[meyergru]

Originally Posted by Erregend

The tech bulletin did not come out until April. When did V81 show up and when did they start shipping with 29.2?

Source of your info? I can't find anything definitive on TIS site but would like to find it. Any easy way to identify if a car has V80 vs V81 without BMW testset?

At least the hardware version can be seen in the ETK database. If you know the VIN, you can see which MSD was employed. Most cars from produtcion date 3/08 on have it. As far as I know this hardware was made in order to fight tunes. The corresponding software v29.2 was released around the same time and did this, too. So we all assume all cars from a certain production date on had MSD81 and v29.2 at minimum.

Do you know otherwise?

[clivem2]

I posted last week about my failing to get a promised update from 30.0.2 to 31.1. I held off posting other thoughts as I wanted more time to check them.

I suspect the garage reset my throttle adaptation.

Previously at 1,500 or 2,000 rpm (3rd/4th gear MT) the car would accelerate at a "medium" rate for 300 to 400 revs and then boost would some in with a typical turbo rush.

Now the boost comes in a much more linear fashion, a consistent build over 300 or 400 revs.

I feel that below 3,000 rpm the torque is not the full 300lb/ft, over 3,000 is better. Very, very subjective, maybe 220lb/ft at lower revs?

I don't get really bad performance, ie I can't imagine I'd be blown off by a Smart Car.

I have not driven a pre-29.2 car. It sounds like these are great beasts, my impression is that my car is not such a beast.

I wonder if cars built with 29.2 onwards have slightly different hardware, sure MDS80 vs MDS81 but maybe there are other subtle differences? Some people (like me) may have a engines that aren't as responsive as they should be but others seem to have much worse issues. Are there some variables we've missed?

[iScream]

Originally Posted by quattr0

I have a 335i (3 days old) steptronic with paddle shifter built 03/08. Coming from a WRX so I *should* know what a turbo lag means. I do not experience any lag from 1500rpm and up as described in all the posts in here. I mean while I'm at 1500rpm range and in D mode, i hit the gas and it goes instantly.

Since you all mentioned this issue happens to both Automatic and Manual, thought I would chime in.

A couple of answers:

First, D mode is useless for the purposes of this thread. You need to operate the car in M mode. So, anything you've determined to this point in D mode can be thrown out.

Secondly, as has already been mentioned, it's possible your car has neither v81 nor 29.2. We believe that v29.2 was released some time in LATE March, which means you could have missed it.

[Erregend]

I wonder if any of the problems (especially those who think the "lag" appeared
without a change in their Progman) may be caused by this? Worth checking!

http://www.bmwtis.com/tsb/bulletins/...p/B111407g.htm

[mistermojorizin]

where are these vacum hoses located in the engine?

[newbieone]

Originally Posted by Christos

Interesting, casue my dealer said they can't tell the program from reading the key. He said they have to hook it up to the computer via the obd connection.

same answer from the dealer here with reading the version from the FOB.

plant integration is probably the original software installed when they built it (?)

[quattr0]

Originally Posted by Erregend

I wonder if any of the problems (especially those who think the "lag" appeared
without a change in their Progman) may be caused by this? Worth checking!

http://www.bmwtis.com/tsb/bulletins/...p/B111407g.htm

Very interesting! Thanks Tom.

[767jetz]

Originally Posted by midlife

his car production date indicates he definitely has v81 with 29.2 or later software.

he says he has no lag... if this is true his car is probably 1 in a couple hundred thousand that does not have lag

After following this thread and the lag issue from the beginning I think it's time to jump in. My 08 335xi sedan was built in April and delivered on May 2nd in Munich. So it is safe to say that my car has v81 with progman 29.2 or later. My car has no lag whatsoever. The car has steptronic, and in manual mode, in any gear from 1800 when the torque converter locks up all the way through the power band there is nothing but linear acceleration and torque.

And let me say that I have years of experience building and racing various cars both on the drag strip and the road courses. I've autocrossed everything from Miata's to Mustang's to WRX's to BMW's to Supra's (turbos) to Integra's with several class championships under my belt. So I am no rookie or stranger to turbo dynamics.

