[toicy4ya]

Sup guys,

Due to the pandemic I have been working from home. As a result, my car has been sitting in my garage for nearly two months. I have been using my wife's car to get to and from when necessary. When I try to turn it on it cranks but won't start. I noticed my gas tank was near empty. It had about a 27 mile range left in the tank. I added 5 gallons, so it is a little over a quarter tank. However, it still won't start. It only cranks. Any ideas what might be causing this? I've owned the car for about 8-9 yrs and never experienced this before. Btw, it has a new AutoCraft Gold battery. Not sure if this helps. Any feedback would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

[gbalthrop]

Originally Posted by toicy4ya

... my car has been sitting in my garage for nearly two months... When I try to turn it on it cranks but won't start...

QUESTIONS:
1) Do you have, or have access to, ANY Scan Tool or Diagnostic Software, and if so, WHAT Brand/Model?

2) Do you have a Multimeter to read Voltage to test components?

3) Can you follow a wiring diagram, such as this one which shows the Fuses and DME (Engine Control Module) powered by the "DME Relay", K6300 in this TIS Schematic:
https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/e...-fault/i4RGgA7

4) Someone who has INPA (BMW Factory-Level Software, with FREE Download) could quickly determine generally WHY the engine will NOT fire when cranked by the starter, VIA Fault Codes saved in DME Module Memory and by performing tests of Voltage at various "Terminals" to determine if things like the DME Relay or the Ignition relay are operating properly. Have you had a successful relationship with ANY BMW Independent shop in your area? Can you find anyone who will come to YOU in the COVID-19 crisis, and use INPA/ISTA installed on a laptop to diagnose your problem?

5) Can you at least get a cheap (~ $35) Scan Tool, and a multimeter ($6 from HFT)? If you are "Handy" at all, we can walk you through how to do initial basic tests. Here are examples of EACH. I have EACH and can vouch for their value. I ALSO use INPA, but you need to spend a NUMBER of hours to learn how to use that, even with guidance.:
https://www.amazon.com/Autel-AutoLin...NsaWNrPXRydWU=
https://www.harborfreight.com/7-func...g_q=multimeter

It is likely that there are one or more Fault Codes saved in your car's DME, and/or Freeze Frame Data (Snapshot of system conditions such as Terminal/ Relay Voltage) which will give clues to what to test next using a multimeter. Your issue is almost certainly a "Power Supply" issue where the DME, Coils, Injectors, or Sensors are NOT getting voltage due to a wiring or relay fault, corroded connector pins/ sockets, or a "signal" issue where a Sensor such as the Crankshaft Position Sensor, or one of the Camshaft Position Sensors, is NOT providing a signal to the DME so it can time ignition & injector pulse, due to a wiring fault or failed sensor.

The LAST thing you want to do is start "throwing parts at it" just because someone says: "I had that exact same issue and I replaced x, y, z -- zzz."

If you don't have the time for, or interest in, ANY DIY, then find a reliable Indy. However, be advised that you WILL be taken advantage of if you don't understand the basic concepts of how systems work, and how to diagnose them.

George

[toicy4ya]

Hey gbalthrop,

I appreciate your feedback. My response to your questions are below.

1) I have the carly BMW app which has been helpful in the past.

2) I have a basic multimeter and test light.

3) I am not familiar with that wiring diagram.

4) Unfortunately, I recently moved to Tampa Fl. and have not established any relationships with any Indy shops since my car hasn't had any issues since moving here.

5) Can I use the carly app in lieu of a scan tool? If I'm not mistaken I believe it performs the same function. I have a multimeter similar to the one in your link.

When I ran Carly and another app I have it did not pull any codes related to the issue i am having with the car cranking and not starting but can share the codes if you like. Im pretty familiar with my car and am willing to perform test that are necessary to diagnose the issue.

