[dancing__narwhal]

Originally Posted by JohnG7

Reality is our beloved N52 is a small part of any companies business, I doubt it is the big pot-o-gold profit maker we think it is.

It's definitely not a big market for any tuner. Most enthusiasts are buying 335s or even buying new F30 328s since the turbo four-cylinder can be easily and cheaply tuned with boost increases.

I'm with you, the N52 is a gem of an engine and should be admired as the last great NA six from Bavaria. That said, take a look at at the poll on the BPC N52 turbo thread. There's fewer than one hundred people who've said they will buy the kit. Thats enough to justify the R&D but it's clearly not a huge market compared to the tens of thousands of these vehicles still on the roads.

All that said, I'm glad that both AA and BPC are interested in this platform and continuing to invest in it

[rick100]

Originally Posted by dgaultiere

It's definitely not a big market for any tuner. Most enthusiasts are buying 335s or even buying new F30 328s since the turbo four-cylinder can be easily and cheaply tuned with boost increases.

I'm with you, the N52 is a gem of an engine and should be admired as the last great NA six from Bavaria. That said, take a look at at the poll on the BPC N52 turbo thread. There's fewer than one hundred people who've said they will buy the kit. Thats enough to justify the R&D but it's clearly not a huge market compared to the tens of thousands of these vehicles still on the roads.

All that said, I'm glad that both AA and BPC are interested in this platform and continuing to invest in it

its hard to tell how many are going to buy the turbo kit , for all you know BPC does it right and they get great reviews, next thing you know a lot of people with 328s go in the bandwagon and start getting the turbo kit.

Here is the thing , there is not as many people buying the 335 as you may think , that's why the price for them is so low , there is the fear of dealing with maintenance in the 335.

I ll probably go an say there is not that many people willing to trade their 328 for a n54 335 , and that is mainly due to the money they will be losing on a trade and the potential issues they may have with a 335 .

At this point for me , I would rather keep the 328 as a winter beater and buy a m235 or n55 335 , I would even keep the 328 and get a project n54.

That is the reason I can see a lot of people willing to buy a turbo kit for their 328 ( if reviews for BPC kit are great) rather than selling it and getting a 335. Also there is a lot of people that have already invested a lot of money on their 328 with cosmetic mods , suspension mods , even performance mods that are going to loose their money if they decide to trade , it just not worth it .

My main fear with selling the 328 and buying a n54 335 would be that the turbos go on the 335 and I still have to buy turbos on top of the money I will lose on a trade. Also I m full bolts on , the car some cosmetic mods, maintenance is up to date , low km , the car has been opticoated (1000$) , that is money that I m going to loose and that I have to factor in. Im sure there is a lot of people here with the same fear

Lastly there is the whole station wagon 328 crew that does not have any other choice .

Honestly BPC can hit a home run if their turbo kits makes 300- 400 whp and it is reliable and they can keep their price down ( 6-8 k) , they just need to good reviews.

[3002 tii]

Originally Posted by dgaultiere

It's definitely not a big market for any tuner. Most enthusiasts are buying 335s or even buying new F30 328s since the turbo four-cylinder can be easily and cheaply tuned with boost increases.

I'm with you, the N52 is a gem of an engine and should be admired as the last great NA six from Bavaria. That said, take a look at at the poll on the BPC N52 turbo thread. There's fewer than one hundred people who've said they will buy the kit. Thats enough to justify the R&D but it's clearly not a huge market compared to the tens of thousands of these vehicles still on the roads.

All that said, I'm glad that both AA and BPC are interested in this platform and continuing to invest in it

And out of less than hundred interested how many will actually pony up when it's time? Probably a fraction of the responses, assuming they still even have their cars by then.

Originally Posted by rick100

...

I ll probably go an say there is not that many people willing to trade their 328 for a n54 335 , and that is mainly due to the money they will be losing on a trade and the potential issues they may have with a 335 .

At this point for me , I would rather keep the 328 as a winter beater and buy a m235 or n55 335 , I would even keep the 328 and get a project n54....

That describes my exact situation. I've been eyeing the m235i and but the E90 but it's paid off so prefer to keep as my daily/winter.

[dancing__narwhal]

Originally Posted by rick100

Honestly BPC can hit a home run if their turbo kits makes 300- 400 whp and it is reliable and they can keep their price down ( 6-8 k) , they just need to good reviews.

I totally hear you on this. Like I said, I think there is enough of a market to justify the R&D. It's a good project and I think they'll sell quite a few.

