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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > NA Engine (non-turbo) / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications > I think she's hurt bad



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      05-09-2018, 06:52 PM   #1
Red Lightning
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I think she's hurt bad

Hello, just joined this forum, so a short introduction. I've been a tech since 1987 in several shops, worked on everything that fits through the door and a few things in the lot that wouldn't fit. I have a '03 Ford Lightning, '04 Ford Thunderbird, '05 Ford Mustang GT, and a '03 Jaguar XJ8.

I searched for this, but I don't know if I'm looking in the right place.

My very good friend owns the 2007 BMW 328i hardtop convertible, inline 6 with a 6 speed manual. The front of his engine is extremely oily, which has been an o-ring on the oil filter recently(someone changed filter but not o-ring), but I suspect the oil filter housing gasket also due to shear amount of build up. Car popped a 'no-charging' tell tale while on the highway. stalled shortly after that. His serpentine belt shredded, all we found was black, oily spaghetti. Engine cranks with no compression at all and has an engine code P0016, referring to cam/crank reference or sync. I removed the balancer and found the belt debris packed behind the balancer and the front seal pushed in toward the block. At this point I'm nearly certain it's out of time.

I have a few questions:
1. Is this an interference engine? 8th vin digit is a 5.
2. Rebuild or replace this engine if catastrophic damage is present?
3. What are your thoughts on used engines and possible sources?

Thanks if you made it this far, I know it was a bit long.

Red.
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      05-09-2018, 07:37 PM   #2
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You may want to pull the oil pan to check for the remnants of that belt. N52s have been known to suck the belt carcass into the oil pickup tube.

N52s are pretty easy to find. If it's trashed you're probably better off buying a used one.

I feel dumb but I can't tell you if it's an interference engine. Someone will be along shortly to inform us.
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      05-09-2018, 07:56 PM   #3
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Thanks for the quick reply!

I'm leaning towards a used engine also.

No reason two feel dumb, most engines these days are interference due to every manufacturer trying to squeeze efficiency and horsepower from every corner they can find it. I was just wanting confirmation because this engine spins like the spark plugs are missing.
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      05-09-2018, 08:02 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by Red Lightning View Post
Thanks for the quick reply!

I'm leaning towards a used engine also.

No reason two feel dumb, most engines these days are interference due to every manufacturer trying to squeeze efficiency and horsepower from every corner they can find it. I was just wanting confirmation because this engine spins like the spark plugs are missing.
Just a question, do you need to lock the VVL open to get a reliable compression check?
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      05-10-2018, 12:06 PM   #5
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I'm 99.9% sure the serpentine belt has nothing to do with timing. The worst thing that can happen from shredding a belt is that it gets sucked in the front main seal and plugs the oil pump pickup, then seizing the engine. If you really think there was valve/piston contact just scope the cylinders.
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      05-10-2018, 06:55 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by weehe126 View Post
I'm 99.9% sure the serpentine belt has nothing to do with timing. The worst thing that can happen from shredding a belt is that it gets sucked in the front main seal and plugs the oil pump pickup, then seizing the engine. If you really think there was valve/piston contact just scope the cylinders.
it's completely possible that it get's screwed up when the serpentine belt gets sucked into the front cover where the timing stuff lives.

OP, it's time to pull the pan at the very least, but I'm afraid that you're going to find a bunch of belt material all throughout the motor.

It's a well known issue, bummer that your friend didn't bring it to you to have the OFHG replaced before it caused belt failure. This is a completely preventable situation and one that everyone knows about by now.
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      05-11-2018, 02:14 AM   #7
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Weird that it spins like no compression given the belt ingestion into the crankcase.

