[ENINTY]

Originally Posted by flip4335

"Smug, Left Coast Newbie vs Seasoned East Coast Vet"

Wow....the epic battle between Cali newbie know-it-all TotalPower and the venerable VA veteran ENINTY as they discuss with visceral viscosity the question of if it's too oily or too late to change the synthetic oil made expensive by Castrol through the branding by BMW and years of engineering and real world data on oil change frequency...

Stay tuned for the sequel to the oil change wars..."slippery slope to slogging it out on the forum"

Anyone for a Xanax?

Heck, I get it for about $5.94 a quart. Seems resonable to me.

[Clifton]

Originally Posted by ENINTY

Also, I have a full autoshop in my garage, with a lift, air tools, and a full compliment of hand tools worth well over $4,000; so considering that level of investment in DIY maintenance, I think it’s fair to say I'm not mechanically unsympathetic.

BMW already did the testing for me. They've "dialed in" the OCI already; you just don't believe them. And BMW's testing was done under proper test conditions, which we've already gone over previously, unlike an UOA from Blackstone labs.

Wow, you have tools, a garage and DIY oil changes - do you have in-door plumbing and electricity too?

As entertaining as it is to read you frequently post about rarely changing the oil in your car with xxxK miles and boast that it still runs - my old girlfriend has you beat. She has a 98 Toyota Camry V6 with 267K miles and she has never changed the oil with any frequency, if at all - her car still runs fine too. Her theory is much like yours, if the engine doesn't blow, it must be ok to not change the oil often.

If you feel good about doing the manufacture's minimum required maintenance (e.g., following the idiot light), it's your car, blindly do what you like. Bashing others for using real world science vs. your guesswork will continue to make you look silly.

[Clifton]

Originally Posted by HT1000

http://neptune.spacebears.com/cars/stories/mobil1.html

In addition to anti-wear capability of phosphorus they also tested extended drain intervals as noted in the SAE Paper Overview listed below.

My favorite point in that test and something members with $4,000 worth of tools should read - "we'd recommend 8,000 miles between oil changes on an engine that uses no oil at all, perhaps 10,000 miles on an engine that uses some oil, and 15,000 miles or beyond with a filter change every 5,000 miles".

In simple terms - going by BMW's CBS with 15k on the same oil and filter is too long. Can't argue science...

[ENINTY]

Originally Posted by Clifton

Wow, you have tools, a garage and DIY oil changes - do you have in-door plumbing and electricity too?

As entertaining as it is to read you frequently post about rarely changing the oil in your car with xxxK miles and boast that it still runs - my old girlfriend has you beat. She has a 98 Toyota Camry V6 with 267K miles and she has never changed the oil with any frequency, if at all - her car still runs fine too. Her theory is much like yours, if the engine doesn't blow, it must be ok to not change the oil often.

If you feel good about doing the manufacture's minimum required maintenance (e.g., following the idiot light), it's your car, blindly do what you like. Bashing others for using real world science vs. your guesswork will continue to make you look silly.

Oh, I get it, you're insinuating I'm and idiot because you boldface the word "idiot" in the term "idiot light" thus putting the supposition in the reader's mind that if I just follow BMWs CBS (i.e. the "idiot light") then I must be an idiot. I see what you did there. Wow, you are so tricky.

I can only conclude that the reason she's your "old" girlfriend is because she had no mechanical sympathy either. You must be a member of DETA - Drivers for the Ethical Treatment of Automobiles.

I've not bashed anyone, nor called them names. I've merely pointed out the fact that BMW has done the scientific testing already, and in real world practice it has proven to work.

You know, it's funny, every time I take apart parts of my engine - like looking in the valve cover during an oil change, looking in the VANOS solenoid ports (when cleaning the solenoids), inspecting the oil filter housing (which I had off yesterday replacing the profile gasket) - I never find any evidence of oil sludge. I want it to be there so I can prove you guys are right and I'm wrong, but it never turns out that way.

[TotalPower]

this isn't about being an idiot, a genius, or knowing how to format words.

It's merely a difference of opinion on the upside/downside of waiting to change your oil.

The only downside I see in changing your oil early is that perhaps by being overly cautious you are spending a few hundred dollars in the life of your car that was unnecessary. Almost like changing your tires before they are completely bald. Plus side is that your engine will be running at its best and you will get to use your tools and time like us car guys like.

Downside to waiting is that you could be risking engine life if you wait too long, plus side is your hands stay clean and you may save a few hundred bucks if in fact your oil did not absolutely need changing.

Regardless, i respect ENTITY and TOM and whomever else made comments- they are simply their opinions.