However my point still stands that the N52 is not going to be any shop's biggest money maker at this point. Is it a platform worth investing in anyway? I think we all would say so!

[Terraphantm]

Originally Posted by rick100

Here is the thing , there is not as many people buying the 335 as you may think , that's why the price for them is so low , there is the fear of dealing with maintenance in the 335.

I ll probably go an say there is not that many people willing to trade their 328 for a n54 335 , and that is mainly due to the money they will be losing on a trade and the potential issues they may have with a 335 .

I don't know if I buy the premise of an aftermarket turbo system being as reliable as, let alone more reliable than, an OE engineered setup. There's a whole world of difference with regards to what is and isn't acceptable in those realms.

Not to shit on BPC at all - on the contrary I do think the N52 deserves more aftermarket support. But I have never bought a mod expecting more reliability than what the factory can deliver, and I wouldn't start now. If cost + reliability were my goals, I'd probably be looking at purchasing an N54 drivetrain, replacing more common failure items while it's out, swapping that in, and selling the original parts.

[hassmaschine]

Yeah, generally i agree - but come on, the N54 is hardly the pinnacle of BMW reliability - if anything, it may be less reliable than stock, but that may mean is basically on par with a stock N54.

[6ixSpd]

As the miles keep adding up on my 328i, I'm finding myself wanting more and more from the way this motor delivers power. I have an intake and exhaust and both did make the car feel more alive, especially the intake. My issues with the "stock" setup are:

-throttle feels way too soft/disconnected, there's noticeable lag from input to seeing the RPMs move. Typical E90 throttle mapping... It's not very sharp.
-the car pulls nice to about 3500-4000, but that surge flatlines to redline.

Basically, I think it's time to pull the trigger on a BPC tune as based on all I've been reading, it addresses both of those problems. A 3 Stage swap and headers would be the ultimate add-ons, but am I right in expecting a tune to liven this damn N52 up with just an intake and exhaust? I am not asking for major horsepower #s, I don't expect this thing to be wining races. I just want to improve the power delivery and feel of the accelerator.

[Eagle1oh7]

Originally Posted by rick100

its hard to tell how many are going to buy the turbo kit , for all you know BPC does it right and they get great reviews, next thing you know a lot of people with 328s go in the bandwagon and start getting the turbo kit.

Here is the thing , there is not as many people buying the 335 as you may think , that's why the price for them is so low , there is the fear of dealing with maintenance in the 335.

I ll probably go an say there is not that many people willing to trade their 328 for a n54 335 , and that is mainly due to the money they will be losing on a trade and the potential issues they may have with a 335 .

At this point for me , I would rather keep the 328 as a winter beater and buy a m235 or n55 335 , I would even keep the 328 and get a project n54.

That is the reason I can see a lot of people willing to buy a turbo kit for their 328 ( if reviews for BPC kit are great) rather than selling it and getting a 335. Also there is a lot of people that have already invested a lot of money on their 328 with cosmetic mods , suspension mods , even performance mods that are going to loose their money if they decide to trade , it just not worth it .

My main fear with selling the 328 and buying a n54 335 would be that the turbos go on the 335 and I still have to buy turbos on top of the money I will lose on a trade. Also I m full bolts on , the car some cosmetic mods, maintenance is up to date , low km , the car has been opticoated (1000$) , that is money that I m going to loose and that I have to factor in. Im sure there is a lot of people here with the same fear

Lastly there is the whole station wagon 328 crew that does not have any other choice .

Honestly BPC can hit a home run if their turbo kits makes 300- 400 whp and it is reliable and they can keep their price down ( 6-8 k) , they just need to good reviews.

That's why I will never trade in/sell my 328i.

[rick100]

Originally Posted by 6ixSpd

As the miles keep adding up on my 328i, I'm finding myself wanting more and more from the way this motor delivers power. I have an intake and exhaust and both did make the car feel more alive, especially the intake. My issues with the "stock" setup are:

-throttle feels way too soft/disconnected, there's noticeable lag from input to seeing the RPMs move. Typical E90 throttle mapping... It's not very sharp.
-the car pulls nice to about 3500-4000, but that surge flatlines to redline.

Basically, I think it's time to pull the trigger on a BPC tune as based on all I've been reading, it addresses both of those problems. A 3 Stage swap and headers would be the ultimate add-ons, but am I right in expecting a tune to liven this damn N52 up with just an intake and exhaust? I am not asking for major horsepower #s, I don't expect this thing to be wining races. I just want to improve the power delivery and feel of the accelerator.

tune alone would be ok , but to really wake up this car you need at least a 3 stage intake or headers OR both plus a tune would be doing it right.

