N55 rod knock/spun bearing tracking

fatty335 · 03-11-2019, 05:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TZANIDO777

Bearings out of a used donor engine that I decided to replace with WPC coated OEM bearings since I still have it on the stand.

Car had 55K miles and oil analysis report came back good from some oil I could scavenge that was still in the pan when I opened it. (better than nothing)

Thanks for posting...not very bueno for 55K. I'm guessing you have no history on this particular motor?

TZANIDO777 · 03-11-2019, 08:08 AM

Yeah, they did show a good amount of wear.

Unfortunately, not too much history on this engine.

I can psot the blackstone report later tonight when I get home but did not show anything concerning on it.

bbnks2 · 03-11-2019, 08:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TZANIDO777

Yeah, they did show a good amount of wear.

Unfortunately, not too much history on this engine.

I can psot the blackstone report later tonight when I get home but did not show anything concerning on it.

Looks like normal wear.

These are "normal" worn bearings pulled out of an E9x M3 @5x,xxx miles by BPC. Here you can see the difference between normal wear and the two "upper" shells (bottom left of picture) that show some copper. The bearings you pulled out don't look bad at all...:

Pladi · 03-11-2019, 09:05 AM

Those bearings are all scored and heat damaged. They dont look good. Bearings under normal wear do not have discoloration like that. I disagree that they look normal for 55k. You can pull bearings from engines with 300k that look MUCH better than that.

TZANIDO777 · 03-11-2019, 09:20 AM

Thanks guys, replaced them with WPC coated bearings and plan to install the M2 oiling system. Have all the parts but after swapping out all the bearings and cranking the engine by hand I am getting this popping noise right before cylinder 3 & 4 hits BDC so I have been slightly hesistant to start putting everything back until I can figure out that noise. Rather fix it now while the engine is on a stand if it is an issue.

Ive been talking with fatty335 on the side, we seem to think its normal and coming from the Vanos. Engine turns over smoothly without any binding otherwise, I just get this pop sound.

It happens at the same time once every full rotation. I ordered a mechanics stethoscope to narrow down the noise.

feuer · 03-11-2019, 09:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pladi

Those bearings are all scored and heat damaged. They dont look good. Bearings under normal wear do not have discoloration like that. I disagree that they look normal for 55k. You can pull bearings from engines with 300k that look MUCH better than that.

Unfortunately they do look normal, but limited to BMW only

Pladi · 03-11-2019, 10:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by feuer

Unfortunately they do look normal, but limited to BMW only

Bmw normal ahhh yes love it hahahaha. I forget BMW normal is to lower expectation by 80 percent. Lol.

bbnks2 · 03-11-2019, 10:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by feuer

Unfortunately they do look normal, but limited to BMW only

Yes, normal as in that is how the bearings look coming out of every BMW for the past 20 years lol.

Maybe a Honda civic sees less wear but these are high load and relatively high rpm motors. Those pics he posted don't look all that bad IMO. Better than those M3 bearings I posted anyway... and no copper showing through anywhere.

Here is a guide from Clevite's which shows that 2/3 wear on the bearing face is normal wear:http://www.wilmink.nl/Clevite/Clevit..._tech_info.pdf

bbnks2 · 03-11-2019, 10:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TZANIDO777

Thanks guys, replaced them with WPC coated bearings and plan to install the M2 oiling system. Have all the parts but after swapping out all the bearings and cranking the engine by hand I am getting this popping noise right before cylinder 3 & 4 hits BDC so I have been slightly hesistant to start putting everything back until I can figure out that noise. Rather fix it now while the engine is on a stand if it is an issue.

Ive been talking with fatty335 on the side, we seem to think its normal and coming from the Vanos. Engine turns over smoothly without any binding otherwise, I just get this pop sound.

It happens at the same time once every full rotation. I ordered a mechanics stethoscope to narrow down the noise.

A noise like this? Seems to be normal noise of the VANOS loading up and releasing tension without oil pressure.

