[BobS]

Originally Posted by Clap135

Yes, thats why with ATR you can set your own timing curve. Not deal with a curve that is meant to be run for 1000s of cars in various conditions. You deal with your car and your car only.

So in GIAC's case, they would be a generic tune (your referring to) meant for a wide variety of conditions? I would assume you would further leave some power on the table but have the piece of mind you are safe. If GIAC offered custom tuning like Cobb says they eventually will, you could specifically tune to your car. I'm not being a smart a$$, i'm asking.

This is why i went with a flash, nothing against piggy's but I don't claim to be a tuner or anyone that even wants to mess with all the settings, tuning, etc. It can cost big $ if something goes wrong. I wanted something that gives me more power and something I didn't have to mess with and a relatively safe solution.

I hope the situation isn't as bad as we think for the OP.

[tscdennab]

Originally Posted by Clap135

There is a difference in knocking at 7psi vs 15psi

The stock tune is 8.7psi. How about the Z4 35is or 1M which does 12psi (edit: 14.5psi) in overboost mode ?

[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

Originally Posted by tscdennab

The stock tune is 8.7psi. How about the Z4 35is or 1M which does 12psi (edit: 14.5psi) in overboost mode ?

I'm sure BMW remapped the ignition load tables accordingly for the extra boost.

What people forget is a car DESIGNED(tuned from the factory) to run 8 PSI is fine and dandy. However, increased boost and no ignition changes RELIES on the knock sensor to detune ignition. Which in turn you have a car sitting on the brink of knock its whole driving life. Leavings no tolerance and room for comfort.

Clap was simply referring to those boost numbers arbitrarily, showing a correlation that when you are using more boost the tolerance for knock is less.

[Clap135]

Originally Posted by tscdennab

The stock tune is 8.7psi. How about the Z4 35is or 1M which does 12psi (edit: 14.5psi) in overboost mode ?

8.7 psi really? When is the last time you logged your car. I spent months try to satisfy the ecu when developing the standback. My car came nowhere near 8.7 psi. It was 7.x falling to like 3-4 at redline.

As for the IS and M versions of the n54, their timing curve is already preset lower from the factor then your traditions 1i 3i 5i whatever i n54.

[themyst]

I actually saw the timing curve on a 335is stock; it is a near mirror image of the stock n54 curve, only 5 degrees lower across the board.

[MDORPHN]

Originally Posted by Imperator

I knew this thread would turn into a shitfest among people who want to argue over a 9HP difference among tunes-- don't expect them to understand how the DME can utilize a completely different timing map for pump gas once knock retard sets in.

Don't know if this should be taken into a new thread and hoping to avoid a bashfest, but can you explain to me the different approaches regarding timing and knock avoidance employed in the newest version of Vishnu's Procede and Cobb's AccessPort?

Thanks.

Neil

[Clap135]

Originally Posted by themyst

I actually saw the timing curve on a 335is stock; it is a near mirror image of the stock n54 curve, only 5 degrees lower across the board.

point prooven. However the question is what is that ecu programmed to run during perfect conditions. If bmw was smart, it should be alot lower than the n54i version.

[themyst]

Originally Posted by Clap135

point prooven. However the question is what is that ecu programmed to run during perfect conditions. If bmw was smart, it should be alot lower than the n54i version.

My question is what is the maximum allowable ignition advance on a 335is? Does it have the same range as the stock n54 dme?

[tscdennab]

Originally Posted by Clap135

8.7 psi really? When is the last time you logged your car. I spent months try to satisfy the ecu when developing the standback. My car came nowhere near 8.7 psi. It was 7.x falling to like 3-4 at redline.

As for the IS and M versions of the n54, their timing curve is already preset lower from the factor then your traditions 1i 3i 5i whatever i n54.

So again, how do these cars (335is, 1M, Z4 35is) which boost to 14.5psi adapt to changes in octane ? Do they use the knock sensor or not ? Does the ECU pull timing on these cars or not ? And when it pulls timing, does it do it based on the knock sensor signal or not ?

[themyst]

Originally Posted by tscdennab

So again, how do these cars (335is, 1M, Z4 35is) which boost to 14.5psi adapt to changes in octane ? Do they use the knock sensor or not ?

Did you miss the part about how the targeted curve is far lower on the is vs the I?

[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

Originally Posted by tscdennab

So again, how do these cars (335is, 1M, Z4 35is) which boost to 14.5psi adapt to changes in octane ? Do they use the knock sensor or not ?

IT works the same was as the regular N54 DME. If it does indeed knock it will lower ignition. Or it will meet its pre designed ignition tables if octane allows. Just because its runs more boost doesnt mean you need to reinvent the wheel. The car is tuned for boost, and the hardware is designed to account for changing conditions just like the N54.

[Imperator]

Originally Posted by MDORPHN

Don't know if this should be taken into a new thread and hoping to avoid a bashfest, but can you explain to me the different approaches regarding timing and knock avoidance employed in the newest version of Vishnu's Procede and Cobb's AccessPort?

Thanks.

Neil

It's worth opening a new thread-- this one should be about Moe's car, which we don't yet know is even related to the tune. It could be an oiling issue and he just spun a bearing.

Both tunes utilize the knock sensor. The Cobb tune re-writes or revises the high-octane timing table to play safely on pump gas with higher boost levels. Piggy-back tunes can override the stock timing table to provide the greatest amount of ignition advance (within a window) while monitoring the knock sensor for activity. It will reduce timing advance when knock occurs-- I question how quickly this adjustment occurs with KR activity and if it allows the DME to back down to the lower timing table without override.

[Clap135]

Originally Posted by tscdennab

So again, how do these cars (335is, 1M, Z4 35is) which boost to 14.5psi adapt to changes in octane ? Do they use the knock sensor or not ? Does the ECU pull timing on these cars or not ? And when it pulls timing, does it do it based on the knock sensor signal or not ?

