[satinghostrider]

Originally Posted by LambOfGod

I see that many of you are using a Vacuum / Pressure gauge to monitor your boost pressure. Typically, these types of gauges are somewhat unreliable for monitoring pressure spikes because the bourdon tube / mechanical type gauge cannot react fast enough to display the actual pressure spike. The only reliable way to measure pressure spikes is to utilize a strain type electronic pressure sensor hooked up to a computer or data logging system. Even with electrical devices there are plenty of issues that limit accuracy like heat and electrical noise. I'm no expert but I'd rely on the feedback from the engine devices before I'd rely on what a pressure gauge told me especially if the gauge is a standard run of the mill bourdon tube type gauge. Gauges are mass produced and usually are not well calibrated. For industrial usages the gauge must be tested by a 3rd party and come with a certificate of accuracy. These gauges are usually 4-6" in diameter and come with some type of adjustments for span and zero adjustment. Even with that the gauge is typically all over the map on hysteresis and repeatability. Gauges can be off by as much as 10% new out of the box. I suspect that if you see a spike of 18 psig the real spike is much higher than that. Compressed air is pretty tricky to control and spikes are inevitable especially in high volume applications. Every time you put your foot on and off the throttle there are huge swings in pressure that requires fast acting pressure management systems. A mechanical pressure gauge cannot keep up. Has anyone tried to monitor the pressure spike is a more sophisticated manner?

A more sophisticated manner in what way?

[e90AW335i]

Originally Posted by LambOfGod

BTW...you can tell when Eugen is pissed. His engilish goes to hell.

. hopefully it gets solved soon....

[OpenFlash]

Beta testing can be work. That is why we appreciate it.

shiv

[e90AW335i]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

Beta testing can be work. That is why we appreciate it.

shiv

+1,

[e.n335]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

oh i see. You have an email. Also, if you can, use the default user tq settings that are in the map I just sent you. They are conservative.

shiv

I will use your torque settings. You have an email as well.

- Eugen

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by e.n335

I will use your torque settings. You have an email as well.

- Eugen

Got your email. Yes, overboost is disabled in that map.

[LambOfGod]

Originally Posted by elmariachi

A more sophisticated manner in what way?

I guess if I were doing engine development I'd have a pressure sensor in the manifold and run data log using the most sophisticated type of sensor I could find. Or perhaps the pressure sensing devices on the engine are accurate enough and data logging can be tied into this device. I don't know but I'm wondering what engine builders do when mapping an engine management ecu device. Do they utilize the OEM equipment or do they use more sophisticated devices? Vishnu is really starting to push the envelope or safety zone of the 335 engine and drive train. It would be nice to know that some of the parameters are being reviewed for reliability sake.

[scalbert]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

No problem. I sent a map to scalbert and eugen last night that recalibrates the MAP sensor response curve (to read like a mechanical gauge), disables the overboost and does a few other things. I'm waiting to hear from them before releasing the map.

I just sent an email, I'll follow up tomorrow with more information when the rain lets up.

[scalbert]

Originally Posted by LambOfGod

I guess if I were doing engine development I'd have a pressure sensor in the manifold and run data log using the most sophisticated type of sensor I could find. Or perhaps the pressure sensing devices on the engine are accurate enough and data logging can be tied into this device. I don't know but I'm wondering what engine builders do when mapping an engine management ecu device. Do they utilize the OEM equipment or do they use more sophisticated devices? Vishnu is really starting to push the envelope or safety zone of the 335 engine and drive train. It would be nice to know that some of the parameters are being reviewed for reliability sake.

True, a mechanical gauge can be off. But the deltas we are seeing are proof enough. If we realy want accuracy, we have several 0.01% accurate pressure sensors along with high speed data acquisition. But it costs a bit more than a $40 VDO gauge.

Heck, we even have some spark plugs with piezo based pressure sensors we could throw in. When combined with the CPK we can look at combustion pressure versus crank angle. Pretty fun to play with but it costs a few bucks.

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by scalbert

Heck, we even have some spark plugs with piezo based pressure sensors we could throw in. When combined with the CPK we can look at combustion pressure versus crank angle. Pretty fun to play with but it costs a few bucks.

Do you know what kind of signal output (0-5v?) that these combustion pressure reading spark plugs provide? This would make a cool product as there are still a couple unused digital and analog I/Os available on the PROcede. As it stands right now, the PROcede can read actual ignition advance (not just offset) by tapping into a spark plug coil and comparing the spark event to the CPK signal. Mapping out a cylinder pressure curve wouldn't be much harder.

Shiv

[e90AW335i]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

Do you know what kind of signal output (0-5v?) that these combustion pressure reading spark plugs provide? This would make a cool product as there are still a couple unused digital and analog I/Os available on the PROcede. As it stands right now, the PROcede can read actual ignition advance (not just offset) by tapping into a spark plug coil and comparing the spark event to the CPK signal. Mapping out a cylinder pressure curve wouldn't be much harder.

Shiv

Pushing the envelope daily....nice....

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by scalbert

I just sent an email, I'll follow up tomorrow with more information when the rain lets up.

Thanks for the feedback.

[e.n335]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

Do you know what kind of signal output (0-5v?) that these combustion pressure reading spark plugs provide? This would make a cool product as there are still a couple unused digital and analog I/Os available on the PROcede. As it stands right now, the PROcede can read actual ignition advance (not just offset) by tapping into a spark plug coil and comparing the spark event to the CPK signal. Mapping out a cylinder pressure curve wouldn't be much harder.

