[BMWCCA1]

Originally Posted by Blue87

This is my first BMW and I'm fairly annoyed that a 100k X5 can't be had with soft-close doors, heated cooled cup holder or cooling box, button operated rear seats, button controlled child door locks, dual visors for each side, better interior fit/finish etc. The Genesis lineup will for sure be considered next time and hopefully manufacturers will have stepped their game up by then, although BMW seems to be trending towards continued decontenting (okay, not a real word) of its models.

So, how does it drive?

I realize that's not that important these days. The Ultimate Streaming Machine?

[Tejas1836]

Originally Posted by F32Fleet

The problem for Hyundai is that their ICE are hot garbage, but if you only lease or go BEV it becomes moot and someone else's problem.

Add KIA to that

[bmw1racer]

Originally Posted by StradaRedlands

THIS ALL DAY^^^^^

I've posted here before how much I love the E30 dash and controls. Simply can't be improved upon! Two dials, three sliders, and two buttons covered all your HVAC needs.

Don't forget those skinny A-pillars... swoon! And being able to look over your shoulder to see out the rear quarter... no need for a camera on an E30! And no oil leaks!!!! Oh how I miss those cars.



Now get off my lawn!!!

Ahh, what a great interior. I remember the E30s I've had over the years: Driver-oriented dash and simple, purposeful controls (and window controls in the console ). And the glove box was cavernous.

Those were the days...

[StradaRedlands]

Originally Posted by bmw1racer

Ahh, what a great interior. I remember the E30s I've had over the years: Driver-oriented dash and simple, purposeful controls (and window controls in the console ). And the glove box was cavernous.

Those were the days...

I miss our E30s so much... Lots of cars since, but none quite as meaningful.

[Tacoma]

Originally Posted by GetBent

I've owned 10 BMW's over the years (1996 e36 328i, 2001 e39 530i, 1999 e46 328i, 2004 e46 M3, 2006 e90 330i, 2000 e39 M5, 2008 e60 M5 v10, 2014 X5d, 2001 e39 M5 Dinan S2, 2020 f87 M2C). While I am only 1 month into ownership of the M2C, the BMW's I've owned that have captured "The Utlimate Driving Machine" brand best for me are:

1. 1996 e36 328i - held the road like it was on rails!
2. Both e39 M5's - especially the Dinan S2 Red Rocket
3. 2004 e46 M3 - Raw & Raspy road course machine
4. 2008 e60 M5 - v10 top end terror
5. 2020 f87 M2 - turbos strike like White Lightning!

I sure hope that BMW stays true to the brand in the future and continues to make more of these type of cars.

You can stop hoping because that ship has long sailed.

Looking at recent trend, each generation of BMW has become softer isolating you more from the road. Compared to other brands, BMW is moving further away from Porsche and closer to Lexus in terms of driving dynamics.

Looking at recent BMW marketing, they come out with ads mocking their fan base of older generation of BMW enthusiasts as being dinosaurs and citing the benefits of their new direction where cars are more like appliances of consumer electronics.

Stick a fork in it, BMW is done with you (and me).

[ASAP]

Discounting the EVs for a second which is indeed a true direction change for the industry as a whole... what vehicles does BMW make right now that are subpar to their older cars?

If you mean a little more insulated and heavy... well that's true across the board for all manufacturers.

If you mean lacking driving dynamics, that's not true for the 3, 4, 5, x3, x5, m3, m5... they are by far the most dynamic cars in their class... 7 series and up, that's an irrelevant point.

[ASAP]

Originally Posted by tracer bullet

I still think you're missing what's being lamented here. I'll put it another way.

80's, 90's, 00's, etc: 3 Series were kick ass cars compared to Accords and Camries. People who actually liked driving cars preferred them because they were communicative and engaging.

Today: 3 Series is interchangeable with Accord and Camry. Drive your toaster to work. Yawn.

No one is in love with the older cars, specifically. It's the engagement, "driver's car" thing that's been lost. BMW is not trying any more. If you like their current cars now, you'd LOVE what the current cars could be like if they hadn't quit.

You really think an M340i is interchangaeble with an Accord or Camry?