[gbalthrop]

Originally Posted by toicy4ya

...
1) I have the carly BMW app which has been helpful in the past.
2) I have a basic multimeter and test light.
3) I am not familiar with that wiring diagram. [Can you "follow it" to understand that the DME Relay, K6300 is activated by a ground signal from the DME, Pin #13 of DME Connector X60005, causing the relay "electromagnet" to close the relay contacts, and power the 4 fuses F01 through F04, and the DME Module itself?]
...
5) Can I use the carly app in lieu of a scan tool? If I'm not mistaken I believe it performs the same function. I have a multimeter similar to the one in your link. [I have never used Carly myself, but have seen others attach photos of Carly Screens, and it appears capable of reading ANY fault codes saved in ANY of the ~ 20 Control Modules in your vehicle]

When I ran Carly and another app I have it did not pull any codes related to the issue i am having with the car cranking and not starting but can share the codes if you like. Im pretty familiar with my car and am willing to perform test that are necessary to diagnose the issue.

Please use Carly AND any other scan tool you have available to:
1) Read Fault Codes in ALL Modules; take photo(s) of Carly screens showing those codes and attach here as jpg files; OR provide Fault Codes & Text;
2) Read Fault Codes in the DME (Engine Control Module), and EKP (Fuel Pump Module). Provide photos of screen or codes themselves;
3) Provide ANY Freeze Frame Data Carly or any other Scan Tool can read, particularly anything that shows Terminal 87 or Terminal 15 Voltage; Provide that data here;
4) If Carly or any Scan Tool available can read Power Supply Voltage within the DME, or to any Sensor or Component controlled by the DME, please provide that information.

If you need information about HOW to access Fuses F01 through F04, in the E-Box under the cover you will see after removing the Microfilter Housings, let us know and we can provide TIS Online Manual links to procedure & "Installation Location" diagrams for components.

Seeing WHERE K6300 is located (also in E-box) and where the fuses are will allow you to test with Multimeter, and also examine the fuses to see if any are blown. ALL of that CAN be done without INPA, Carly, or anything else, but ANY diagnostics quickly available will speed the testing.

George

[toicy4ya]

Hey George,

Thank you for taking the time and effort to help me with my issue. I will try my best to answer all of your questions.

1) The following are all the screenshots I could pull from the Carly and OBD Fusion app I have. My apologies for the large pic size.

Carly App













OBD Fusion App











2) Unfortunately I am not certain how to pull the fault codes from the DME or EKP specifically. If you can share with me how to accomplish this using Carly I will give it a shot.

3) I don’t know how to get the freeze data frame from terminals 87 & 15 voltage.

I am able to access the E-Box. Please confirm if the following are fuses F01-F05? If so, I did test each fuse using a test light and all fuses appear good. However, please note I had to test the fuses with the ignition in position II. Otherwise my test light would not get a reading.



Can you please confirm where K6000 is located?

I did check fuse #40 behind the glove box using a test light. The fuse looked good. Not sure if there are others I need to check under there.



George I also wanted to mention, when I replaced my battery there was a spark when trying to remove the power distribution box. Not certain if this is at all related but I know how electrically sensitive BMW's can be so I figured i'd mention it.

Thanks Again

[gbalthrop]

Originally Posted by toicy4ya

... Unfortunately I am not certain how to pull the fault codes from the DME or EKP specifically. If you can share with me how to accomplish this using Carly I will give it a shot... Can you please confirm where K6000 is located?
I did check fuse #40 behind the glove box using a test light. The fuse looked good. Not sure if there are others I need to check under there... I also wanted to mention, when I replaced my battery there was a spark when trying to remove the power distribution box. Not certain if this is at all related but I know how electrically sensitive BMW's can be so I figured i'd mention it. [AFAIK, BMW's use the SAME electrons, batteries, etc. as ANY other brand of vehicle. I know of no reason BMW's are MORE "electrically sensitive" than any other brand ]