Shiv

Shiv,

Do you still have plans to integrate the O2 wideband ?

Thank you for feedback.

- Eugen

[scalbert]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

Do you know what kind of signal output (0-5v?) that these combustion pressure reading spark plugs provide? This would make a cool product as there are still a couple unused digital and analog I/Os available on the PROcede. As it stands right now, the PROcede can read actual ignition advance (not just offset) by tapping into a spark plug coil and comparing the spark event to the CPK signal. Mapping out a cylinder pressure curve wouldn't be much harder.

Shiv

They require a charge amplifier to get a typical analog output. Plus, no one runs them except race teams and the OEM's. The sensors generally run about $3000 each and the amplifier for six channels would run abbout $6000. So, about $24,000 to outfit a N54.

We are the exclusive manufacturers representative for Kistler:

http://www.kistler.com/do.content.us...ent=20_Engines

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by e.n335

Shiv,

Do you still have plans to integrate the O2 wideband ?

Thank you for feedback.

- Eugen

Yes, but an aftermarket one since it needs to provide a 0-5v signal. All that would be needed is to feed the signal into an unused analog input and set-up the max/min raw/converted values in the datalogging parameters. Takes a couple of minutes. I'd just need to know the calibration data for the wideband.

shiv

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by scalbert

They require a charge amplifier to get a typical analog output. Plus, no one runs them except race teams and the OEM's. The sensors generally run about $3000 each and the amplifier for six channels would run abbout $6000. So, about $24,000 to outfit a N54.

We are the exclusive manufacturers representative for Kistler:

http://www.kistler.com/do.content.us...ent=20_Engines

What a bargain I recall the twin turbo Nissan 300Z (back in the early 90s) having some sort of spark plug mounted pressure sensor from the factory. I'm sure it wasn't as sophisticated. But it would be interesting to look deeper into it.

Shiv

[e.n335]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

Yes, but an aftermarket one since it needs to provide a 0-5v signal. All that would be needed is to feed the signal into an unused analog input and set-up the max/min raw/converted values in the datalogging parameters. Takes a couple of minutes. I'd just need to know the calibration data for the wideband.

shiv

I have the Innovate Motorsports LC-1. So the O2 wideband option would provide perfect AFR, even with high-flow tuning components ( intake, DP's, race cats, etc. ) ? This is what I would be looking for.

Thanks,
Eugen

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by e.n335

I have the Innovate Motorsports LC-1. So the O2 wideband option would provide perfect AFR, even with high-flow tuning components ( intake, DP's, race cats, etc. ) ? This is what I would be looking for.

Thanks,
Eugen

With the LC1, if you use the 0-5 linear output (with default settings), 0v equals 7.35:1 AFR. 5v equals 22.4:1 AFR. So 2.5v equals half way in the middle. Real easy to make a map for that. Just need to know what analog input you want to feed it into.

Shiv

[e.n335]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

With the LC1, if you use the 0-5 linear output (with default settings), 0v equals 7.35:1 AFR. 5v equals 22.4:1 AFR. So 2.5v equals half way in the middle. Real easy to make a map for that. Just need to know what analog input you want to feed it into.

Shiv

Any free input you have not reserved for other features already. IMO the LC1 is not too expensive ( US$199 including the sensor ) and everybody could buy this option when it helps to optimize AFR's. If you could include this function into your standard maps it would be great. A real added value.

A second option would be to allow user defined settings in the PROcede reader software so that PROcede customers could set up different O2 wideband controllers and sensors of their choice. If you consider this option you could make the overboost function user selectable as well.

I will use the LC1 with default settings and sensor on RISS catted downpipes. I have the LC1 already and will get the DP's for sure.

Sorry for offtopic.

- Eugen

[DrewKo]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

The excess pressure is relieved by the bypass valves.

-shiv

If that is the case and the spike is not making it to the manifold, am I correct in assuming that there is no potential damage caused by the boost spike?

Also, if the spike occurs when the throttle is open, that means that the pressure is not relieved by the bypass valves but does travel through to the other systems of the engine. Would that cause any damage over time?

If there is no potential for damage, do the boost spikes matter so much up to 20 psi? I assume they do matter otherwise the ECU would not give a warning.

[Tuned335i]

Originally Posted by scalbert

I just sent an email, I'll follow up tomorrow with more information when the rain lets up.

Cool. Glad to see you guys are finally getting rain. I have family in Newborn and a work colleague in Canton (who used to live in Woodstock...)

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by DrewKo

If that is the case and the spike is not making it to the manifold, am I correct in assuming that there is no potential damage caused by the boost spike?

Correct.

Also, if the spike occurs when the throttle is open, that means that the pressure is not relieved by the bypass valves but does travel through to the other systems of the engine. Would that cause any damage over time?

The bypass valves only open when the throttle is closed. This is because it uses the vacuum generated in the intake manifold to pull open the valve diagrams. If the throttle is open and you see 20psi (I have still yet to witness this on any car first-hand), then the engine is seeing 20psi. The only exception being upon sudden throttle pedal openings around 3000-4000rpm when the actual throttle butterfly opens more slowly relative to the throttle pedal. During this time, you will see slightly higher boost in the intercooler pipe than u will in the intake manifold.

-shiv