TZANIDO777 · 03-11-2019, 11:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bbnks2

Quote:

Originally Posted by TZANIDO777

Thanks guys, replaced them with WPC coated bearings and plan to install the M2 oiling system. Have all the parts but after swapping out all the bearings and cranking the engine by hand I am getting this popping noise right before cylinder 3 & 4 hits BDC so I have been slightly hesistant to start putting everything back until I can figure out that noise. Rather fix it now while the engine is on a stand if it is an issue.

Ive been talking with fatty335 on the side, we seem to think its normal and coming from the Vanos. Engine turns over smoothly without any binding otherwise, I just get this pop sound.

It happens at the same time once every full rotation. I ordered a mechanics stethoscope to narrow down the noise.

A noise like this? Seems to be normal noise of the VANOS loading up and releasing tension without oil pressure.

My noise is a bit different than that. That is a consistent almost every second noise where as mine only happens once every full rotation of the crank and at the exact same point during each rotation.

Probably best if I post a video later today when I get home.

feuer · 03-11-2019, 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bbnks2

Yes, normal as in that is how the bearings look coming out of every BMW for the past 20 years lol.

Maybe a Honda civic sees less wear but these are high load and relatively high rpm motors. Those pics he posted don't look all that bad IMO. Better than those M3 bearings I posted anyway... and no copper showing through anywhere.

Here is a guide from Clevite's which shows that 2/3 wear on the bearing face is normal wear:http://www.wilmink.nl/Clevite/Clevit..._tech_info.pdf

Not all that bad but bad never the less. It's 55k engine. Definitely not how bearings should look like. Top 1, 2 and 3 show scoring and heat damage. 20 years ? Every BMW? I disagree. S54, S65 engines sure and n54/55.

TheGoodTheBadTheUgly · 03-11-2019, 11:18 AM

Why are we even speaking of M3 here hahaha, that engine has it's own problems and I don't even want to get into that.

What is interesting is some are stating that this is "normal" wear for the N55. Ok, it might be common and like this for all the cars but is it acceptable?

I mean these look pretty roughed up for a car with 55K Miles. Don't look at if they could still work and for how long they could still work but more too how long did it take to put them in such a bad shape. Are all the BMW bearings on similar engines wearing like this?

Pladi · 03-11-2019, 11:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bbnks2

Yes, normal as in that is how the bearings look coming out of every BMW for the past 20 years lol.

Maybe a Honda civic sees less wear but these are high load and relatively high rpm motors. Those pics he posted don't look all that bad IMO. Better than those M3 bearings I posted anyway... and no copper showing through anywhere.

Here is a guide from Clevite's which shows that 2/3 wear on the bearing face is normal wear:http://www.wilmink.nl/Clevite/Clevit..._tech_info.pdf

High load motor ? That doesn't mean more bearing wear.. Bearings wear because of oil starvation and foreign material. The oil film strength on synthetic oils is above 20,000 PSI. The difference between a " lower load" and "higher load" as you describe will be way below that pressure anyways..

Also the doc you provided if you compare the picture of normal with what has been posted they look nothing alike.

So what i am saying essentially if you do have that oil film in between bearing and journal doesnt matter high load or low load.. it will be protected.

So we like to find these easy excuses for a shitty BMW design... OO this is a FERRARI engine here very high performance so this wear is normal.. wtf its an engine for family sedans.. they fail at 50k under normal conditions and never seeing any racing.. Nothing normal about these shitty looking bearings after 50k nothing

Ozzie335i · 03-11-2019, 12:25 PM

I have most of the parts for my bearing swap out. No one was home when the postman tried to deliver the bearings on Saturday. I'll post photos after they have been swapped out.

bbnks2 · 03-11-2019, 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheGoodTheBadTheUgly

I mean these look pretty roughed up for a car with 55K Miles. Don't look at if they could still work and for how long they could still work but more too how long did it take to put them in such a bad shape. Are all the BMW bearings on similar engines wearing like this?

So you don't want me to mention the wear on M3's but then you ask people to mention the wear on other BMW engines? Makes total sense...

S52, S54, S65, S85, yes, pretty much every BMW engine since early 2000's (20 years) have similar stories about rod bearings. Follow BPC or any other BMW page that does this type of work and they post up pics daily of rod bearings. Making mountains out of mole holes by saying those bearings look bad. Show me some copper and then I'll agree...