QUESTIONS:
1) Did you CLEAR or Delete Fault Codes using Carly BEFORE you Scanned for Fault Codes using OBD Fusion (at 9:22)?
2) Did you try to START Engine between the time you cleared codes and 9:22 when OBD Fusion showed NO codes?
3) Have you used EITHER Carly/OBD Fusion to read codes AFTER clearing codes and attempting to start? If so, what codes do you NOW have (check with BOTH apps BEFORE Clearing codes.
4) Please measure battery voltage at the Jumpstart Terminals under the hood, BEFORE attempting to start engine. What is that voltage?
5) WHAT is your vehicle's current Odometer reading? Is it 177952 km = 110574 Miles?
6) WHEN did you replace the battery? Was it BEFORE the "Crank, No Start" issue, or AFTER the engine would NOT fire?
7) Did you disconnect the Negative Battery Terminal (remove it from (-) battery post) BEFORE the spark occurred when removing Rear Power Distribution Panel? See this TIS Procedure:
https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/e...minals/GVOcdr2
8) Do systems such as A/C Control Panel & Blower, powered by Terminal 30G Relay (IO1068 in schematic) work when you turn Ignition ON by pressing START WITHOUT pressing Brake Pedal/Clutch? See this F40 (Fuel Pump Supply) TIS wiring diagram & Note 30G relay must be activated by CAS Module to supply power to F40:
https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/e...0-fuse/siZwoFo
9) Can you hear Fuel Pump prime when you open the door to unlocked vehicle? Can you hear Fuel Pump running when you turn Ignition ON?
10) Do I understand correctly that you were able to test for voltage (at least test light) at Fuse Sockets F01 through F04, and EACH socket had voltage supplied by DME relay to that fuse, with Ignition ON? If so, that is as it SHOULD be. If NOT voltage at ALL FOUR of those fuse sockets (ONE of the two spade sockets for Each Fuse) please advise.

GRATUITOUS CARLY RANT:
Does "Carly" actually provide any objective information YOU can understand???
"Health Status" = "Very Bad"
"Engine" "Very Bad" "002DED" "Voltage cl.87: 0.00 V" (Set 1), 0.00 V (Set 2), 11.48 V (Set 3)

Pardon my rant about Carly, but I have NEVER seen anyone post information retrieved by Carly who actually UNDERSTANDS the "faux tech BS" (badly translated) that Carly screens show. It's NOT YOUR FAULT, it's the LACK of any proper explanation of the data, or possibly lack of understanding of automotive systems by the German computer geeks behind Carly, that is the issue. "cl.87" SHOULD be translated as KL.87 or TERMINAL 87, which is pin 87 of a relay, where you get Voltage when the Relay Electromagnet is activated and the relay contacts close, connecting Pin 30 (Terminal 30 or Battery Voltage) with Pin 87 (Terminal 87), providing Battery Voltage at Pin/ Terminal 87. The German word Klemmen (German abbreviation KL) means terminal. Klemmenspannung means Terminal Voltage. In our E9x BMW's, "Terminal 87" has voltage when the DME Relay is activated. Here endeth the rant.

Carly appears to do a decent job of displaying Fault Codes in ALL Modules, which is the FIRST Step in Diagnostics. Apparently you got the more detailed information on the codes by selecting the ">" to the right of each of the three systems with issues, so with Carly, that would appear to be HOW you would "connect to that Module". Since there was NO Fault in the EKP Module, unless Carly can read/display Fuel Pump "Parameters" of live data, and/or "Activate" the Fuel Pump to test it as BMW Software such as INPA can do, you just have to listen for it running, and test electrically the "old-school" way. INPA has the capability of reading such Fuel Pump parameters as Voltage, Speed & Temperature, as well as being able to "Activate" the pump and cause it to run for test purposes, even with engine OFF. That means your vehicle's Control modules have that capability, and the question becomes: Does your Scan Tool/ Software have the capability to properly "query" the car's Modules and display the information.