BTW, VICTORIAS SECRET FASHION SHOW IS IN 3 DAYS 11/29

[Clifton]

Originally Posted by ENINTY

I've merely pointed out the fact that BMW has done the scientific testing already, and in real world practice it has proven to work.

You know, it's funny, every time I take apart parts of my engine - like looking in the valve cover during an oil change, looking in the VANOS solenoid ports (when cleaning the solenoids), inspecting the oil filter housing (which I had off yesterday replacing the profile gasket) - I never find any evidence of oil sludge. I want it to be there so I can prove you guys are right and I'm wrong, but it never turns out that way.

So removing the oil cap, replacing a profile gasket and cleaning a solenoid constitutes taking apart an engine. Sounds like your $4,000 tool investment is going to waste, my friend. Hope it doesn't take your whole lunch break to put the N52 back together - I'd be sweating bullets right now.

The flaw in your thinking is basing sludge as an indicator of oil/engine health. Looking inside the oil fill hole is no way to know if you are using the same oil/filter too long. Syth oils don't really have the same sludge issue like the dyno oils once did; that is unless you never change the oil.

What you are overlooking on your quest to find sludge is the actual condition of the oil. Can you visually see if the oil is viscosity is diminishing? Can you visually tell how much active additive is left in the oil? Can you visually tell if that 5w30 BMW oil with 17.5k miles on it is still a considered a 30 weight? Or how about how much wear the oil is causing due to the worn out filter element?

Before you do another full tear down on your engine again and look inside oil fill hole, the answer is no you can't visually see any of the aforementioned without oil analysis.

Extended oil/filter change intervals without oil analysis is guesswork. Following BMW CBS is considered minimum maintenance and that applies to just about every fluid in the car.

[FCBuff]

Originally Posted by mashimarho

Alright then, enough said. 15k it is.

Problem is that the computer usually will recomend it at more like 18,000miles or so. That has been my experience.

Additionally, there is no way I would go with the extended interval in a turbo charged engine.


I simply don't trust any oil that long...period. UOA's show the BMW oil is good upto about 10,000 miles.


Change it every 7,500 miles or so and you will be good.

[ENINTY]

Originally Posted by Clifton

So removing the oil cap, replacing a profile gasket and cleaning a solenoid constitutes taking apart an engine. Sounds like your $4,000 tool investment is going to waste, my friend. Hope it doesn't take your whole lunch break to put the N52 back together - I'd be sweating bullets right now.

The flaw in your thinking is basing sludge as an indicator of oil/engine health. Looking inside the oil fill hole is no way to know if you are using the same oil/filter too long. Syth oils don't really have the same sludge issue like the dyno oils once did; that is unless you never change the oil.

What you are overlooking on your quest to find sludge is the actual condition of the oil. Can you visually see if the oil is viscosity is diminishing? Can you visually tell how much active additive is left in the oil? Can you visually tell if that 5w30 BMW oil with 17.5k miles on it is still a considered a 30 weight? Or how about how much wear the oil is causing due to the worn out filter element?

Before you do another full tear down on your engine again and look inside oil fill hole, the answer is no you can't visually see any of the aforementioned without oil analysis.

Extended oil/filter change intervals without oil analysis is guesswork. Following BMW CBS is considered minimum maintenance and that applies to just about every fluid in the car.

You tell me, an engine that loses 1 quart of oil about every 17,000 miles, from mile 0 to mile 161,000, where is the wear?

[Clifton]

Originally Posted by ENINTY

You tell me, an engine that loses 1 quart of oil about every 17,000 miles, from mile 0 to mile 161,000, where is the wear?

I like your wording there "about every". Lots of room for error with no way to back it up. My old girlfriend never added oil from 0 to mile 267K miles either.

How about sharing the viscosity of the that oil at 17K mile???

[ENINTY]

Originally Posted by Clifton

I like your wording there "about every". Lots of room for error with no way to back it up. My old girlfriend never added oil from 0 to mile 267K miles either.

How about sharing the viscosity of the that oil at 17K mile???

5W-30.

OCI's:
17,640
29,950 - Checked accuracy of oil condition/level sensor when showing 1/2 quart down.
38,134
54,252
71,517
89,670
107,455
126,127
143,448
161,344

Go do the math...

[chris328i]

Originally Posted by FCBuff

Problem is that the computer usually will recomend it at more like 18,000miles or so. That has been my experience.

Additionally, there is no way I would go with the extended interval in a turbo charged engine.


I simply don't trust any oil that long...period. UOA's show the BMW oil is good upto about 10,000 miles.


Change it every 7,500 miles or so and you will be good.