Tune alone would probably gives you better throttle response and minor increase in power

I ll say do it right from the beggining , if you are worry about emissions just do 3 stage intake. A used intake is like 250-400 bucks , you can install it yourself

[boro92]

Originally Posted by 6ixSpd

As the miles keep adding up on my 328i, I'm finding myself wanting more and more from the way this motor delivers power. I have an intake and exhaust and both did make the car feel more alive, especially the intake. My issues with the "stock" setup are:

-throttle feels way too soft/disconnected, there's noticeable lag from input to seeing the RPMs move. Typical E90 throttle mapping... It's not very sharp.
-the car pulls nice to about 3500-4000, but that surge flatlines to redline.

Basically, I think it's time to pull the trigger on a BPC tune as based on all I've been reading, it addresses both of those problems. A 3 Stage swap and headers would be the ultimate add-ons, but am I right in expecting a tune to liven this damn N52 up with just an intake and exhaust? I am not asking for major horsepower #s, I don't expect this thing to be wining races. I just want to improve the power delivery and feel of the accelerator.

BPC tune fixes that throttle mapping.
It changes the character of the power delivery, and the motor is much more eager - it responds more readily to small changes to the throttle pedal...ultimately making it more responsive to the right foot--I too sought the very same thing with a tune--which was why i disliked the AA tune so much. It did nothing in that regard.

Not to mention, even without the 3 stage IM, you will get large *top end* gains, as the single stage IM has the same power on the upper rpm band (it is the same as all disa valves open), but lacks the mid range and low end. They BPC tune yields a double digit gain even on the original IM. Worth the #. I know you're local...if you ever wanted to drive one to compare, we can make something happen.

[W37V]

Originally Posted by anjuna

THIS IS EXACTLY MY POINT.

How would you feel if you had a bunch of dyno time, a bunch of tune money invested, and a bunch of people looking at your two little dyno overlays that have very very minor differences??

You'd tell people oh but it feels different! SO different that I'm GLAD I paid twice as much as any reasonable person should have

The point I am trying to make is that you're arguing about differences that a simple change in intake air temperature can make.

If anyone seems to be butt hurt on this, it's you - for whatever reason. My post was as objective as possible. No claims were made that weren't supported by evidence. How you got to above statement is just mind boggling. But then it doesn't surprise me much.

I only partially paid for it. I noted that in various spots, but that just shows your reading comprehension. Hell, I spend more on a dinner before, than how much I paid for it. If anything I'm more biased towards AA as I purchased two of their tunes, headers and their simon tool.

Even an idiot can see the TQ difference below 4K and that the power gets carried longer at the top end. Below 4K car feels stronger and that is all thanks to BPC tune.

Now, if you want to claim something else on this subject, please support your statements with facts and evidence (alt-facts are not facts, they are lies).

Didn't you say you are leaving this forum? So why are you back?

[Taskmaster]

Originally Posted by W37V

If anyone seems to be butt hurt on this, it's you - for whatever reason. My post was as objective as possible. No claims were made that weren't supported by evidence. How you got to above statement is just mind boggling. But then it doesn't surprise me much.

I only partially paid for it. I noted that in various spots, but that just shows your reading comprehension. Hell, I spend more on a dinner before, than how much I paid for it. If anything I'm more biased towards AA as I purchased two of their tunes, headers and their simon tool.

Even an idiot can see the TQ difference below 4K and that the power gets carried longer at the top end. Below 4K car feels stronger and that is all thanks to BPC tune.

Now, if you want to claim something else on this subject, please support your statements with facts and evidence (alt-facts are not facts, they are lies).

Didn't you say you are leaving this forum? So why are you back?

Well now, this is escalating.

[hassmaschine]

The point is, AA was advertising one thing (dyno tune) and selling something else (canned tune).

The canned tune does not:
- increase valve lift on the 328i/325i
- change anything with the DISA settings (regardless if you swapped a 3Si or not)
- change anything in the fuel curve (stock 14.7:1 curve on 325i/328i)
- change anything in the throttle mapping
- the "header" tune is just an error code delete for post-cat sensors.

It does increase ignition timing (a fixed value across the board) and it does alter the knock sensitivity maps (common pracitice). There are some VANOS tweaks too. This is the main thing that the "canned" AA tune was giving you. Now, as to why some people got this, and some people got the "better" tune, I have no idea - but until I pointed it out, some people were being bilked.