A 382 HP RWD car with the finest automatic on earth and solid weight distribution is interchangable with a fwd 4 banger and a CVT lol? Some people r crazy here... just bcuz it no longer weighs 3300 lbs due to safety regulations and no longer has a hydraulic steering system that tons of people lamented... its suddenly an accord lol. I owned a 2009 135i and that car was a piece of garbage compared to the current M340i and it has ALL of the qualities you search for.

[Rafichicago]

It’s said to see direction this thread is going. Seems like whatever was before it’s worse than new because of old technology. Seems like whatever car manufacturer tells its customers what’s good for them it’s what should be agreed upon. Because new cars are newer, more powerful, filled with technological gimmicks they’re automatically better than the previous ones, because they’re newer. Meanwhile E46 M3 in tip top condition just to name one of examples with manual fetch 70-$100K. Those prices happen because those cars do not have direct replacement. Same for Honda S2000. No replacement for them. New cars are not for everyone. Me included. I don’t appreciate their newest styling. Bmw went from marketing it’s cars as ultimate driving machines to joy of driving to whatever their latest slogan is. Manufactures do what’s best for shareholders. Their main goal is to make money. They need to make more. In order to do that it’s either through raising prices or sell more units. Just because they sell more doesn’t mean better product. It’s just more appealing to the masses. Exactly the reason why enthusiasts are unhappy with the end product. My F90 is fine car. Does everything great. It hides weight pretty good and accelerates fantastically. Is it very good? Sure is. Would it be better if it was 400lbs lighter ? Absolutely. There’s always room for improvement.

[tracer bullet]

Originally Posted by ASAP

You really think an M340i is interchangaeble with an Accord or Camry?

You missed where I referred specifically to 330i loaners I've had. They are about as inspiring as my toaster. And where I said I've also driven the others and they were similarly uninspiring. I didn't say the other cars were better, just that they were comparable toasters. M340i would be expected to be better of course, we agree there.

Either way the gist remains - they aren't the driver's cars they used to be. Not their bread & butter models anyhow.

[ASAP]

Originally Posted by tracer bullet

You missed where I referred specifically to 330i loaners I've had. They are about as inspiring as my toaster. And where I said I've also driven the others and they were similarly uninspiring. I didn't say the other cars were better, just that they were comparable toasters. M340i would be expected to be better of course, we agree there.

Either way the gist remains - they aren't the driver's cars they used to be. Not their bread & butter models anyhow.

If you mean a base base 330i, then perhaps... but no enthusiast or anyone interested in driving will choose that... that's made to be a lease car.

If you add the right wheel / tire option and add the M Sport pack to the 330i... again it won't be comparable to Accord... it will be just like an m340i with just less power.

If we are talking base base non sport pack 330i, 530i etc... then yea, maybe they are boring but they were never meant for people interested in driving... technically that applies even to porsche with the base macan, cayenne etc... however i think even the base X3 is extremely dynamic for an SUV.

[///d]

in my opinion I think performance enthusiasts are a dying breed. Sure, theres younger generations that are still into automobile performance, but from what I've seen it's become far and few between. The increase in fuel prices, increase in restrictions and laws, environmental awareness, and rise in prices for anything marketed as sport performance has killed the market.

I also think the advancement in tech has killed the feel of a performance vehicle. I think most of us grew up falling in love with that mechanical feeling of a sports car, the excitement of feeling that power, but todays tech masks everything I grew up loving. Sure, the data shows that tech makes a car perform better, but the excitement is gone. Without excitement it just becomes another mode of transportation.

[RPM33]

Originally Posted by ///d

in my opinion I think performance enthusiasts are a dying breed. Sure, theres younger generations that are still into automobile performance, but from what I've seen it's become far and few between. The increase in fuel prices, increase in restrictions and laws, environmental awareness, and rise in prices for anything marketed as sport performance has killed the market.

I also think the advancement in tech has killed the feel of a performance vehicle. I think most of us grew up falling in love with that mechanical feeling of a sports car, the excitement of feeling that power, but todays tech masks everything I grew up loving. Sure, the data shows that tech makes a car perform better, but the excitement is gone. Without excitement it just becomes another mode of transportation.

I agree with this. Less people interested in sports cars especially with the push to EVs.

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by tracer bullet

Either way the gist remains - they aren't the driver's cars they used to be. Not their bread & butter models anyhow.

This has been the case from as far back as I remember. All about specification.