Blackstone Labs and other independent testing show the oil to be fine at 15,000 miles or more. Blackstone usually recommends 10,000 mile changes based on universal averages for 7,500 mile drains. This does not mean there is any issue with changing the oil at 15,000 miles as their UOA confirms.

[Chriztofor]

To answer the ops question, there is no downside to change oil every 6k except for a lighter wallet. Can we close the thread now?

My personal experience, purchased a 2000 323i new and changed oil at 15k intervals, it is still on the road after 200k. For my current car I am changing at 10k just to feel warm and fuzzy. Also, I kinda don't trust BMW's recommendations after they claim that the trans fluid is 'lifetime."

[topcat87]

one downside i have is that you get just serviced smooooooth engine syndrome(purs at cruising speed and quieter at idle) after the more frequent oil changes so u get to experience it more frequently

[Clifton]

Originally Posted by ENINTY

5W-30.

OCI's:
17,640
...
161,344

Go do the math...

You've wondered off on your own discussion again, as per usual....

[chris328i]

Originally Posted by Chriztofor

To answer the ops question, there is no downside to change oil every 6k except for a lighter wallet.

The Mobil 1, Ford and Conoco oil testing showed used oil reduces wear over new oil so there are two drawbacks to changing the oil earlier than 15K - increased cost and more importantly increased engine wear.

http://neptune.spacebears.com/cars/stories/mobil1.html

"Engine wear actually decreases as oil ages. This has also been substantiated in testing conducted by Ford Motor Co. and ConocoPhillips, and reported in SAE Technical Paper 2003-01-3119. What this means is that compulsive oil changers are actually causing more engine wear than the people who let their engine's oil get some age on it."

[ENINTY]

Originally Posted by Clifton

You've wondered off on your own discussion again, as per usual....

You really do argue like a child. It's funny. Thanks for the entertainment.

[ZURICH]

[QUOTE=samchoi604;10847460]Still a relatively new engine (4 years). Oil change costs me $70 for BMW approved oil and filter.


Ye Gods, the oil filter costs more than that here in Switzerland and you don't want to know how much the correct oil is and then labour, you dont get any change out of 500 bucks, this is why we dont usually go for low millage changes, that said we also don't get premature Turbo or engine failure.
I am on 136,000 Km with no lubrication related failures and I go with BMW reccomended maint periods.
Motor oil has changed so much in the last 20 years, bearing no or little resemblance to old school oils, trust the professionals and save your cash.

[Chriztofor]

Originally Posted by chris328i

The Mobil 1, Ford and Conoco oil testing showed used oil reduces wear over new oil so there are two drawbacks to changing the oil earlier than 15K - increased cost and more importantly increased engine wear.

http://neptune.spacebears.com/cars/stories/mobil1.html

"Engine wear actually decreases as oil ages. This has also been substantiated in testing conducted by Ford Motor Co. and ConocoPhillips, and reported in SAE Technical Paper 2003-01-3119. What this means is that compulsive oil changers are actually causing more engine wear than the people who let their engine's oil get some age on it."

Not exactly, they also state, "Based on the results we've got here, we'd recommend 8,000 miles between oil changes on an engine that uses no oil at all, perhaps 10,000 miles on an engine that uses some oil, and 15,000 miles or beyond with a filter change every 5,000 miles. This, of course, isn't any kind of guarantee, and you must evaluate for yourself what your engine requires. One thing we're pretty sure about though: 3,000-mile intervals is a huge waste of resources."

Therefore, according to them, changing your oil every 3,000 miles may cause extra wear to your engine. 6k oil changes close enough. Personally, 10k for me.

[HT1000]

Since new oil increases wear over used oil and Blackstone has confirmed the oil to be fine at 15K I'm following what BMW mandates.

[Chriztofor]

Originally Posted by HT1000

Since new oil increases wear over used oil and Blackstone has confirmed the oil to be fine at 15K I'm following what BMW mandates.

The only problem, BMW doesn't mandate changing the oil filter. I definitely would change the filter half-way between changes.

[HT1000]

Originally Posted by Chriztofor

The only problem, BMW doesn't mandate changing the oil filter. I definitely would change the filter half-way between changes.

There is no reason to believe the oil filter needs to be changed any more often than 15k when you change the oil.

[Chriztofor]

Originally Posted by HT1000

There is no reason to believe the oil filter needs to be changed any more often than 15k when you change the oil.

According to the report "Topping up the crankcase is a critical component of extended oil change intervals, and frequent filter changes are most likely the key to extreme-length intervals. The cumulative effect of even minor top-ups, let alone a filter change, substantially increases the longevity of the oil."

It makes sense, what is the purpose of a filter, it traps contaniments, therefore changing the filter can't hurt especially if you are going to do the 15k change interval.