If you think none of the above matters, then just stick to the stock tune because that's pretty close to what you end up with anyway. If you are OK with getting something less than what you paid for, it's no skin off my nose.

What really makes me laugh is the claims of "increased throttle response" from a tune. Nobody is touching anything regards to throttle sensitivity - goes to show you how accurate the typical "ass dyno" is. But some guy posts back to back dynos and people shit themselves....

[W37V]

Originally Posted by hassmaschine

What really makes me laugh is the claims of "increased throttle response" from a tune. Nobody is touching anything regards to throttle sensitivity - goes to show you how accurate the typical "ass dyno" is. But some guy posts back to back dynos and people shit themselves....

I think is is mainly due to adaptations reset.

[anjuna]

Originally Posted by W37V

If anyone seems to be butt hurt on this, it's you - for whatever reason. My post was as objective as possible. No claims were made that weren't supported by evidence. How you got to above statement is just mind boggling. But then it doesn't surprise me much.

I only partially paid for it. I noted that in various spots, but that just shows your reading comprehension. Hell, I spend more on a dinner before, than how much I paid for it. If anything I'm more biased towards AA as I purchased two of their tunes, headers and their simon tool.

Even an idiot can see the TQ difference below 4K and that the power gets carried longer at the top end. Below 4K car feels stronger and that is all thanks to BPC tune.

Now, if you want to claim something else on this subject, please support your statements with facts and evidence (alt-facts are not facts, they are lies).

Didn't you say you are leaving this forum? So why are you back?

Oh man.... Alt facts. someone's sad killary lost

I never said I was leaving a forum, though I appreciate the fact you decided to keep up with my comments. I shat on the turbo N52 idea and said I'd leave that conversation alone, but like a bunch of unattended children with down syndrome, someone had to get things back in line.

I think you don't understand what a dyno graph means for every day driving.

Dyno - 100% throttle, same gear, all the way through. It's a great way to get an idea of the output of an engine across a rpm range with a fixed load.

WITH A FIXED LOAD.

I don't care how much you claim that 15ft-lb is magical, you're NOT going to feel that when the car is not under WOT.

Argue with me about it more. I don't care and you look stupid.

Talk to me about programmed throttle position, VANOS operation, DISA operation, ignition advance, and all of that and then we can have a civilized conversation, but as hass pointed out, canned tunes are canned. I severely doubt anyone spent enough time playing with all of these different parameters enough to really make a difference.

My guess is that BMW used VANOS for a very emissions friendly cruise and moderate-throttle output on these engines. My guess would be that reducing the internal EGR with valve overlap/operation and increasing fresh air in the cylinder would greatly improve off-cruise operation at the sacrifice of economy. These are things you CANNOT SEE with a plain old dyno graph at WOT.

Argue with me about it. I don't care and you look stupid.

So your car may feelzzz like it's soooooo much better than X tune below 4k when driving around, but that has NO correlation with the dyno graph published.

You may get angry because I am disagreeing (read "right"), but maybe when you pull your head out of your ass and realize that what you're saying doesn't make any sense, you'll see the light of day.

[W37V]

Originally Posted by anjuna

I don't care how much you claim that 15ft-lb is magical, you're NOT going to feel that when the car is not under WOT.

This is literally THE DUMBEST thing I read on the internet today. The dumbest! Fuck, it might be the dumbest thing this week. You win!

[hassmaschine]

Originally Posted by anjuna

Talk to me about programmed throttle position, VANOS operation, DISA operation, ignition advance, and all of that and then we can have a civilized conversation, but as hass pointed out, canned tunes are canned. I severely doubt anyone spent enough time playing with all of these different parameters enough to really make a difference.

My guess is that BMW used VANOS for a very emissions friendly cruise and moderate-throttle output on these engines. My guess would be that reducing the internal EGR with valve overlap/operation and increasing fresh air in the cylinder would greatly improve off-cruise operation at the sacrifice of economy. These are things you CANNOT SEE with a plain old dyno graph at WOT.
.

Actually, that wasn't my point at all, you completely missed the mark. The "canned" AA tune didn't give you what it claimed to (what they showed in the "dyno" tunes). The OTS BPC tune does give you that. It's also evident in the graphs, everywhere under the curve - peak power will never be that different with just a tune because that's mostly a limitation of the physical engine characteristics.

The true difference between a custom dyno tune on these cars and a good "shelf tune" would be extremely minimal. Everything is model and target based - you're telling the computer what you want, and the DME will respond by attempting to reach those targets (with safety margins of course). If you just add 10 degrees to ignition or whatever and figure you're going to see that on the other end you would be mistaken.