Like already state, the base ignition of the IS model is lower then the I models. You put an I timing curve on an IS model and it will knock. The max allowable ignition has to be lower or else it nothign more then a jb4, but bmw can't be that dumb.

[SennaZ]

People should also be hesitant with "ATR" or equivalent flash mapping, that if pushed to the limit is equally dangerous since it only applies to your engine at that precise tuning opportunity. Running off brand gas, dirty air filter(s), higher temps, and even engine aging can all lead to pre-detonation issues at other times. You might want to save a more aggressive ATR map to race situations, but the OP's experience shows that people often don't do that.

[enrita]

And hopefully OP wont go silent on this...

[cn555ic]

Originally Posted by Clap135

If you want to knock for 5-10 more whp, be my guest.



There is a difference in knocking at 7psi vs 15psi.



Yes, thats why with ATR you can set your own timing curve. Not deal with a curve that is meant to be run for 1000s of cars in various conditions. You deal with your car and your car only.

You keep praising ATR but do you realize that NOT everyone is as savvy as you are when it comes to cars, so this point you keep posting is useless to 99% of the community.....Clap your a very wise person when it comes to cars but stop selling ATR when most of us just wouldnt know how to even tune our cars to that point of using ATR...Please stop already..

[MDORPHN]

Originally Posted by Imperator

It's worth opening a new thread-- this one should be about Moe's car, which we don't yet know is even related to the tune. It could be an oiling issue and he just spun a bearing.

Both tunes utilize the knock sensor. The Cobb tune re-writes or revises the high-octane timing table to play safely on pump gas with higher boost levels. Piggy-back tunes can override the stock timing table to provide the greatest amount of ignition advance (within a window) while monitoring the knock sensor for activity. It will reduce timing advance when knock occurs-- I question how quickly this adjustment occurs with KR activity and if it allows the DME to back down to the lower timing table without override.

So, doesn't the potentially critical safety issue involve how quickly the knock retard occurs and whether, in fact, a piggyback causes this to occur significantly slower than a re-flashed DME?

Neil

[R1000K3]

Has OP been in contact with the tuner before posting in public? By letting other know that the tune MAY have trashed the engine it will be difficult to have a constructive discussion with the tuner regarding the real cause for the fault, and to get compensation from the tuner IF the tune caused the fault. In a situation like this the tuner is more or less forced to blaim the user to protect his business.

[Mike@N54Tuning.com]

Originally Posted by BMOEW

Hey guys here is the rundown. Sooo
I recieved the JB4 couple of days back desided to install it about 4 days ago on saturday. Drove the car it was feeling alright on MAP 7! (used to run map 9 and up before) Long story short monday morning I get in the car and warm it up like usual. then I tried to pull out of my garage and everytime i press on the gas, a REALLY BAD BAD KNOCKING from the motor.
First I thought the Downpipe Was loose or something. Drove around a bit (I had an exam i had to go to) I got couple of check engine lights. (Deleted them through the steering with the JB4 works GREAT ) After my exam, i took it to a mechanic and he said that its internals and that the pistons or rods are hitting the head something along those lines. So I had my car towed to the dealer ship today and they are checking it to see whats wrong.
PS: I HAVE NO MOTHA F#*(*&%(#*& WARANTY

Just reread your post. There is a good chance nothing is actually wrong and you just need a fuel pump, injector, etc. But I've also heard of cars spinning main bearings, etc, so could be a shortblock problem too. LOL @ Shiv and the gang jumping all over this thread.

Mike

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by Clap135

Like already state, the base ignition of the IS model is lower then the I models. You put an I timing curve on an IS model and it will knock. The max allowable ignition has to be lower or else it nothign more then a jb4, but bmw can't be that dumb.

Yes, the IS tune boost targets 1-2 degrees less advance in the midrange even when the overboost mode isn't triggered. When it is triggered, timing targets drop more. Not to mention that the IS tune, even when running in overboost mode, doesn't target 14.5psi in the temps seen by the OP, but rather 11-12psi. And it will still see significant boost taper up top, falling off to 9-10psi by redline. Any debates about the importance of ignition advance remapping @higher than stock boost levels should be put to rest. As they should have been after the earlier failures.

This shouldn't devolve into a discussion about reflash vs piggy, custom tuning vs base maps, etc,. The issue here is the long-term effects of relying on a tune that has no active form of ignition timing control and instead relies completely on the factory knock control system. Something that no other high output tune does, whether it be reflash or piggyback, custom tuned or baseline/off-the-shelf maps.

Shiv

[Trojan4evr]

Sorry to hear that man. But I couldn't help but think that it is your own fault man. Running on map 7 and then 9 for long periods of time?

[SpmnE9zero]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

Yes, the IS tune boost targets 1-2 degrees less advance in the midrange even when the overboost mode isn't triggered. When it is triggered, timing targets drop more. Not to mention that the IS tune, even when running in overboost mode, doesn't target 14.5psi in the temps seen by the OP, but rather 11-12psi. And it will still see significant boost taper up top, falling off to 9-10psi by redline. Any debates about the importance of ignition advance remapping @higher than stock boost levels should be put to rest. As they should have been after the earlier failures.

This shouldn't devolve into a discussion about reflash vs piggy, custom tuning vs base maps, etc,. The issue here is the long-term effects of relying on a tune that has no active form of ignition timing control and instead relies completely on the factory knock control system. Something that no other high output tune does, whether it be reflash or piggyback, custom tuned or baseline/off-the-shelf maps.

Shiv

lol........ something tells me this:
"Procede v5 Autotuning (PnP): Now just $645!"

was just added to your sig when this thread was made.