So as best I can understand Carly "Faux Tech", your DME Memory, at "9:02" on the morning/ evening/ day you saw that data, contained record of THREE (3) instances of "Quiescent Current" or Excessive Battery Drain, all 3 occurring at the same Odometer reading, and the third occurring with the DME Relay active and Terminal 87 showing 11.47 V (?) I put a question mark there because I do NOT understand HOW that could be the case. First of all, 11.47 V at Terminal 87 indicates such LOW battery charge that the Starter should NOT crank the engine (just click). Second, as I understand the DEFINITION of 2DED, it indicates excessive current draw or battery drain when the vehicle is in SLEEP Mode, which begins ~ 10 to 30 minutes after Ignition OFF. When Terminal 87 is active (Ignition ON and DME Relay active) the vehicle is NOT in sleep mode as I understand it. "Power management, closed-circuit protection" does NOT DEFINE a fault. At BEST, it describes a system (Power management in the DME) in which measurements of current flow from the battery are periodically made when the system is in "closed-circuit" or Sleep Mode.

Here are DEFINITIONS of 2DED from Bentley Manual, & BMW Fault Code Lookup with link to "Fault Information" sheet:
P160F | 2DED | Powermanagement No Load Current Error
2DED | DME: Power management, closed-circuit current violation | msv70
http://www.bmwfault.codes/XMLDiagVie...cAOAAxADAANAA=

NOTE: "Fault Information" provides:

"Standby current draw exceeds approved level. Standby current is calculated only when ISD-BSD communications are not present - vehicle in sleep mode."

Excessive current draw when vehicle is in Sleep Mode can run your battery down, but it CAN'T prevent your engine from firing when cranked by the starter, so that "VERY BAD" 2DED code (sounds "Trumpian" ;-) is of NO direct help. IF there were something wrong with the IBS (Intelligent Battery Sensor) or BSD Communications, there are separate codes which would be in the DME for those things.

The DSC & CID errors would NOT prevent the engine from starting, and appear to be the result of interruption of Power from Battery, so we have NO Fault Codes from Carly that offer any indication of reason for "Crank, No Start".

Your vehicle's DME is capable of providing "Terminal 87" Voltage as a "Parameter" or Live Data for display by a proper Scan Tool/ Software, to allow you to SEE that Value/ Voltage in "Real Time" and determine if the DME Relay is activating when Ignition is turned on (WITHOUT tearing things apart to measure voltage in the E-box ;-). INPA users would simply connect laptop to OBD II Socket, turn on INPA & select DME > F6 > F2 > F1, and see the Voltage Value displayed, with a bar graph having the Label: "Klemme 87/Versorgung DME" which means "Terminal 87 / DME Supply". If whatever "documentation" or "Manual" Carly provides does NOT tell you HOW it can display that, shame on Carly.

I realize that Carly rants "are NOT helpful" in solving your problem, but I just wanted you to get an idea of "What is Possible" with other Software that was created by Automotive Engineers, for use at the BMW Factory (NO personal profit motive or sales HYPE ;-)

If you will answer the additional questions above, I'll try to simply suggest "next steps" you can do with the tools available to YOU, so you can try to identify the problem. The GENERAL next steps at this point are:
1) make sure we know what Fault Codes appear when you try to Start vehicle;
2) if NO codes (particularly codes in DME and/or EKP) then WHAT can prevent fuel delivery, Spark or Injector Function WITHOUT causing a fault code. So far the fuel pump or its circuit are the primary "suspects", but let's make sure we have ALL the Diagnostic information EITHER of your Scan Tools can provide BEFORE we test Pump & Power supply to Pump.

George

[toicy4ya]

Hey George,

Thank you for your feedback and suggestions. I am happy to report that I was able to start the car an hour ago. I will explain the steps I took to get there but first let me answer your questions as they may be beneficial for the next person that might run into the same problems.

1) No, I scanned the car using Carly and OBD Fusion without clearing the codes.

2) No, I did not try to start the engine. I scanned the car using OBD Fusion immediately after scanning it using Carly.

3) No, I dont believe I cleared any codes.

4) Please let me know if this is still necessary considering the vehicle is now starting?

5) The odometer is at 110574 miles.