Whether we talk about the E30 or say an E90, the base models have always been different to drive, than a well optioned model.

We had four E30 examples in my company at the same time. A 318i, two different spec' 320i's and a 323i. So different to drive, the 323i was the driver's car by a mile.

Through the years, I've known guys test drive a BMW and come away thinking "what's all the hype about?" Question them to what they tried and it is usually a case of not the best specification.

[F32Fleet]

Originally Posted by ASAP

Discounting the EVs for a second which is indeed a true direction change for the industry as a whole... what vehicles does BMW make right now that are subpar to their older cars?

If you mean a little more insulated and heavy... well that's true across the board for all manufacturers.

If you mean lacking driving dynamics, that's not true for the 3, 4, 5, x3, x5, m3, m5... they are by far the most dynamic cars in their class... 7 series and up, that's an irrelevant point.

Are they as dynamic as their predicessors?

[ASAP]

Originally Posted by F32Fleet

Are they as dynamic as their predicessors?

Yes except for size and weight which we have no control over due to safety regulations and changing market demands... this is true for all manufacturers.

The only other place may be EPS but again thats a very split opinion... i thought the older hydraulic racks brought in a massive amount of feel to the steering wheel where your hands would feel rigid after driving too long... and eps systems just continue to get better... my m2c was perfect in that regard.

Manual trannys... everyone said goodbye to that... the market for it today is tiny at best... and comparing to a time when the DCT / ZF8s didn't exist is absurd.

[F32Fleet]

Originally Posted by ASAP

Yes except for size and weight which we have no control over due to safety regulations and changing market demands... this is true for all manufacturers.

The only other place may be EPS but again thats a very split opinion... i thought the older hydraulic racks brought in a massive amount of feel to the steering wheel where your hands would feel rigid after driving too long... and eps systems just continue to get better... my m2c was perfect in that regard.

Manual trannys... everyone said goodbye to that... the market for it today is tiny at best... and comparing to a time when the DCT / ZF8s didn't exist is absurd.

Okay, so the answer is no they're not.

As a multi-decade owner of 3-series cars the transition is undeniable regardless of the reasons behind it. It is what it is.

The 3-series of today and perhaps even the F3x has more in common with an older 5-series.

As for steering you're probably too young to know this but the E46 was released with extremely light steering. It was a large departure from the E36 and because so many owners complained BMW quickly developed a retrofit for models which had already been sold. BMW of course fixed it at the factory as well.

[ASAP]

Originally Posted by F32Fleet

Okay, so the answer is no they're not.

As a multi-decade owner of 3-series cars the transition is undeniable regardless of the reasons behind it. It is what it is.

The 3-series of today and perhaps even the F3x has more in common with an older 5-series.

As for steering you're probably too young to know this but the E46 was released with extremely light steering. It was a large departure from the E36 and because so many owners complained BMW quickly developed a retrofit for models which had already been sold. BMW of course fixed it at the factory as well.

I almost feel as if you didn't read my comment...

Most of these things are market directed and / or items BMW has no control over. Is your issue with BMW or the market in general? BMW still makes the most enthusiast oriented cars in its class.

You are probably looking for a 3 series the size of the current 2 series? hint, it exists... its an M235i gran coupe... ah, you want a car that size to be true RWD? So you want it to be even smaller inside due to RWD packaging and even more expensive than the M235i? The price point you end up would be an m340i... and the 10 people that would buy this theoretical car would severly complain the moment it's discontinued after 1 year due to no sales.

As far as EPS - again, completely market directed... guess what...? even Porsche does that... and without their Macan / Cayenne / Panamera... none of the 911s would exist today.

[tracer bullet]

Originally Posted by ASAP

Most of these things are market directed and / or items BMW has no control over.

Agree and disagree.

Market directed? If I take it to mean the same as you - absolutely. And it's what some are sad about. We just summarized the entire thread here.

No control over? Disagree. I know that a 2 series and a GR86 are different cars, but the 2 is ballpark 1,000 pounds heavier than the 86. I'm not stuck on these cars it's just an example that BMW is being lazy. And as for EPS, for years people wondered why BMW couldn't make it communicate as did say a Porsche, why they couldn't figure it out. It turns out they didn't want to. It wasn't something they couldn't control, it was a choice. See market directed above.

