[Ilma]

Originally Posted by EMITTR

Again...never said anything about more power at full throttle. Also said - I don't know Forge and the information I passed on was provided by their engineers; and I guess Forge does not even know about their own part...or maybe in talking to them I confused them....regardless...talk to them.

Does anyone even read the entire context of posts anymore? Good grief! Yet another expert.

You sure did

When you included Turbosmart's graph which makes statements as to "more power, more acceleration and less torque reduction" you implicitly endorsed and advertised their claims through inclusion in your post.

Standing back now and claiming "I never said that" after quoting and posting Turbosmart' own promotional material really looks bad on you because you are substantiating their claims in your dialogue.

I kept out of this post up until the point where you referred to the forge as being a "diaphragm" based valve. I don't need to talk to forge as I have opened mine up and can see with my own eyes that this is NOT the case.

So you are factually incorrect as seem a lot of the claims being made here.

This community of enthusiasts exists to communicate information so that other members can make informed decisions about aftermarket/performance parts.

In correcting some of the errors that you are publishing we are not being "experts" at all but rather exposing the misinformation so that people can make decisions based on facts rather than perception.

[Jklad]

I think the forge dvs cost less than these, i picked up mine for $325 a couple years ago

[EMITTR]

Originally Posted by Ilma

You sure did

When you included Turbosmart's graph which makes statements as to "more power, more acceleration and less torque reduction" you implicitly endorsed and advertised their claims through inclusion in your post.

Standing back now and claiming "I never said that" after quoting and posting Turbosmart' own promotional material really looks bad on you because you are substantiating their claims in your dialogue.

I kept out of this post up until the point where you referred to the forge as being a "diaphragm" based valve. I don't need to talk to forge as I have opened mine up and can see with my own eyes that this is NOT the case.

So you are factually incorrect as seem a lot of the claims being made here.

This community of enthusiasts exists to communicate information so that other members can make informed decisions about aftermarket/performance parts.

In correcting some of the errors that you are publishing we are not being "experts" at all but rather exposing the misinformation so that people can make decisions based on facts rather than perception.

No problem on pointing out errors - as others have done and I have thanked them for pointing that out...and I have corrected info based on their feedback. No problem with that. Passing on the Forge engineer's comments...if they are in error and you are pointing that out - great. Possibly, I can go back and confirm with them as maybe they misunderstood what I was saying or maybe I misunderstood them. Again, no problem. Disagreeing with the numbers or curves in a graph by TS...take it up with TS. The graph backs up my experience with their product. How does posting test results look bad when the Tuners I have gone to are having similar results that support the graph and recommended TS...believe I said this too. Trying to triangulate disprove data I am sure TS can stand behind and support...priceless. Anyone can do that with a waive of the hand. If you want to disprove data...post contrasting facts - simple. Again as I have said, anyone can fudge numbers but I do not believe TS has. I am not the first to see similar results with their DVs which is why after reading up on them, speaking with their engineers, and considering the recommendations of many people - I chose them.

Simple point is - they were installed and the result stands up to TS claims. As advertised period. You don't like that...not my issue. This is my experience. So...run your Forge and be happy. Or run TS and be happy. Or run your "whatever" and be happy. Whatever "implicitly" floats your boat.


...one more thing.


please.

[EMITTR]

Originally Posted by Jklad

I think the forge dvs cost less than these, i picked up mine for $325 a couple years ago

They do normally from what I have seen.

[kiteboy]

Ilma, so DV forge is better else you?

[davidwarren]

I don't want to go completely off topic, but has anyone used the Roc Euro diverter valves? They are $250.

http://roc-euro.com/shop-by-vehicle/...r-for-n54.html

[TT-Tom]

Originally Posted by EMITTR

obviously you have not read the context of the entire post or followed the links or digested many of the contrasting/comparative comments/information. Meh...not stating all this again with the exception of the DVs being installed incorrectly...not going to address that because the answer is just too simple. You want to debate...run for congress. You are the expert....do what you want. Let me know if you work on airplanes though as I stated above...