6) I replaced the battery AFTER having the "Crank no start issue". Please note, when I turned in my core battery, the battery was a bit swollen. This may have been my fault as I keep charging and reconditioning the battery using a CTek Battery Charger. After a while I noticed it would not hold a charge.

7) No, I don't believe I disconnected the negative battery cable before the spark occurred when removing the rear power distribution panel. This was my oversight. I should have removed the negative battery cable first.

8) Yes, systems such as A/C Control panel and blower worked at the time I had the "Crank no start issue".

9) It's weird, initially I did but after installing the new battery I could no longer hear it. I know, weird!

10) Yes, that is correct. I was able to test the voltage using a test light at Fuse Sockets F01 through F04, and EACH socket had voltage with the ignition ON.

I can understand your reservations with Carly and while I do not use it as an end all be all tool, I do use it to try and gear me in the right direction. After which, I begin my research online to find additional guidance from this forum, youtube as well as other sites.

The following are the steps I performed that lead to the car starting. Please bare with me as I am no mechanic. Some of the steps may have been redundant or unnecessary but I wanted to ensure I at least tried.

I removed the following relay which I believe is the DME or Fuel Pump Relay, please correct me if I am wrong. I tested the relay using a multimeter and it appeared good.


I reinstalled the relay. The car cranked but wouldn't start. I remember watching a youtube clip from a guy that had the same symptoms. He recommended removing the MAF sensor and try starting the car. I removed the MAF sensor but again the car would crank but wouldn't start. I reconnected the MAF sensor.

In further researching, I came across another person that had the same symptoms with his car. He recommended disconnecting the IBS sensor that is connected to the negative battery terminal. I disconnected the IBS sensor and tried turning on the car. The car started up, however it had a really rough idle at first and there was a knocking sound coming from the engine. I let the engine idle for a while. There was a little smoke dissipating from the exhaust pipes. After a couple of minutes the knocking and exhaust smoke eventually subsided. I reved the engine and all sounded well. I scanned the vehicle using carly and came up with a issue 002E97 Generator. I cleared the code and scanned the vehicle again and came up with no issues/codes.

I guess my question now is, could this all have stemmed from a car sitting for nearly two months with a poor battery and in the transition of installing a new battery it developed a couple of bugs? Or could it be that my IBS is bad? But if the IBS is bad I would think it would generate a code?

What are your thoughts?

Thanks in advance.

[gbalthrop]

Originally Posted by toicy4ya

... I am happy to report that I was able to start the car an hour ago. [ ]...I dont believe I cleared any codes... when I turned in my core battery, the battery was a bit swollen [possible "Over-voltage from Alternator, see below]... systems such as A/C Control panel and blower worked at the time I had the "Crank no start issue". It's weird, initially I did [hear the fuel pump] but after installing the new battery I could no longer hear it... I was able to test the voltage using a test light at Fuse Sockets F01 through F04, and EACH socket had voltage with the ignition ON. [DME Relay was working]...

I disconnected the IBS sensor and tried turning on the car. The car started up, however it had a really rough idle at first and there was a knocking sound coming from the engine. I let the engine idle for a while. There was a little smoke dissipating from the exhaust pipes. After a couple of minutes the knocking and exhaust smoke eventually subsided. I reved the engine and all sounded well. I scanned the vehicle using carly and came up with a issue 002E97 Generator. I cleared the code and scanned the vehicle again and came up with no issues/codes.

I guess my question now is, could this all have stemmed from a car sitting for nearly two months with a poor battery and in the transition of installing a new battery it developed a couple of bugs? Or could it be that my IBS is bad? But if the IBS is bad I would think it would generate a code?

QUESTIONS:
1) There are TWO wires that go to the IBS -- WHICH one did you disconnect: (a) the one that attaches to the Chassis Harness (BSD bus connector) ABOVE the (-) battery post, or the larger connector that snaps into the Rear Power Distribution Panel that provides a battery voltage signal to the IBS? See attached photo.