I’d say pull the pan and have a look see. If it’s more than just cleaning the old belt out then id just buy a used motor for $1k and start over. Car-part.com
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      05-11-2018, 02:38 PM   #8
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Ok this got me confused. Bmw uses metallic chains for timing. The serpentine belt is not related to timing, it only drives alternator and power steering, it has a tensionner that breaks
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      05-11-2018, 04:45 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eliase90 View Post
Ok this got me confused. Bmw uses metallic chains for timing. The serpentine belt is not related to timing, it only drives alternator and power steering, it has a tensionner that breaks
The belt makes its way past/through the front crank oil seal and into the timing components which are behind that seal.
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      05-12-2018, 12:19 AM   #10
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So i did a little research and i can sum it up :
The serpentine belt is not related to timing. It is driven by the crank pulley to drive the peripheral components.
Once the belt breaks it can be sucked into the internals of the engine (crank shaft) how?
There is an oil seal between the crank shaft and the front pulley, since the pulley is very close to the block, once the belt breaks it can shred this seal and it would be sucked into the oil pan and creates an oil leak.
So you have to remove the oil pan to check this seal if the car leaking oil. Also radiator fan should be checked and all the pulleys.
The cause of the belt to break can be either the belt is old/worn or a pulley or the belt tensioner is bad (its spring may come loose with time or the bolt holding it to the block breaks) or an oil leak from the oil filter gasket (it leaks hot oil on the belt and worn it)
Good luck
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      05-12-2018, 01:10 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rjahl View Post
Just a question, do you need to lock the VVL open to get a reliable compression check?

I dont think so, because the compression occurs when the valves are closed -> no lift. The tool (pressure gauge) will hold the maximum pressure when you crank for 4 cycles and should be the same pressure for all cylinders
I think you only need to disconnect fuel pump (fuse/relay) and disconnect coil packs, remove the plug and put the tool and cranck for each cylinder
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      05-12-2018, 08:10 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elias_E90 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by rjahl View Post
Just a question, do you need to lock the VVL open to get a reliable compression check?

I dont think so, because the compression occurs when the valves are closed -> no lift. The tool (pressure gauge) will hold the maximum pressure when you crank for 4 cycles and should be the same pressure for all cylinders
I think you only need to disconnect fuel pump (fuse/relay) and disconnect coil packs, remove the plug and put the tool and cranck for each cylinder
If you are cranking with the ignition key, ok perhaps the intake valves probably lift enough to get good cylinder filling. I've never logged the Valvetronic motor during the start.

If you are bumping the starter only, I'm not sure the intake valve will open far enough to allow proper cylinder filling. No air in, no compression pressure.

Just like the old days when you had to open the throttle or throttle body to perform a compression test.

Have you done a compression test on a valvetronic motor? I'm curious to hear from some one who has.
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      05-12-2018, 02:29 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rjahl View Post
If you are cranking with the ignition key, ok perhaps the intake valves probably lift enough to get good cylinder filling. I've never logged the Valvetronic motor during the start.

If you are bumping the starter only, I'm not sure the intake valve will open far enough to allow proper cylinder filling. No air in, no compression pressure.

Just like the old days when you had to open the throttle or throttle body to perform a compression test.

Have you done a compression test on a valvetronic motor? I'm curious to hear from some one who has.
No i have never done it on a valve tronic system. I ll try to search for the minimum lift, maybe there will always be minimal lift (not zero)
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      05-12-2018, 04:32 PM   #14
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Minimum physical (mechanical) lift is 0.18 mm.
Idle lift is 0.8mm. Try logging the ess and valve tronic motor.. i think while cranking the lift should be at 0.8mm at least (at least the idle) in order to start the car. To lock it, you can turn the vt motor manually using the allen key and disconnect its power (never tried it) but it should hold, it will create loads of faults though. Another idea i have had is to disconnect the ess while cranking : i have read in multiple threads that if you disconnect ess the ecu will put the valve tronic on full lift and it will use the tb to estimate load. These are all ideas, never had to try any so far.

You may need to remove the tb to imitate a fully opend tb as it is electric
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Last edited by Elias_E90; 05-12-2018 at 04:53 PM..
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      05-12-2018, 07:53 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elias_E90 View Post
So i did a little research and i can sum it up :
The serpentine belt is not related to timing. It is driven by the crank pulley to drive the peripheral components.
Once the belt breaks it can be sucked into the internals of the engine (crank shaft) how?
There is an oil seal between the crank shaft and the front pulley, since the pulley is very close to the block, once the belt breaks it can shred this seal and it would be sucked into the oil pan and creates an oil leak.
So you have to remove the oil pan to check this seal if the car leaking oil. Also radiator fan should be checked and all the pulleys.
The cause of the belt to break can be either the belt is old/worn or a pulley or the belt tensioner is bad (its spring may come loose with time or the bolt holding it to the block breaks) or an oil leak from the oil filter gasket (it leaks hot oil on the belt and worn it)
Good luck

you just summed up absolutely nothing.
when the belt material gets sucked in past the front crank seal where do you think it ends up? In the timing chain and in the timing cover.
https://************/y834877u

look for yourself.