The answer is too simple? The answer is, the picture you posted is the valves installed incorrectly....so not too sure what your point is there.
I'm not debating anything, a vast majority of people here and on this post with working knowledge have all told you that you are wrong...
Please tell us what airline you work for so we can avoid it all costs! Good thing this is a car forum and has nothing to do with aeronautics, just common sense, its your car so I don't really care. What I do care about, and why I responded, is so people know not to follow your lead. BTW you don't know my background and I don't know yours, so I don't understand why you have to resort that....

[EMITTR]

It's ok. Look up ignorance next. Guess TS does not know what they are doing...right? What a buffoon.

[Sgop335]

Originally Posted by davidwarren

I don't want to go completely off topic, but has anyone used the Roc Euro diverter valves? They are $250.

http://roc-euro.com/shop-by-vehicle/...r-for-n54.html

Thats what i have. Works great. Seriously, the plastic dv needs to go.

[2jzn54]

Originally Posted by davidwarren

I don't want to go completely off topic, but has anyone used the Roc Euro diverter valves? They are $250.

http://roc-euro.com/shop-by-vehicle/...r-for-n54.html

never tried em, but thats my hometown.. ill reach out to a few people and see what the deal is..

[2jzn54]

Originally Posted by EMITTR

It's ok. Look up ignorance next. Guess TS does not know what they are doing...right? What a buffoon.

it seems to be more you and/or what you are relaying and less TS since no one from TS has spoken nor has anyone else "reached out".. that said Forge DVs have been pretty good throughout the years across many platforms are cheaper and have interchangeable springs biased towards your boost levels.. so I'm not sure what the benefit is to choose these over the Forge, but as always to each their own and in due time we'll see how these hold up in the long term no other way to find out. They look solid for sure, but personally I don't see a reason to choose TS over Forge.

and for the record I've been running the stock turbos to the ground ever since I picked up the car and I'm still on the stock 'plastic nasties" DVs with no issues holding boost and no issues with compressor surge. Stock DVs are prone to a higher failure rate when you turn up the boost, but they are not "garbage". DV/BOV upgrades tend to be one of those items that half the time generate sales off of the marketing some of which is just blatantly false.. In reality its one of those if it aint broke don't fix it items.. If you have a boost leak due to the DVs or if you have upgraded turbos hell yes go ahead and upgrade, if not leave it alone.

[EMITTR]

[QUOTE

it seems to be more you and/or what you are relaying and less TS since no one from TS has spoken nor has anyone else "reached out".. that said Forge DVs have been pretty good throughout the years across many platforms are cheaper and have interchangeable springs biased towards your boost levels.. so I'm not sure what the benefit is to choose these over the Forge, but as always to each their own and in due time we'll see how these hold up in the long term no other way to find out. They look solid for sure, but personally I don't see a reason to choose TS over Forge.

and for the record I've been running the stock turbos to the ground ever since I picked up the car and I'm still on the stock 'plastic nasties" DVs with no issues holding boost and no issues with compressor surge. Stock DVs are prone to a higher failure rate when you turn up the boost, but they are not "garbage". DV/BOV upgrades tend to be one of those items that half the time generate sales off of the marketing some of which is just blatantly false.. In reality its one of those if it aint broke don't fix it items.. If you have a boost leak due to the DVs or if you have upgraded turbos hell yes go ahead and upgrade, if not leave it alone.[/QUOTE]


Anyone can call TS just like I did or Forge. As I said...i think they (OEM) are crappy. Everyone has an opinion. Disagree? Cool. I do not work for TS.... Just like their product based on the results I had. I had no problems being exhibited with the plastics and when I looked through the test data some want purport to be falsified i say the results are inline with TS published figures. Anyone can pick up the phone and call and ask the same questions I have. If you like the plastic nasties.... Run them...keep em. If you don't believe the TS data.... Ok...fine. If you change them out and experience a marked difference as i have and others cool. If you use Forge.... Cool. Does not matter. The trust of this post is my opinion... You don't like it...then you don't. Not a thing wrong with that.