You can say you don't think anyone knows what they are doing / haven't figured out the parameters but I haven't seen any contributions from you so I'm not sure how you can make that statement. The fact is pretty much all of it has been mapped out and people do know which parameters make a difference (some moreso than others).

Also, yes, you will feel a torque difference at part throttle - unless you think a tune only changes things at WOT? That would be a pretty poor tune, and isn't the case even with AA. They are all modifying part throttle vanos and ignition.

[rick100]

Axiom get a life, go out, get a job, get laid or something ... its sad the amount of time u spend here arguing the same point ...

There is more to life than data logging and posting dyno charts

[anjuna]

Originally Posted by TheAxiom

a bunch of annoying shit

You obviously have no idea who you're talking about.

https://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2755603
https://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2743792
https://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2687550
https://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2765512

as kane said, bow in the presence of greatness.

i understand more about air flow through an engine, valve dynamics, tuning philosophy, and application of engine control knowledge than you do about all of the things in your life summed up.

To Hass, you're right - I haven't provided anything other making my first action on this forum a message to you offering a helping hand to tuning the N52. Excuse me that my background isn't strong in code, i'm still learning about the tools for this platform, and i'm generally only helpful when most of the parameters are defined.

I would be willing to bet a round of beers and a dyno day that, given access to ignition/valve/throttle/DISA/etc parameters, i will make power over just about anything else out there.

I'm not an internet troll or someone who just gets on to shit post about people, but you guys somehow believe that owning the tune, having the electronic throttle "trick" you, and dyno graphs (that are SO CLOSE!) somehow make you right. You have the right idea, just poor execution.

[Taskmaster]

Originally Posted by anjuna

Irrelevant shit that is literally talking about cam timing and ignition timing and have nothing to do with the MSV70/80

I'll put money down that you don't, try me guy. From where I'm sitting here, You're a guy who talking out of his ass and literally STILL has nothing to show for it - you are actually arguing that tunes don't change the partial load maps and that these difference can't be felt, even if this is quantifiable information. This isn't Nasioc, come find me when you can provide something of value.


Edit: Taking an off the shelf map and modifying the exhaust cam timing, and boost targets (with no dyno, no time slips - nada) is tuning now? Ok.

[anjuna]

Originally Posted by TheAxiom

I'll put money down that you don't, try me guy. From where I'm sitting here, You're a guy who talking out of his ass and literally STILL has nothing to show for it - you are actually arguing that tunes don't change the partial load maps and that these difference can't be felt, even if this is quantifiable information. This isn't Nasioc, come find me when you can provide something of value.


Edit: Taking an off the shelf map and modifying the exhaust cam timing, and boost targets (with no dyno, no time slips - nada) is tuning now? Ok.

I never said that partial throttle changes can't be felt. I made the point that they cannot be quantified using a WOT dyno graph. Someone once told me "not so good at reading are we?"

Either way, you're entitled to your own opinion. it's not really worth my time arguing with a "know it all" jerk off on the intnernet. i have real things to do other than buy tunes, dyno my 2whp differences, and pretend like i have some understanding of what works and what doesn't.

oh and please. do you think AA or BPC started from scratch? No, they modified the original maps. I'd be happy to share my dropbox with you on the 147 different revisions of my old tune. Maybe then you'll understand, but even then i doubt so. don't get in a relationship - you seem the type to hurt your significant other when they disagree with you.

glwl

[Taskmaster]

Originally Posted by anjuna

I never said that partial throttle changes can't be felt. I made the point that they cannot be quantified using a WOT dyno graph. Someone once told me "not so good at reading are we?"

Originally Posted by anjuna

I don't care how much you claim that 15ft-lb is magical, you're NOT going to feel that when the car is not under WOT.

Originally Posted by anjuna

Either way, you're entitled to your own opinion. it's not really worth my time arguing with a "know it all" jerk off on the intnernet. i have real things to do other than buy tunes, dyno my 2whp differences, and pretend like i have some understanding of what works and what doesn't.

See above.

Originally Posted by anjuna

oh and please. do you think AA or BPC started from scratch? No, they modified the original maps. I'd be happy to share my dropbox with you on the 147 different revisions of my old tune. Maybe then you'll understand, but even then i doubt so. don't get in a relationship - you seem the type to hurt your significant other when they disagree with you.

glwl

BPC and AA didn't steal someone' tune, modify it and call their own.