I think you get what some people are sad about, and the gist that BMW doesn't target them any more. You're cool with that, or believe it's unavoidable or that everyone does it, and so folks should just shut up. And hey, that's fine! But... maybe don't put much effort into telling people it's BS and all in their heads. That's what it feels like you are trying to convey anyhow.

[ASAP]

Originally Posted by tracer bullet

Agree and disagree.

Market directed? If I take it to mean the same as you - absolutely. And it's what some are sad about. We just summarized the entire thread here.

No control over? Disagree. I know that a 2 series and a GR86 are different cars, but the 2 is ballpark 1,000 pounds heavier than the 86. I'm not stuck on these cars it's just an example that BMW is being lazy. And as for EPS, for years people wondered why BMW couldn't make it communicate as did say a Porsche, why they couldn't figure it out. It turns out they didn't want to. It wasn't something they couldn't control, it was a choice. See market directed above.

I think you get what some people are sad about, and the gist that BMW doesn't target them any more. You're cool with that, or believe it's unavoidable or that everyone does it, and so folks should just shut up. And hey, that's fine! But... maybe don't put much effort into telling people it's BS and all in their heads. That's what it feels like you are trying to convey anyhow.

Some people are perhaps a bit delusional about today's realities...

You just gave an awesome example... a GR86 vs a 2 series... I wonder why those would be different? Perhaps something to do with the fact that the 2 series is supposed to be a premium feeling car that is supposed to serve as base for a 460 HP engine in the M2 not a 184 LB FT 4 banger.

Then you talk about effort and BMW being lazy... I actually love this because it returns to your first example... now why would one of the largest automakers in the world (Toyota) turn to lazy BMW to build their halo sports car? As in use their engine, tranny and even interior? Now we're talking lazy.

[LivingInSalt]

Originally Posted by Tacoma

Disagree. Ultimate Driving Machine was a tag line used by BMW and the key is the first 2 words ULTIMATE DRIVING which by definition means it's about the way the car drives. These are common words whose meaning not even Merriam-Webster dictionary can change. Indeed, BMW never changed it. They went with another slogan in their recent advertisements: "Sheer Driving Pleasure." This is the tag line they're going with these days.

The main reason why the "Ultimate Driving Machine" slogan was so successful was because BMW backed it up. Now that they no longer do so, it's no longer their tag line. It's not a change in definition.

People have been complianing about BMW and mockingly calling the cars the "Ultimate Compromise Machines" since the E46. over 20 years ago.

[TheMaxXHD]

This thread can keep going, it doesn't really change the conclusions.

Folks, just enjoy your cars, old and new alike.

The only place these battles about steering and the like are being fought is enthusiast forums. Market trends and sales figures confirm that. For better or for worse, to put it bluntly, BMW is telling you to get on board with their new ways or step aside and don't buy the vehicles.

That is what this thread was about right? What the market is saying? Well that is what the market is saying. The market is saying, kinda, what enthusiasts want don't matter anymore. The mass market matters.

Surprising it took this long to occur. Likely some finance involved in it as well like the ultra low interest rates from 2008 until a few short months ago that made the mass market able to more easily punch above into the more luxury class like Audi, MB, and BMW.

There are many factors. From financial market conditions, to trends, to safety, to countless of other reasons.

[Patton250]

Originally Posted by TheMaxXHD

This thread can keep going, it doesn't really change the conclusions.

Folks, just enjoy your cars, old and new alike.

The only place these battles about steering and the like are being fought is enthusiast forums. Market trends and sales figures confirm that. For better or for worse, to put it bluntly, BMW is telling you to get on board with their new ways or step aside and don't buy the vehicles.

That is what this thread was about right? What the market is saying? Well that is what the market is saying. The market is saying, kinda, what enthusiasts want don't matter anymore. The mass market matters.

Surprising it took this long to occur. Likely some finance involved in it as well like the ultra low interest rates from 2008 until a few short months ago that made the mass market able to more easily punch above into the more luxury class like Audi, MB, and BMW.

There are many factors. From financial market conditions, to trends, to safety, to countless of other reasons.

I agree with you. However, it’s not anywhere near as bad as some so-called enthusiasts make it out to be. Most of this makes me laugh. All of this crying over a freaking grille. One freaking grille!!!!!