And I don't believe I knocked Forge.... Just the opposite. I said from what i was told and coukd confirm.... They seemed to be more adjustable for specific PSI ranges.... But I do not have experience with Forge. Not running 'em. Cannot say one way if they are better or worse or on par...what you have said about them basically agrees with what has been posted. The info I posted is what was passed on to me by engineering support. TS also gave me some incorrect info as is cited in this thread either because they misunderstood my question or I asked the wrong question. immediately someone caught it and corrected the error ( don't turn the top of the DVs unless you want to dent in your hood) which is the nature of posting info for public scrutiny....and so that bit of information was corrected. More eyes on the better. So not sure if you think I am slamming Forge or saying TS is better....never said that....but if you read the thread....i am slamming the plastic not any aftermarket BPV or BOV. As I said.... After pulling these things out of the car more low end torque. Were my plastics leaking? Who knows as i did not test them. I did run them by a buddy if mine who is a mechanical engineer and works on just about everything and he was of the same opinion... Crappy. So if you think they are ok... Great. I don't. And my ride agrees.

I do agree there is marketing hype in everything. They want you to buy their product. No problem there. Problem comes is when the marketing is blatantly false as you have pointed out... Only way to vet that is through user feedback. Did it work as advertised? What I am saying is ... Yes... It did.

Should have had the tuner who installed them dyno the car and see.

[EMITTR]

Originally Posted by Daily Three

it seems to be more you and/or what you are relaying and less TS since no one from TS has spoken nor has anyone else "reached out".. that said Forge DVs have been pretty good throughout the years across many platforms are cheaper and have interchangeable springs biased towards your boost levels.. so I'm not sure what the benefit is to choose these over the Forge, but as always to each their own and in due time we'll see how these hold up in the long term no other way to find out. They look solid for sure, but personally I don't see a reason to choose TS over Forge.

and for the record I've been running the stock turbos to the ground ever since I picked up the car and I'm still on the stock 'plastic nasties" DVs with no issues holding boost and no issues with compressor surge. Stock DVs are prone to a higher failure rate when you turn up the boost, but they are not "garbage". DV/BOV upgrades tend to be one of those items that half the time generate sales off of the marketing some of which is just blatantly false.. In reality its one of those if it aint broke don't fix it items.. If you have a boost leak due to the DVs or if you have upgraded turbos hell yes go ahead and upgrade, if not leave it alone.

What would really take all the subjectivity out of this if someone found the MTBF data for the plastics vs aftermarket. Then there would hard factual data. I am sure BMW has and knows this but will not release it... I as the manufacturer would not release it eirher. For it to be accepted more than one disinterested party would have to provide that data and that is very unlikely. Until that day it is all opinionated.

[2jzn54]

Originally Posted by EMITTR

Anyone can call TS just like I did or Forge. As I said...i think they (OEM) are crappy. Everyone has an opinion. Disagree? Cool. I do not work for TS.... Just like their product based on the results I had. I had no problems being exhibited with the plastics and when I looked through the test data some want purport to be falsified i say the results are inline with TS published figures. Anyone can pick up the phone and call and ask the same questions I have. If you like the plastic nasties.... Run them...keep em. If you don't believe the TS data.... Ok...fine. If you change them out and experience a marked difference as i have and others cool. If you use Forge.... Cool. Does not matter. The trust of this post is my opinion... You don't like it...then you don't. Not a thing wrong with that.