My theory is that post-29.2 works differently with v81 cars than v80 cars. Perhaps there were hardware changes to the wastegates eliminating the need to electronically hold them open. All I know is that I have none of the lag described by many on this thread.

[shaddai]

Originally Posted by 767jetz

After following this thread and the lag issue from the beginning I think it's time to jump in. My 08 335xi sedan was built in April and delivered on May 2nd in Munich. So it is safe to say that my car has v81 with progman 29.2 or later. My car has no lag whatsoever. The car has steptronic, and in manual mode, in any gear from 1800 when the torque converter locks up all the way through the power band there is nothing but linear acceleration and torque.

And let me say that I have years of experience building and racing various cars both on the drag strip and the road courses. I've autocrossed everything from Miata's to Mustang's to WRX's to BMW's to Supra's (turbos) to Integra's with several class championships under my belt. So I am no rookie or stranger to turbo dynamics.

My theory is that post-29.2 works differently with v81 cars than v80 cars. Perhaps there were hardware changes to the wastegates eliminating the need to electronically hold them open. All I know is that I have none of the lag described by many on this thread.

My car was built in April as well, and while The Lag reacts differently at times (I've noticed it's worse when the ambient temperature is hot, especially when the AC is active), it's most definitely there. We do have three major differences though:

1. You have an xi. I have an i
2. You have a step. I have MT
3. You did ED. I didn't

1 and 2 have already been debunked by others in this thread. I don't know about 3... it's possible your car received some "special ED software blend" that those of us who either bought off the lot or ordered shipped to the dealer didn't get ... or as was suggested just a few posts earlier that your butt dyno is off . I'm not sure what to believe, but in reality all that matters is i was baited and switched by BMW and they delivered me a neutered car that plain as day does not meet (or exceed) their advertising.

[allan]

….built May 08 and my master mechanic is aware of the lag.

[Manboy]

Originally Posted by ezatnova

Wow Pavel, thanks for the big info. I don't know whether to shed a tear of joy that they have possibly officially maybe kind of taken their heads out of their asses, or shed a tear of sorrow that they may take forever to get a "fix"
out. Probably the latter. I could see something like the following happening.
-The engineers acknowledge the lag.
-They work on a sollution and come to a conclusion that hardware replacement/upgrade is the only real fix (which it IS).
-BMW's bean counters crunch the numbers on the costs incurred to issue the repair worldwide.
-Corporate looks at the numbers and squashes the whole thing since it would cost them too much to make all of the cars right again.
- An official bulletin gets issued out to dealers saying that the new performance of the car is "normal".- We owners seek the assistance of our Swedish contingency and use Swiss Army knives to sharpen the end of a stick and sit on it, to the pleasure of BMW.

Hopefully I'm wrong with the above scenario.

Anyway, Pavel, as was mentioned a few times above, if you can get ahold of that email from your dealer somehow, that'd be brilliant.

Nova,
I just wanted to let you know that my dealer have sent me a statement similar to the bolded in your post above.

So, now I have two email.
one from 3 weeks ago saying, there is a problem with your car and BMW AG are aware of It and working on a fix.

Latest email saying, there is no problem. This is how all 335i will from now on performe. BMW have amended the character of the turbos and the boost pressure. All new 2009 335i will behave like this.

To the latest email I replied:
That's all peachy but i ordered mine in Febuary, nobody mentioned to me that there will be changes made to my car in comparison to the demo i drove in Feb.


Basically, they are preparing for some owners to sue and have calculated that it will do them less financial harm then to rectify all cars worldwide.... Just like you predicted Nova... &

[Alpina_B3_Lux]

Originally Posted by 767jetz

After following this thread and the lag issue from the beginning I think it's time to jump in. My 08 335xi sedan was built in April and delivered on May 2nd in Munich. So it is safe to say that my car has v81 with progman 29.2 or later. My car has no lag whatsoever. The car has steptronic, and in manual mode, in any gear from 1800 when the torque converter locks up all the way through the power band there is nothing but linear acceleration and torque.

