[toxicnerve]

Originally Posted by RagingKileak

I don't really know WTF is going on in this thread anymore...

But I do wish my Traction Control had kicked in to stop the car going into a crazy and nonsensical fishtail this morning (blatant exageration) as I shit my pants!

To be fair, only the training I had with the Police stopped me from flying off the road!!!(Again an exageration.)

Matt

You must really have been "pressing on" Matt

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by Dave_3

Ironically, I often get tailgated by stern, cross-looking Mums driving people carriers in the 15 mph zone around my house - which includes a primary school.

At times even 15mph is too high when the kids pile out all over the place.

D.

Strange you should mention this, it was one example I thought of posting. I'm finding young women and kiddy transport are some of the worst these days for bad driving, I've had loads of mums virtually sitting in my boot as I go through restricted zones. They are obviously late for school and put their own and other children at risk. Seems the brain cells do not connect. If I knocked their child down, I'd be a mad BMW driver, even if the child jumped out in front of me without any warning. If it were one of them, they would be a poor mum who couldn't understand how it happened.

HighlandPete

[themetz]

i think it could be time for a group hug

[RagingKileak]

Well seeing as we are on this subject.

I used to work in Harrogate and commute from Bradford.

I took the scenic route every day through Yeadon, Pool Bank etc which are all towns many of you won't know, but those who do will know just what I mean about this.

At the time I drove a Honda Civic VTi with a 160bhp engine that I adored and which was pretty rapid for a 20 year old driver.

Every day, I would scream the knackers off it round the country lanes, loving the quiet of a Saturday morning or Sunday night (as I worked shifts) etc and really having chance to push it a bit.

In the context of this conversation the car had no TCS and one could suggest (and I would admit) that this was cockish driving and although as safe as I could be, being alone on nearly empty roads, you can of course never account for every rogue cyclist or unnoticed vehicle pulling out etc.

Regardless of what I DID do, what I did NOT do was speed through Pool, Otley etc. One of my shifts was a 16:00 finish and I used to reach a little town called Huby at about 16:04 (I timed the run between H'Gate and Pool Bank both ways many times) where I would always, without fail, slow down for the local school, old folk, crossings and shops etc. I have a tradition of slowing down for villages and always have - I drive at 30 or 40 or whatever the limit is (or under) without fail.

Two things about these memories form the crux of this... The first is on my 16:00 finish it would be amazing how much traffic (from Huby and Harrogate) I could amass behind me as I slowed down to 30 mph for the under one mile strip which runs through the village. Nearly every day without fail the cars would line up behind me and I could see the anger on their faces, even as we passed the fucking shool where there kids go etc...

Coming out of Huby is a big hill with a long straight - oh how I used to love dialling up the 7000+ redline in that car as I screamed away from the wankers behind who would happily have sped through the village at 40 or 50.

The other thing I remember about that run is that on my 23:00 finish... I would get stuck behind the same blue Citroen Saxo every fucking day. This guy used to time his run so that he was JUST on the other side of all the big proper roads but still with enough gap for me to overtake him before Huby.

So every day, he would potter along the wide, fast A (National Speed Limit) roads at 40 mph and every day, I would overtake him somewhere safe, open and clear. Every day he would then speed up, apply his high beam headlights and for the 50 yards his pathetic French box could keep up, flash away like a little dick.

About 2 miles later, I would reach Huby and he would proceed to catch me up, still doing 40 through the village with no regard for the written (or suggested) rules of the road in either fast or built up areas. Again he would usually flash his lights to spur me on and as you would expect, at the NSL sign I would floor it and be free of him until the following evening.

I am not sure who is the bigger wanker, me for entertaining all these people, or them for being such inconsiderate bellends. Not even sure I have a point, but they are personal experiences that seem relevant... I may drive like a cock I suppose, but sometimes I am also the LEAST likely to cause an accident whereas mummy/old man/blind old dear/innocent student girl are actually the fucking idiots.