And I don't believe I knocked Forge.... Just the opposite. I said from what i was told and coukd confirm.... They seemed to be more adjustable for specific PSI ranges.... But I don not have experience with Forge. Cannt say one way if they are better or worse or on par....with what you have said about them basically agrees with what has been posted. The info I posted is what was passed on to me by engineering support. TS also gave me some incorrect info as is cited in this thread either because they misunderstood my question or I asked the wrong question. immediately someone caught it and corrected the error which is the nature of posting info for public scrutiny.... More eyes on the better. So not sure if you think I am Slamming Forge but if you read the thread....i am slamming the plastic not any aftermarket BPV or BOV. As I said.... After pulling these thing out of the car more low end torque. Were my plastics leaking? Who knows as i did not test them. I did run them by a buddy if mine who is a mechanical engineer and he was if the same opinion as I.... Crappy. So if you think ther are ok... Great. I don't. And my car agrees.

You could go ahead and read my post again if you'd like. I never said anything about you knocking Forge or one being superior to the other. I said I don't get the benefit of paying more for something that isn't adjustable when there is a proven product that is for less. Great to have another product on the platform.. Just push come to shove I would take the Forge route.

I did say you were relaying some odd information by odd I mean bad, which is what makes it hard for some people to find some of this credible. I'm not going to go back and dig every line because its past my bed time and unnecessary.

Also I negged your stance on the stock DVs. Yes you are entitled to your opinion.. but my opinion is that god doesn't exist. science or some form of it works and that if the stock DVs hold they hold thats it.. You did not check if you had a leak before swapping your DVs out which is good and fine most people don't, but hey if you noticed an improvement chances are they weren't holding boost through the band.. I'd think someone in aerospace would put 2 and 2 together there. in this case its not a matter of opinion its a matter of fact. Fact is you have only provided data that TS has relayed to you.. Marketing material suggests that suggests at FACTORY levels you see a benefit from the TS.... Guess what if you really think taking manufacturer marketing data is the way to go I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell ya..

Show me a before and after on your car.. Then you will have a start for usable data. Show me back to back dyno runs on the same day one with the factory DVs and one with the TS DVs. Check to see if your factory DVs were in fact holding fine. I don't expect you to do this and I'm not challenging you to do it, but thats what you need to do to get any sort of real data especially with a product no one here has used. I made 436 wtq on a DJ back in early 2012 when I was only running pump gas on a conservative piggy tune. Plenty of TQ down low coming from your beloved stock DVs. Those are facts and I do have those unmolested dynos.

Right now you don't have usable data. You have marketing material which is how they create the opinion of a heard of sheep.

All said I'm not negging the TS at all. Just the marketing material being presented as factual data.

[EMITTR]

Originally Posted by Daily Three

You could go ahead and read my post again if you'd like. I never said anything about you knocking Forge or one being superior to the other. I said I don't get the benefit of paying more for something that isn't adjustable when there is a proven product that is for less. Great to have another product on the platform.. Just push come to shove I would take the Forge route.

I did say you were relaying some odd information by odd I mean bad, which is what makes it hard for some people to find some of this credible. I'm not going to go back and dig every line because its past my bed time and unnecessary.

Also I negged your stance on the stock DVs. Yes you are entitled to your opinion.. but my opinion is that god doesn't exist. science or some form of it works and that if the stock DVs hold they hold thats it.. You did not check if you had a leak before swapping your DVs out which is good and fine most people don't, but hey if you noticed an improvement chances are they weren't holding boost through the band.. I'd think someone in aerospace would put 2 and 2 together there. in this case its not a matter of opinion its a matter of fact. Fact is you have only provided data that TS has relayed to you.. Marketing material suggests that suggests at FACTORY levels you see a benefit from the TS.... Guess what if you really think taking manufacturer marketing data is the way to go I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell ya..

Show me a before and after on your car.. Then you will have a start for usable data. Show me back to back dyno runs on the same day one with the factory DVs and one with the TS DVs. Check to see if your factory DVs were in fact holding fine. I don't expect you to do this and I'm not challenging you to do it, but thats what you need to do to get any sort of real data especially with a product no one here has used. I made 436 wtq on a DJ back in early 2012 when I was only running pump gas on a conservative piggy tune. Plenty of TQ down low coming from your beloved stock DVs. Those are facts and I do have those unmolested dynos.