And let me say that I have years of experience building and racing various cars both on the drag strip and the road courses. I've autocrossed everything from Miata's to Mustang's to WRX's to BMW's to Supra's (turbos) to Integra's with several class championships under my belt. So I am no rookie or stranger to turbo dynamics.

My theory is that post-29.2 works differently with v81 cars than v80 cars. Perhaps there were hardware changes to the wastegates eliminating the need to electronically hold them open. All I know is that I have none of the lag described by many on this thread.

I think your theory is not completely unrealistic: One week ago there was a test of the new 335i (model 2009) in a German car magazine (called Powercar) and there was no mention of any lag or bad turbo response at all - the test drivers rather recommended the car (as in previous tests when the motor came out) for its immediate response in low revs and the big torque from around 1500 rpm on. To my knowledge there have been some (very minor) hardware modifications to the engines due to the recent LCI of the E90/E91, so that it's not improbable that BMW solved this problem for the new 335i but is hedging for the old ones with the bad progman.

I can only confirm that for myself once I get my new 335i, however (in April 2009). In any case it will be tuned more or less immediately...

Alpina_B3_Lux

[Christos]

My car is 10/07 build, I bought my E92 in March 2008 and at that time had the software updated because I had a Sirius radio installed. I am not sure what version was out then and I do not know what revision my car has now, but I do not THINK I have the dreaded lag. I think everyone is using the wrong word, LAG. I had many turbos in the past and turbo lag is either there or not. One does not have to guess at it. However, I do not believe in BMW's represented torque curve. My car has little pull until at least 2500- 3000 RPM's and when I compare it to the first 335i's I had driven back in 2007, my car definitely has less pull and responsiveness. I remember everyone saying what a beast the 335i was. So I when I got a 335i loaner in late 2007, I agreed, it was a beast. I even said to myself that I couldn’t get this car because I’d get into trouble with the Law or put myself in the hospital. But now with my 2008 E92, I would not say it’s a beast. Fast yes, but definitely toned down. It’s a very drivable car, no lag to me, but not the throw you back into the seat fast like the first 335i’s I had driven either. My take is that BMW did tone down the car for reliability concerns and that what we are experiencing as “Lag” will be the norm going forward.

[Cobu]

Originally Posted by Pavel

Nova,
I just wanted to let you know that my dealer have sent me a statement similar to the bolded in your post above.

So, now I have two email.
one from 3 weeks ago saying, there is a problem with your car and BMW AG are aware of It and working on a fix.

Latest email saying, there is no problem. This is how all 335i will from now on performe. BMW have amended the character of the turbos and the boost pressure. All new 2009 335i will behave like this.

To the latest email I replied:
That's all peachy but i ordered mine in Febuary, nobody mentioned to me that there will be changes made to my car in comparison to the demo i drove in Feb.


Basically, they are preparing for some owners to sue and have calculated that it will do them less financial harm then to rectify all cars worldwide.... Just like you predicted Nova... &

Splendid news Pavel - thanks for putting the rumors that BMW is ever going to fix this shit to rest. Now, on a more serious note: what is the status of our class action law suit?

I also, wonder if BMW has included NEGATIVE press and future lost sales in their calculations. After all, it looks like their sales to date are doing just swimmingly (link below)

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=316121

[ezatnova]

Pavel,
Thanks for that update. Good luck and hopefully they realize what idiots they are, flip flopping like that. As far as I'm concerned, I guess I have three choices:
- wait for Jim C to finally (if ever) put out Shark Edit and fix the damn car MYSELF
- sell my car and take the depreciation hit and get the new S5 next year, or the upcoming S4 (both with supercharged 6), or save up and get the C63.
- hope that something with a class action happens soon, if not to force our cars to be fixed, then to compensate us enough to go buy a proper car without taking such a financial hit as in scenario 2, above.