I don't pretend to be the best driver, but I do have a lot of common sense and I don't mind applying it.

Matt

[zltm089]

And the BMW Cock Award of the year goes to........Matt!!!!....who has been with us since Jan 2009.

LOL...sori just messing about...

I agree with some of the stuff u said ...
"I may drive like a cock I suppose, but sometimes I am also the LEAST likely to cause an accident whereas mummy/old man/blind old dear/innocent student girl are actually the fucking idiots"

[doughboy]

Yep, I regularly visit the folks in Staffordshire and the roads round there are mainly good well sighted A roads with national limits, punctuated by 30mph villages.

Catching up with a car doing say 40/50 on the 60 limit, you can easily overtake in good weather and move on (often with a fist wave from the plodder), only for them to catch you up when you slow to 30 and they want to carry on at 45.

If you don't overtake them they just steam into the 30 limit at 45 and only brake when the bends dictate they must.

But where do the police operate speed traps? or sight cameras? - that's right in the national limit zones, never catching the 45mph plodder who just carries on.....at 45 everywhere.

[HighlandPete]

Seems this thread has gone way off topic... but has it?

I think it really explains why the BMW material quoted at the start of this thread, by the OP, has to be written and it is irresponsible for (caveat: most) drivers to switch to DTC, or grossly sin, by switching off DSC.

HighlandPete

[- Paul -]

WTH is this all about.

Leave it all on unless you are ok controlling upwards of 330bhp through 2 patches of rubber - Job done.

[RockIt]

Originally Posted by RagingKileak

Well seeing as we are on this subject.

I took the scenic route every day through Yeadon, Pool Bank etc which are all towns many of you won't know, but those who do will know just what I mean about this.

Matt

Certainly do! I apply exactly the same rule through Huby and the other villages and inevitably end up with a stream of traffic building up behind...that I then enjoy leaving in the wake of my petrol fumes as we enter the derestricted zone again.

[NFS]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

Seems this thread has gone way off topic... but has it?

I think it really explains why the BMW material quoted at the start of this thread, by the OP, has to be written and it is irresponsible for (caveat: most) drivers to switch to DTC, or grossly sin, by switching off DSC.

HighlandPete

I was actually starting to agree with some of your posts, until you got to this totally illogical conclusion. BMW take a completely neutral position about the use of DTC (or indeed switching of DSC+)

This is what they say about DTC (from post #1):

Originally Posted by BMW

Under these circumstances the system ensures maximum forward traction, but at a certain cost in terms of stability. Consequently, you must exercise suitable caution when driving under these conditions

This is just a simple factual statement. If you reduce traction control, you get reduced stability assistance .... so use caution. Nothing at all to suggest that using DTC is 'irresponsible', for anyone let alone 'most drivers'.

There are hundreds of terrible drivers on the road. For the most part the ones I see are driving too close to other traffic at inappropriate speeds. DSC won't help them if things go wrong, but like other safety systems it gives these idiots the illusion that the laws of physics don't apply to them.

With DSC 'on' a 3.0 litre BMW does not feel like an edgy powerful car. If feels refined and restrained. Disengage it and drive appropriately (even at 5/10ths) and you suddenly become aware of the power of the car and the levels of grip available. With msport tyres, on a dry day, you really would have to be driving like a complete muppet to get in trouble. If that happens, then I have no sympathy.

Switching of DSC is not irresponsible in any way. Driving badly is.

As someone with a career in safety you should understand this. You can give someone all the PPE, method statements, site rules and training going. But if they act like a cock it won't make them any safer.

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by NFS

Switching of DSC is not irresponsible in any way. Driving badly is.

I'm not sure you are reading me correctly. I'm concerned about the consequences of drivers 'experimenting' with what we all know is a potentially lethal weapon. Going outside their skill levels on the public highway. (I know it is not just DTC or DSC that are involved). We all have a personal responsibility while driving a motor vehicle, especially to other road users. As the DSA driving manual states of drivers "making safety their overriding priority". I've no issue with drivers experimenting, but when and where we do it, on private roads, tracks, training courses, etc.