If you don't think load/rpm plays a roll in fatigue life of the bearings surface then IDK what to tell you.

Pladi · 03-11-2019, 12:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ozzie335i

I have most of the parts for my bearing swap out. No one was home when the postman tried to deliver the bearings on Saturday. I'll post photos after they have been swapped out.

thanks ozzie

TheGoodTheBadTheUgly · 03-11-2019, 12:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bbnks2

So you don't want me to mention the wear on M3's but then you ask people to mention the wear on other BMW engines? Makes total sense...

S52, S54, S65, S85, yes, pretty much every BMW engine since early 2000's (20 years) have similar stories about rod bearings. Follow BPC or any other BMW page that does this type of work and they post up pics daily of rod bearings. Making mountains out of mole holes by saying those bearings look bad. Show me some copper and then I'll agree...

If you don't think load/rpm plays a roll in fatigue life of the bearings surface then IDK what to tell you.

Well I said similar engines exactly for that. Didn't want to start comparing the 8 cylinder S65 with our N55. Trying to keep it the more apples to apples possible.

Pladi · 03-11-2019, 01:10 PM

There are now soo many toyota 86 brz engines out there supercharged making 360 HP with stock internals... yet we are talking about stock n55's with 50k ..

Not a single case of bearing issues on an engine that is making over 160 HP than it was designed for... and we blabber here about high load and high performance ..its frankly high bullshit.

bbnks2 · 03-11-2019, 02:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pladi

There are now soo many toyota 86 brz engines out there supercharged making 360 HP with stock internals... yet we are talking about stock n55's with 50k ..

Not a single case of bearing issues on an engine that is making over 160 HP than it was designed for... and we blabber here about high load and high performance ..its frankly high bullshit.

You realize you post a lot of stuff based on pure conjecture, right? "so many" frs/brz? It was actually an extremely low production vehicle in comparison to the N55 which BMW put into just about everything.

The Subaru FA20 series engine is horribly unreliable along with the Subaru EJ series engines lol. They use a similar 2" crank rod journal diameter and I've seen people saying their rod bearing clearances were measured to be anywhere from .0007" to .0012." which is why the Toyotas run 0-20 oil... significantly tighter than BMW's .0015."

A simple google search returns countless examples:
https://www.google.com/search?q=FRS+...hrome&ie=UTF-8
https://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=51846
https://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=107585

"FRS/BRZ DoNt HaVe RoD KnOcK"

I've seen a supercharged BRZ blow up on the track right in front of me

Almost as bad as saying N54's don't spin bearings lol...

9krpmrx8 · 03-11-2019, 02:02 PM

Making 360HP for how long? Those engines pop left and right.

There are so many variables that comparisons like that are silly anyway. So if my FBO E90 N55 that has been at 19-20 PSI for years is healthy at 103,000 what does that mean? Does that counter anyone who thinks there is a "bearing issue" with the N55? I mean there are so many variables and these documented failures are miniscule in relation to how many N55's are on the road.

Pladi · 03-11-2019, 02:44 PM

ok ok no issues with n55.. everything is ok i retire.

9krpmrx8 · 03-11-2019, 02:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pladi

ok ok no issues with n55.. everything is ok i retire.

Well based on your logic then yes, because most N55 owners actually go over 100k with no engine issues.

Again, a few documented failures means nothing when you consider the hundreds of thousands of N55's built.

03-11-2019, 08:08 AM	#156
TZANIDO777 Lieutenant 73 Rep 527 Posts Drives: 2011 E82 135i, 2015 F15 X5 35D Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: NY iTrader: (2) Garage List 2020 BMW X5 40i [0.00] 2011 BMW 135i [0.00]	Yeah, they did show a good amount of wear. Unfortunately, not too much history on this engine. I can psot the blackstone report later tonight when I get home but did not show anything concerning on it.
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03-11-2019, 09:05 AM	#158
Pladi Lieutenant Colonel 719 Rep 1,753 Posts Drives: 2011 335i xdrive Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Waterloo, ON Canada iTrader: (0)	Those bearings are all scored and heat damaged. They dont look good. Bearings under normal wear do not have discoloration like that. I disagree that they look normal for 55k. You can pull bearings from engines with 300k that look MUCH better than that.
	Appreciate 0 Quote