Right now you don't have usable data. You have marketing material which is how they create the opinion of a heard of sheep.

All said I'm not negging the TS at all. Just the marketing material being presented as factual data.

And if you go back and read what I paid for the TS... I paid what is close to the Forge price.

You are entitled to your opinion and you have stated it. I have stated mine....

As i am given information by TS and or Forge I post it... If it is incorrect I call them back and verify/ ask and post the update. In the absence of empirical data search for accurate and vetted information is an ongoing process. And yes... This is one-sided as it is about a TS part and the results.

Not arguing your useable data... There needs to be more of it across the board with the exact parts...Hence this thread. And exactly my point on the removal of the stock DVs and the results of that removal..... Just as others have stated.... Same result and matches the TS data... All I'm saying. And my DVs other than being plastic were visibly in excellent shape. You can disagree and you do.... I disagree with your assessment that TS data is invalid. Just because they are using it to market their product does not invalidate their data.... A logical fallacy. Again TS, Forge, or other. Better than OEM....my opinion explicit and implied.

[2jzn54]

Originally Posted by EMITTR

And if you go back and read what I paid for the TS... I paid what is close to the Forge price.

You are entitled to your opinion and you have stated it. I have stated mine....

i thought you had paid 380 or something like that and had provided some amazon url with something similar. anyway i saw your updates with 307 and yes that is comparable and in some cases cheaper than what you can get the forge for, but again as I said I'd go Forge between the two for my reasons above. I do hope these work out well though. They look solid and > competition generally brings prices down. So when/if mine do fail perhaps my opinion will be priced in incentivizing me to buy them :P


i've stated facts where i said facts and opinions where they are opinions. and i have real data to back up the performance of the stock dvs provided they are in good working condition.. and I have countless videos/logs of them putting down the power and hitting target boost on demand.

[EMITTR]

Originally Posted by Daily Three

i thought you had paid 380 or something like that and had provided some amazon url with something similar. anyway i saw your updates with 307 and yes that is comparable and in some cases cheaper than what you can get the forge for, but again as I said I'd go Forge between the two for my reasons above. I do hope these work out well though. They look solid and > competition generally brings prices down. So when/if mine do fail perhaps my opinion will be priced in incentivizing me to buy them :P


i've stated facts where i said facts and opinions where they are opinions. and i have real data to back up the performance of the stock dvs provided they are in good working condition.. and I have countless videos/logs of them putting down the power and hitting target boost on demand.

Well if you have proof that the plastics do not leak and are good despite their composition.... Share/post!!! I would like to see that. That [/QUOTEwould def discount the OEMs are prone to leaking without a tune and would def be non manufacturer info. Direct user feedback is almost always better and more believable evidenced by some of the comments herein. Do you have manifold data as well?

[2jzn54]

Originally Posted by EMITTR

Well if you have proof that the plastics do not leak and are good despite their composition.... Share/post!!! I would like to see that. That [/QUOTEwould def discount the OEMs are prone to leaking without a tune and would def be non manufacturer info. Direct user feedback is almost always better and more believable evidenced by some of the comments herein. Do you have manifold data as well?

good lord well i'm at work so i have 0 files from home.. you are free to look up dynos on my youtube or see just how well the car runs in whatever other few useful videos are there.

maybe you should search around the forums a bit.. you'll find plenty of guys who are fine with the plastic dvs

as c.pop mentioned terry tested this years ago.. looked for the link since i have nothing on me, but it seems to be dead as it is quite old. hell even someone from forge posted if they are in good working condition there is no reason to upgrade.