edit:
screw this forums nanny blocking of sharing information. That's a tiny url link.
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      05-13-2018, 02:55 AM   #16
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Thank you for your remark nsjames.
My point is the seprentine belt is independant from timing, it could break without being sucked..
Excuse my english
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      05-14-2018, 11:32 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elias_E90 View Post
Thank you for your remark nsjames.
My point is the seprentine belt is independant from timing, it could break without being sucked..
Excuse my english
Quote:
I removed the balancer and found the belt debris packed behind the balancer and the front seal pushed in toward the block. At this point I'm nearly certain it's out of time.
OP has already verified that the belt material was sucked into the timing cover.
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      05-18-2018, 01:12 PM   #18
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99% sure this is an interference engine, almost every engine now a days is, to squeeze as much power out of it as possible while complying with emissions. The compression test showed no compression, right? If you put some oil in the cylinders and the compression bumps up you know its piston rings and if it doesn't change the problem is in the valves.
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      08-03-2018, 03:24 AM   #19
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An update. In the middle of engine replacement. Now. Salvage yard engine was purchased for $1,100.00 stripped salvage yard engine down to a long block and scrubbed, pressure washed, scrubbed more, rinse, and repeat until it was spotless. Resealed oil pan, oil filter, valve cover, and oil filter housing gasket. New gaskets at both manifolds also.

The serpentine belt was throughout the timing assembly from crank to camshaft. Pieces of belt were spread throughout the oil pan also. Catastrophic damage. Ending compression was zero.

Replacement engine is ready to go back in the engine bay. That’s tonight’s job.

In case anyone was curious, the dealership wants $14,450.00 for a long block and parts necessary for install. That quote was from the parts counter and didn’t include install!!!

Last edited by Red Lightning; 08-03-2018 at 03:27 AM.. Reason: Spelling
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      08-03-2018, 08:31 AM   #20
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So the engine failure/no compression was due to the belt getting between the timing chain and sprocket and throwing the timing off? If you get a chance to take a few pics it would be great.

Last edited by cwlo; 08-03-2018 at 08:32 AM.. Reason: added
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      08-07-2018, 11:24 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cwlo View Post
So the engine failure/no compression was due to the belt getting between the timing chain and sprocket and throwing the timing off? If you get a chance to take a few pics it would be great.
Here's the most telling photo, especially for anyone who thinks this can't happen. That's the remnants of the serpentine belt hanging in the timing chain after I removed the pan while the engine was hanging from my engine crane. The belt wraps around the crankshaft pulley and gets caught behind the pulley. The engine doesn't actually 'suck' the belt inside, After enough belt gets trapped behind the pulley, it is pushed through the front crankshaft seal by the rotation of the crankshaft, then into the timing assembly and bad things happen.
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      08-07-2018, 11:35 AM   #22
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Here's the progress to date:

A salvage yard engine with 30 day warranty.
Pressure wash replacement engine because it's an oily mess too (Surprise)
A brand new Serpentine Belt. (LOL)
Transferred and resealed Oil Pan.
Transferred and resealed Valve Cover.
New Exhaust Manifold Gaskets.
New Intake Manifold Gaskets.
New Oil Filter Housing Gasket.

Engine installed and operational - Not even a Check Engine Light on startup.
On the second start, I'm getting CEL and codes for Downstream O2 sensor Heater circuit (bank 2) and Intake camshaft retarded. P0012 and P0056. O2 sensor code is usually solved by a new sensor, not a big deal. However, I am concerned about the Intake Cam Code. I have a good scanner for OBD 2 on most cars, but it doesn't have BMW factory possibility. I just put about 30 miles on it this morning and performance is good, everything seems as it should be except for the CEL being on.

Now I have research to do, looks like. I'm wondering if the camshaft actuator motor may be stuck or defect?
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