I think we are playing with words here, you tell me what adjective you would use for someone who switches DTC and DSC, without understanding the possible consequences to themselves and others. Particularly when they are used to driving with the aids at default settings.

I see it that BMW have covered themselves, what of the driver?

Would it be better to say, ill-considered, unwise, reckless, immature, or what?

HighlandPete

[NFS]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

I think we are playing with words here, you tell me what adjective you would use for someone who switches DTC and DSC, without understanding the possible consequences to themselves and others. Particularly when they are used to driving with the aids at default settings.

You said that switching off DSC was irresponsible for 'most' drivers. It's not. Nor is it ill-considered, unwise, reckless or immature. It's perfectly safe and sensible.

Have you driven with DTC on or DSC off? From your comments it's beginning to sound as if you think it's some sort of nuclear launch button. We live in a litigious society and if it was dangerous in ANY way to switch DSC off, BMW would hard wire it on and get rid of the button altogether.

Switching off DSC disables the traction control. I don't think there are many people driving BMW's who would not understand that on a basic level. Those people would also understand that this will affect the cars roadholding. It's almost as if you think people will switch it off then immediately start doing j-turns in school playgrounds, without somehow sensing that this may be dangerous.

Pressing DTC does not result in an undriveable car that can only be handled safely by a qualified racing driver. My mum could drive my car with DSC off. In fact, my car with DSC off is probably 'safer' than a 5 yr old vauxhall corsa.

I genuinely don't understand where you are coming from with this. I'd also be concerned about drivers 'experimenting' on the public highway. No-one should be driving at 10/10ths on the public roads. But this has nothing at all to do with DSC. No-one is suggesting that we should switch it off so that we can do powerslides until our tyres melt.

[Dave_3]

Descending into semantics ... but look at the unexpected wobble Matt had (with all safety settings on). http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=357570

You really think he would be just as safe with them all off ?

Some here are saying "be aware of what these safety aids do and what could happen if you switch them off" to your "If they are stupid it is their own fault".

I'd rather have said something than sit back.

D.

[NFS]

Originally Posted by Dave_3

Descending into semantics ... but look at the unexpected wobble Matt had (with all safety settings on). http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=357570

You really think he would be just as safe with them all off ?

Some here are saying "be aware of what these safety aids do and what could happen if you switch them off" to your "If they are stupid it is their own fault".

I'd rather have said something than sit back.

D.

Why would anyone switch traction control off at 120mph in a Motorway (or ahem Autobahn) situation?

I've not disagreed with the principle that people should be aware of the impact of disabling safety aids. I don't think it's my job to warn anyone, but if you want to that's fine.

What I disagree with is the statements being made that it is irresponsible to disable traction control on a public road. That's just plain wrong.

[Dave_3]

Originally Posted by NFS

I also doubt very much that stability control would have made the slightest difference in the situation Matt described.

We could argue that they helped him in that situation, what makes you certain they didn't activate ?

D.

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by NFS

You said that switching off DSC was irresponsible for 'most' drivers. It's not. Nor is it ill-considered, unwise, reckless or immature. It's perfectly safe and sensible.

I'll make one final posting on this topic. DTC/DSC is really only one aspect of what we are talking of here. I've had to sit in court and hear what happens, when peoples actions are dissected by the authorities. How lives are destroyed.

I've done this in my professional capacity. I also had to attend court as a key witness when I watched a car in front of me, crushed by an oncoming vehicle. I'd have personally, in that instance, given the 'offending' driver the benefit of the situation, but the court didn't. I've also sat by the bedside as my best mate died at 25 years of age, after being mangled by a driver who was not in control of his vehicle.

I wish I had more confidence in the driving I see around me, but I don't see the evidence. I don't see any need to change my view of 'most' drivers not being responsible, particularly if they experiment on the highway, even worse if they read on the internet 'opinion' which can be interpreted as an 'egging on' to try some driving method or another.