[EMITTR]

Well....not surprised at your response. Will go hunt the Forge post down if I can find it. Don't see how their opinion would be any more or less valid that TS. I will call TS today yet again and ask if they have any more data they can share but this is not a Forge or TS thing it is whether TS testing data on the OEM plastics is truthful ....which I have yet to see any data saying it is not. If that exists i would like to see it. Again though.... My ride says improvement just as TS stated. When the car gets dyno'd again i will have more supporting data... Good bad or indifferent.

[2jzn54]

Originally Posted by EMITTR

Well....not surprised at your response. Will go hunt the Forge post down if I can find it. Don't see how their opinion would be any more or less valid that TS. I will call TS today yet again and ask if they have any more data they can share but this is not a Forge or TS thing it is whether TS testing data on the OEM plastics is truthful ....which I have yet to see any data saying it is not. If that exists i would like to see it. Again though.... My ride says improvement just as TS stated. When the car gets dyno'd again i will have more supporting data... Good bad or indifferent.

Never did I say its TS vs Forge thing.. oye vey

What you are missing and has been pointed out to you multiple times is that according to your marketing material the TS provides noticeable gains at stock levels.. If everything is in good working order the DV should provide negligible if no gains. If you have exceeded the limits of the factory DVs or have faulty/broken ones you have exceeded the limits and need something that can handle the excess pressure. Plain and simple. If not then how could I possibly be hitting my boost targets over 2.5x+ factory levels all day. Asking TS does nothing and you do not have source data or truly know what was tested what you have is marketing material.

TS won't give you any of the source information you need. Its their proprietary "R&D" and marketing material. They would be dumb to do so. You would be surprised what company's can get away with. The leeway for false marketing is a very thick grey line and difficult to fight in a court. The incentive to stretch the truth is pretty high in such an industry.

The users that bench test them with no bias will have the info you need. Do I have the stress testing data? Hell no I don't even have an outlet in my garage to hook up a compressor. Terry has done so and they tested well provided they are in good working condition. its unfortunate that I can't find the live link. Perhaps you should be arguing with him. oh wait they ban just about anyone useful here.. right.

When your car gets dyno'd you will not have more supporting data. You would have done it in a different environment and would not have checked how your factory DV was functioning beforehand.. For something truly noticeable like a turbo upgrade or going from stock to a tune yeah sure the significant gains are expected and you can assume with a level of deviation based on the factors of each run that the results are relatively in line. Not at all the case with something so negligible.

Even easier. Show me dynos from a user on just about any platform who has claimed noticeable gains from a DV/BOV upgrade on a relatively stock car without being flamed.. provided the factory DV/BOV was working before.

I'm just going to stop I can see others were smart enough to eventually back off this is a waste of time.

[EMITTR]

Not arguing with conclusive ibfo. The car was dyno'd on OEM plastics. Same dyno on TS with no additions. Same test conditions that TS set up. Results should be similar. End user testing is a yes of which I am one. Marked difference as I have said and some otheres have also said....over and over.

If TS gives me additional info it might make a difference for some and not others.... again....people decide for themselves but I will post it anyway.

So yes... I think it wise as you have your position and I have mine. Nothing more to debate.

[Cloud9blue]

OP definitely drank the marketing kool aid from those companies. Guess you just cant force logic and sound reasoning on someone as clueless as this...

Anyway, I actually bought a set of turbosmart plumback over the holidays, hoping it would at least perform as well as the stock DVs if not better, and maybe with better reliability since I dont really plan on having the thing leaks on me at the track down the line. But unfortunately, these DVs suffer the same problem as the Forge one, as they would flutter at low throttle input and causing boost oscillation. And judging from my logs, these piston style valves actually react much slower than the lighter diaphragm based stock valves; I am pretty sure that's the reason why OEM choose the diaphragm style as oppose to the piston style.

Good thing I bought these through Amazon with pretty hassle free return... IMHO, stay with the stock DVs unless they are failing. And even then, just replace them with another stock DVs, since they are cheap and perform as well as the much more expansive Forge and TS DVs if not better, unless you have one of those inlets that don't have the recirculation ports (in that case, just go with a BOV then).