2) Since the car started OK with that disconnected, the only way I know to determine if THAT was the cause of NOT firing when cranked is to reconnect it and test. Have you tried that? Perhaps best if you FIRST post a photo of WHICH wire you disconnected and indicate WHERE exactly it was connected, so nothing gets reconnected improperly. The Red wire in black sheath (at least on mine ;-) at the Power Distribution Panel SHOULD have been disconnected when the battery was removed, and RE-connected when replacement battery installed.

3) Did you hear any fuel pump sounds after you disconnected the IBS wire?

I have NO idea why disconnecting the IBS wire would allow the engine to run, UNLESS there were some fault in the IBS, OR the way it was connected, that somehow affected DME function. The IBS and the BSD bus are NOT supposed to have anything to do with the Fuel Pump operation or activation as far as I can tell from the wiring diagrams, but since the Fuel Pump operation is controlled by the DME via the EKP Module, I suppose there MAY be a connection.

As you indicate, there are reports on the Forums of people getting the engine to start by disconnecting the IBS, but I don't recall ever seeing a logical explanation of WHY that happens, OTHER than the assumption that there was something wrong with the IBS. Bentley Manual states that disconnecting the IBS Connector can allow the Starter to Crank the engine in a "NO CRANK, No Start" situation, but your Starter Cranked (Bentley 003-6, pdf p.15)
Bentley also states at 121-6, pdf p.237:

IBS diagnosis
A fault code is stored in the ECM when the IBS is defective. The ECM boosts idle speed in order to sufficiently charge the battery. The IBS can only be diagnosed through the ECM. The self-diagnosis function checks the voltage, current, temperature, terminal 15 wake up signal as well as system errors in the IBS.

So either Bentley is incorrect, or perhaps if the IBS is NOT connected via the Red wire to the Power Distribution Panel, so it gets a B+ battery voltage signal, the DME can't function(?) You may help us sort this mystery by attaching some photos and after we determine WHERE it should be connected, testing for "Crank, No Start" with IBS properly connected (BOTH connectors ;-)

I attach a photo of my IBS wiring with brace disconnected. The smaller blue Connector ABOVE (-) battery post is Chassis connector, and the Larger, lighter color in brighter light, connector on Left of photo is B+ Connector with single Red wire in Black sheath.

Thanks for sharing your "weird" situation,
George

[mecheng77]

I had a mysterious no start, and the next day it started no problem. My battery was healthy.
I changed the two blue relays in the fuse area even though they tested okay because sometimes relays stick but I don't know if that was the cause

[toicy4ya]

George,

1) I disconnected the blue one in the snapshot below. The arrow points to where I disconnected it from. I believe it is the one that attaches to the Chassis Harness (BSD bus connector) ABOVE the (-) battery post. Please correct me if I am wrong?


2) Yes, after the car started I let it idle for about 5-10 minutes. After which, I shut if off. I reconnected the IBS and started the car up again. The car started up normally without hesitation.

3) To be quite honest with you, I wasn't listening for the fuel pump. I just tried it on a fluke. I disconnected the IBS and started it up.

I started the car this morning and it fired right up with no hesitation. After clearing the codes from Carly yesterday, I decided to run a scan again this morning while the car was on and got the following reading. Any idea why I might be getting this? Please note, I have not driven the car yet. I simply have been turning it on and off in the garage. Hopefully today I will take it for a short drive around the neighborhood.





On a separate note, I noticed the wire in the snapshot below was not connected. Not sure what this wire is or what it leads to. I noticed it when I initially took out the battery to replace it. It was not connected. I think I read somewhere that this wire is used when shipping the car to keep the battery charged. However, I am not sure f this is true.

[mk1962]

Hey there, I have an exact the same scenario - car was sitting under a carport for 3 months, now - cranks, but won't start...
Air - check
Fuel pump/pressure - check
Fuses - check
Spark - check
MAF- check
I don't have IBS cable connector on negative cable.
Friend brought his fancy $1000 Autel MaxiSys MS906BT and we ran full scan - no codes!
At first, I was blaming an old tired battery, but after replacing it with new OEM from dealer - no luck...
Where should I start?...
Thank you in advance!