03-11-2019, 09:20 AM	#159
TZANIDO777 Lieutenant 73 Rep 527 Posts Drives: 2011 E82 135i, 2015 F15 X5 35D Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: NY iTrader: (2) Garage List 2020 BMW X5 40i [0.00] 2011 BMW 135i [0.00]	Thanks guys, replaced them with WPC coated bearings and plan to install the M2 oiling system. Have all the parts but after swapping out all the bearings and cranking the engine by hand I am getting this popping noise right before cylinder 3 & 4 hits BDC so I have been slightly hesistant to start putting everything back until I can figure out that noise. Rather fix it now while the engine is on a stand if it is an issue. Ive been talking with fatty335 on the side, we seem to think its normal and coming from the Vanos. Engine turns over smoothly without any binding otherwise, I just get this pop sound. It happens at the same time once every full rotation. I ordered a mechanics stethoscope to narrow down the noise.
	Appreciate 0 Quote

03-11-2019, 11:18 AM	#166
TheGoodTheBadTheUgly Captain 258 Rep 674 Posts Drives: 2011 E90 335i xDrive Join Date: Feb 2018 Location: Gatineau iTrader: (0)	Why are we even speaking of M3 here hahaha, that engine has it's own problems and I don't even want to get into that. What is interesting is some are stating that this is "normal" wear for the N55. Ok, it might be common and like this for all the cars but is it acceptable? I mean these look pretty roughed up for a car with 55K Miles. Don't look at if they could still work and for how long they could still work but more too how long did it take to put them in such a bad shape. Are all the BMW bearings on similar engines wearing like this? __________________ TOTALED \| 2011 E90 335i xDrive - BMS Cold Air Intake - ETS Charge Pipe - ETS 7" FMIC - MHD Stage 2+ - GFB DV+ - PE Mod - VRSF Catless Downpipe - xDelete - xHP Stage 3 2015 E84 X1 35i M-Sport
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03-11-2019, 12:25 PM	#168
Ozzie335i Lieutenant Colonel 659 Rep 1,525 Posts Drives: 2011 335i Join Date: Aug 2014 Location: DFW iTrader: (1)	I have most of the parts for my bearing swap out. No one was home when the postman tried to deliver the bearings on Saturday. I'll post photos after they have been swapped out.
	Appreciate 0 Quote

03-11-2019, 01:10 PM	#172
Pladi Lieutenant Colonel 719 Rep 1,753 Posts Drives: 2011 335i xdrive Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Waterloo, ON Canada iTrader: (0)	There are now soo many toyota 86 brz engines out there supercharged making 360 HP with stock internals... yet we are talking about stock n55's with 50k .. Not a single case of bearing issues on an engine that is making over 160 HP than it was designed for... and we blabber here about high load and high performance ..its frankly high bullshit.
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03-11-2019, 02:02 PM	#174
9krpmrx8 Clean is the new cool, keep it that way. 808 Rep 1,685 Posts Drives: 11' Alpine White 335i Sedan Join Date: Jan 2016 Location: San Antonio, Texas iTrader: (0)	Making 360HP for how long? Those engines pop left and right. There are so many variables that comparisons like that are silly anyway. So if my FBO E90 N55 that has been at 19-20 PSI for years is healthy at 103,000 what does that mean? Does that counter anyone who thinks there is a "bearing issue" with the N55? I mean there are so many variables and these documented failures are miniscule in relation to how many N55's are on the road. __________________ 2011 335i, FBO, N55+ Turbo, full E85, S55 intercooler, etc. 2015 X5 35i Xdrive
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03-11-2019, 02:44 PM	#175
Pladi Lieutenant Colonel 719 Rep 1,753 Posts Drives: 2011 335i xdrive Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Waterloo, ON Canada iTrader: (0)	ok ok no issues with n55.. everything is ok i retire.
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