Anyway, weren't there two people or so on here who were getting V31.1 this week? What's the deal there?

[meyergru]

Originally Posted by Christos

I think everyone is using the wrong word, LAG. I had many turbos in the past and turbo lag is either there or not. One does not have to guess at it. However, I do not believe in BMW's represented torque curve. My car has little pull until at least 2500- 3000 RPM's and when

Once again: The car (at least mine with v30) has pull below 2500 RPM, but it takes a while to develop. You will get the wrong impression when in low gear, because by the time it develops thrust, it already has reached ~2500 RPM.

You cannot check for that with steptronic in AT or DS mode, since the push on the gas pedal will most likely make the car shift. Try this:

In 5th gear (steptronic: M5), cruise at ~35 mph (lugging the car and giving ~1500 RPM). Push the gas pedal 2/3 and leave it in that position. The car will accelerate and then, after ~1 second, will develop a second, bigger thrust. If you do this in high gear, it will have ~1800 RPM when the turbo power builds up.

So, in contradiction to what you may think, there IS power below 2500 RPM. The problem is dynamic, not static. This behaviour is a direct result of the wastegates being more open and pressure building up more slowly. We call that LAG. Period. It was not (or barely) noticeable before Progman v29.2 as the cars turbos were optimized for this and not for maximum power.

Even the dyno chart posted above (if it was correct) does not prove otherwise, as the RPM constantly changes through the measurement.

This should also be added to the FAQ as it has been discussed at least for the third time already.

[Christos]

Originally Posted by meyergru

Once again: The car (at least mine with v30) has pull below 2500 RPM, but it takes a while to develop. You will get the wrong impression when in low gear, because by the time it develops thrust, it already has reached ~2500 RPM.

You cannot check for that with steptronic in AT or DS mode, since the push on the gas pedal will most likely make the car shift. Try this:

In 5th gear (steptronic: M5), cruise at ~35 mph (lugging the car and giving ~1500 RPM). Push the gas pedal 2/3 and leave it in that position. The car will accelerate and then, after ~1 second, will develop a second, bigger thrust. If you do this in high gear, it will have ~1800 RPM when the turbo power builds up.

So, in contradiction to what you may think, there IS power below 2500 RPM. The problem is dynamic, not static. This behaviour is a direct result of the wastegates being more open and pressure building up more slowly. We call that LAG. Period. It was not (or barely) noticeable before Progman v29.2 as the cars turbos were optimized for this and not for maximum power.

Even the dyno chart posted above (if it was correct) does not prove otherwise, as the RPM constantly changes through the measurement.

This should also be added to the FAQ as it has been discussed at least for the third time already.

Thanks for the explanation, but it’s amazing you have to do all that to notice this so called LAG?? And who drives their car in 5th gear at 35 MPH?

Question: Is torque a function of RPM and gear selection or just RPM? I am not an expert by any means on automobiles, but I would think if max torque is spec'd at 1400 RPM's then it should be at that max level regardless of which gear you are in?

[meyergru]

Originally Posted by Christos

Thanks for the explanation, but it’s amazing you have to do all that to notice this so called LAG?? And who drives their car in 5th gear at 35 MPH?

Question: Is torque a function of RPM and gear selection or just RPM? I am not an expert by any means on automobiles, but I would think if max torque is spec'd at 1400 RPM's then it should be at that max level regardless of which gear you are in?

You don't have to do this. This is merely a procedure to show you that indeed the car still lives up to static torque and power specifications which have been given by BMW. This means, if you measure slowly enough, you'd see 400 Nm at 1400 RPM.

In real life, the situation is different. Since the torque (and thus: power) build up slowly now, you don't notice any power down low. Thus, the car feels less aggressive and seems to develop punch only at higher RPM. So, you have the power but can't make use of it.

This is really annoying, as the cars turbos have been optimized to have punch down low - matter of fact, the gained power over the 330i at high RPM is not that impressive. The main difference between these cars is (or better: was) torque at low RPM.