I totally agree we all have individual responsibility, I just hope no one has to defend their action, if something seriously goes wrong. It is not a pleasant experience to witness, I assure you.

Over and out.

HighlandPete

[M3-FAST]

[zltm089]

LOL....

[F104]

I believe this thread has gone a little off track and is mixing things. All DTC does is allow some more wheel spin. I'm with NFS and others for two reasons:

1) i believe (first stage) DTC makes you a better driver. Now you can feel safely when you push the car vs. conditions (i know - this from a 320d driver). The opposite is ABS, when where you need & feel it, you've got no margin left. In the view of most of us having 200 bhp+ cars i would think the driver depending braking is a way greater concern than the electronic controlled acceleration.

2) (minimal) tyre slip is dead normal, Rubber tyres don't work without slip, and that's partially why steam rollers don't corner very well. All DTC does is increase that slip a little.

[A335i]

This thread has really become a joke due to the posts of a few people. Disengaging DTC is not dangerous or a suicidal thing to do! The car will still save your arse if needed.

However, disengaging the whole traction system and stating it's not an irresponsible thing to do is in itself an irresponsible comment, apart from obviously if your blessed with the god given talents which several members on this forum seem to posses and have missed the chance to create formula one history.

In no way I am saying do not disable your traction control system, it's your car, drive it off a cliff for all I care, not really going to bother me, but what I'm saying is be prepared to face the consequence when in one, whether careless or accidental action you potentially loose control of the car unexpectedly, whether it be a pothole, ice or swerving to avoid something on the street. In that instance best hope that the car is the only thing you end up damaging and better still why not come back to the forum and ask someone for advice of what the best way to go about gaining control of the car when it absolutely goes crazy on your arse instead of them explaining the technicalities of the traction system of the car, because in all honesty is anyone really interested.

Think about it logically why is it that for the 335i, and other models i.e 135i, one of the most hyped about product was the LSD, be it the quaiffe or Wavetrac or any other make. Why is it that the all the top magazines, with actual experts writing about this car, say that the best thing for this car if you had to choose was an lsd an a remap. Therefore instead of spending about £1,500 on an lsd, do the clever thing and just turn off your traction system, why has no one thought off that I wonder?.

[NFS]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

I don't see any need to change my view of 'most' drivers not being responsible, particularly if they experiment on the highway, even worse if they read on the internet 'opinion' which can be interpreted as an 'egging on' to try some driving method or another.

I'm not responsible for the way other people drive and I'm not egging anyone on.

Originally Posted by ajuggessur

Disengaging DTC is not dangerous or a suicidal thing to do! The car will still save your arse if needed.

I wouldn't rely on this. The car will not necessarily save you even with DSC+ engaged. The laws of physics always win.

Originally Posted by ajuggessur

However, disengaging the whole traction system and stating it's not an irresponsible thing to do is in itself an irresponsible comment, apart from obviously if your blessed with the god given talents which several members on this forum seem to posses and have missed the chance to create formula one history.

You don't need any particular talent to drive with DSC off. The limits of handling remain the same. These limits are very high on a 3 series and you would have to be deliberately 'pressing on' to exceed them.

If you are not confident of knowing where (or what) the limit is and have no experience of handling a skid in a RWD car, then leave the traction control on and slow down.

I think some of the people posting in this thread have not had the opportunity to see how the car handles without DSC. I drove my 330i on a track with DSC on full, DTC on and with DSC off. In that situation I'm absolutely certain that it was safer with DSC off altogether as the handling was more progressive and predictable.

I wouldn't switch DSC off in icy weather, on wet roads, or in situations where my attention was not fully on my driving. However, on a warm dry day at appropriate speeds it is definitely not dangerous in anyway. Anyone who suggests that I am being irresponsible is absolutely wrong.

[- Paul -]

I still haven't tried it on mine - I used to turn it off on the 320d though. Think I'll wait for some nice weather before I risk it.