wire up a simple plug & play harness for me and this is how he responded:


"Whats your issue

I don't get the personal attack. I have done nothing but help you and you post this crap? First I am hearing of a wiring issue. If I miswired something why wouldn't you tell me but bring it up a year and a half later?

You really are unbelievable.

Mike"

I do understand how he feels about me for posting these things, but the point is it's time to give up this facade of pretending. That is why I am sharing my experiences. I find it completely incredible that someone who makes fundamental wiring mistakes and has to be told that the BT tool can only log stock boost levels, can then turn around and argue on these forums at the levels of an experienced programmer/tuner.

Those who know Mike, know that he does not have the depth of knowledge nor the background of a trained engineer or a tuner.

That is what my problem is.

I would much prefer that E90 reinstate Terry and let him debate directly rather than going through a proxy like Mike who obviously is not always Mike.

Even with that said, I'd say he does put a lot of effort into 'helping' out the community on this forum, and seems like a nice guy.

If only he were working for Vishnu instead of BMS...that'd be a rock-solid sales team, haha. Even though the PROcede basically sells itself.

[Ilma]

Originally Posted by BrianMN

Even with that said, I'd say he does put a lot of effort into 'helping' out the community on this forum, and seems like a nice guy.

True enough.......

My comments aren't really about Mike the person, they are more about the BMS marketing strategy that perpetuates the facade.

Unfortunately Mike is just caught in the middle.

I'm not saying they are bad people, even though they are saying that about me.

I just find the whole facade lacks credibility based on my interactions with him.

[BrianMN]

Originally Posted by Ilma

True enough.......

My comments aren't really about Mike the person, they are more about the BMS marketing strategy that perpetuates the facade.

Unfortunately Mike is just caught in the middle.

I'm not saying they are bad people, even though they are saying that about me.

I just find the whole facade lacks credibility based on my interactions with him.

Agreed. I too think it'd be best for Terry to be allowed here to defend his tune in his own words. Mike is a good salesman, but as you said, it isn't fair to him or anyone for him to have to defend the JB3 and provide in- depth technical information.