The problem is that neither the measurable torque curve nor 0-60 times would be impacted and thus, BMW can say: "Everything is up to specs.".

However, you said that LAG is the wrong word, and really, it is the most techically exact description for this problem one could think of.


About your second question: From a static standpoint, crank power is crank torque multiplied by RPM. This torque is transferred to the wheel through the gearbox. That is, the higher the gear the lower the Wheel Horse Power.

The reason for a much-too-high 5th gear in the procedure I described was to deliberately lower WHP in order to keep the RPM from rising too fast so you could see that there is power even under 2500 RPM.

[iScream]

Originally Posted by Christos

Thanks for the explanation, but it’s amazing you have to do all that to notice this so called LAG?? And who drives their car in 5th gear at 35 MPH?

Question: Is torque a function of RPM and gear selection or just RPM? I am not an expert by any means on automobiles, but I would think if max torque is spec'd at 1400 RPM's then it should be at that max level regardless of which gear you are in?

As I've mentioned multiple times here, it is very noticeable under normal driving circumstances in MT cars. If I am driving normally and shift at say 3500 RPM from 1st into 2nd, I then get dropped down into a no-power range for the first 1.5-2s of 2nd gear. It makes the throttle response seem jumpy and delayed.

There wouldn't be 108 pages of complaints and discussion if it only manifested in obscure situations.

AT drivers who always use DS mode can avoid much of the problem because DS mode likes to keep the car above 3k rpm. However, this is still not to say that DS mode post-29.2 is as good as DS mode pre-29.2, because it is not.

[dmboone25]

Originally Posted by ezatnova

Pavel,
Thanks for that update. Good luck and hopefully they realize what idiots they are, flip flopping like that. As far as I'm concerned, I guess I have three choices:
- wait for Jim C to finally (if ever) put out Shark Edit and fix the damn car MYSELF
- sell my car and take the depreciation hit and get the new S5 next year, or the upcoming S4 (both with supercharged 6), or save up and get the C63.
- hope that something with a class action happens soon, if not to force our cars to be fixed, then to compensate us enough to go buy a proper car without taking such a financial hit as in scenario 2, above.


Anyway, weren't there two people or so on here who were getting V31.1 this week? What's the deal there?

I am thinking I am going to just try and finish out my lease--hell I still have 29 months to go, and we have all seen how the car market in general is doing--I wouldn't think I could get anything close to my payoff by selling it....sigh....

That being said, if there was a way to get BMW to take my car back, I would jump at the opportunity. The new S4 looks very nice, and I think it could get in the range of what I have come to expect out of the N54.....

Sad thing though, to think about getting rid of a car that I was so excited about....which had so much potential.....really sucks the way BMW has gone about making these changes to the N54.....

[BMWagain]

Originally Posted by shaddai

My car was built in April as well, and while The Lag reacts differently at times (I've noticed it's worse when the ambient temperature is hot, especially when the AC is active), it's most definitely there. We do have three major differences though:

1. You have an xi. I have an i
2. You have a step. I have MT
3. You did ED. I didn't

1 and 2 have already been debunked by others in this thread. I don't know about 3... it's possible your car received some "special ED software blend" that those of us who either bought off the lot or ordered shipped to the dealer didn't get ... or as was suggested just a few posts earlier that your butt dyno is off . I'm not sure what to believe, but in reality all that matters is i was baited and switched by BMW and they delivered me a neutered car that plain as day does not meet (or exceed) their advertising.

Excuse me but I wonder what "You did ED. I didn't" means.

Thx.

[jhbodle]

Originally Posted by ezatnova

Anyway, weren't there two people or so on here who were getting V31.1 this week? What's the deal there?

I'm one of those people. I took it in on Monday and they rang me up to say they need to re-book the car for three days to perform the update. So it's going back in on 3rd November and i'll have it back on the 5th. I wonder if v31.2 will be out by then?

I also ran some tests - at the moment if I select gear M3 it will accelerate from 20-40mph in 3 seconds. No apparent lag with my v27 software (as expected). We'll see what it will do when they perform the update.