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[DASHOCKER]

Xdrive with allseason rubber on my 335 & I had zero issues in the Blizzard of2010. There were front drive cars, trucks, buses going no where and I was slicing throught like a hot knife through butter..

[ragingclue]

Originally Posted by ceb

How does AWD help you steer or stop better?

Getting forward motion (the only advantage of AWD) is a very small and insignificant part of driving in snow.

You'll have to steer and stop too. I suspect that you do that more often than going up steep hills.

Well there's that and the fact that it can help you recover from greater sideslip angles. Gaining forward traction is much easier with AWD, especially from a stop on a hill; I will admit that for sure, but like you said, how often do most of us do that? Some much more than others, I'm sure.

Basically, if your foot's on the gas, x-drive is going to help you out. If it's not, it's only adding to the issues (especially if we're talking about RWD+snows vs AWD+AS tires). That being said, I'm a strong proponent of seasonal tires in areas where snow falls and temperatures vary from season to season. Stopping and maintaining lateral traction are areas where you'll lose out big with AWD+AS vs RWD+snows, and the difference isn't only limited to snowy roadways; dry conditions with very low temperatures also have the AS tires operating outside their envelope although to a lesser extent than if there was snow on the ground.

[BMWsky]

IMHO, the type of tires used and driving technique is the heart of the matter. AWD on a car with snow tires is probably best in snow, but technique is equally a factor. This goes back to my first post in the thread about AWD giving people a false sense of security in the snow. I should've quantified my statement better, especially considering this forum and the driving enthusiasts that post here...it probably doesn't apply to most here (the false sense of security). Having both AWD and RWD at the same time, I prefer the RWD with snows only because I'm comfortable with knowing how the car will react. I also have to admit, I like the lower look of cars with RWD.

Confession time; there was one day last year when I couldn't drive my RWD car to work. The town plowed the roads after my driveway was plowed; it left about a foot and a half of snow at the end. My RWD car couldn't clear it, my AWD car could because it sat just a little higher.

[TheRox]

Originally Posted by ragingclue

Well there's that and the fact that it can help you recover from greater sideslip angles. Gaining forward traction is much easier with AWD, especially from a stop on a hill; I will admit that for sure, but like you said, how often do most of us do that? Some much more than others, I'm sure.

Basically, if your foot's on the gas, x-drive is going to help you out. If it's not, it's only adding to the issues (especially if we're talking about RWD+snows vs AWD+AS tires). That being said, I'm a strong proponent of seasonal tires in areas where snow falls and temperatures vary from season to season. Stopping and maintaining lateral traction are areas where you'll lose out big with AWD+AS vs RWD+snows, and the difference isn't only limited to snowy roadways; dry conditions with very low temperatures also have the AS tires operating outside their envelope although to a lesser extent than if there was snow on the ground.

Thank you.


As usual...people in this forum are looking at minute isolated aspects of RWD and AWD.


You need to transcend this small thinking and look at the bigger picture. I won't bother to go into details because its a waste here on forums -- but overall, AWD is much safer and has a better ability to track in snow...especially when combined with a sophisticated all wheel drive computer/mechanical system (IE. AUdi's Quattro is pretty amazing, as is Porsche Panamera AWD, which is probably form Quattro).

Its not JUST ABOUT the take off traction, or going up hills - its about AWD's ability on the whole -- its ability to give torque to the front wheels when you understeer to pull you out of a slide, its ability to go up hills and track through deep snow (this is hardly important, in most cities you don't need this), and the very simple fact that all wheel drive cars do not spin their rear and are less likely to spin out or oversteer.

The fact is 95% of people are not expert driver like Walter Rohl...you, yes you do not have that fine ability to recover from oversteer or rear spinning out in EVERY SINGLE SITUATION -- every situation is different, and its likely you will meet your limits eventually. AWD decreases the RELATIVE PROBABILITY of this happening. Yes you can meet your limits with AWD, BUT its likely to occur way after you would meet your limits with RWD. For most average drivers with kids in the back, groceries in the trunks, and who don't fancy themselves to be 25 year old micheal schumacher -- this is a very GOOD trade off.

You need to understand relative risk and probability -- if used properly, AWD decreases the chance/probability of a mishap, it does not eliminate it.


That being said, its a bitch otherwise -- 6MT takeup is boggy/laggy power delivery, it rides higher, suspension is softer(personally I like this, my damn car already rides like an ox-cart), and the ride is not as smooth as rear wheel, power delivery is choppy too even once you get going, its also heavier (yes you feel it), less agile due to the weight, and some argue the weight distribution is affected, which it probably is.

So it does have issues from an enthusiast point of view; but from a safety point of view, you're a damn fool if you think AWD + Snows + good traction control software isn't miles ahead of RWD + snows

//thread.

[F32Fleet]

Try the HP Snows and if that doesn't work then you can go one step up on to dedicated snows.

RWD + plus some sort of snow tire is a must in the Northeast IMO.

Sure AWD w/snow tires is the ultimate, but nothing can overcome common sense and this is why I always saw plenty of AWD cars/trucks in the ditches as I cautiously motored on by.



I was in CT this past weekend and completely shocked at the large numbers of high dollar vehicles (BMW,AUDI,BENZ, etc) which were shod with summer or A/S tires.

[AWD Addict]

Originally Posted by Kikken

This is not always true, and in a car with 50/50 weight distribution (which our cars do have) it is certainly not true.

I've owned AWD, FWD, and RWD cars, and I'd take a decent RWD with snow tires over an AWD with all-seasons ("decent" meaning something with at least 50% of the weight on the back wheels). But certainly the best solution would be AWD with snow tires.

Apples to apples, it absolutely is. It's physics. Putting power down to all 4 corners versus only 2 = superior traction, handling and stability.

I'm sorry, it's not a complicated format.

[Kikken]

Deleted, since trying to have any rational discussion with a Fanboi is pointless.

[AWD Addict]

Originally Posted by wrickem

Just curious but when you drive another BMW on the same drive, do you also get 20 MPG? Yes, I do have a chip on my shoulder about the gas guzzler tax on my old M3 that averaged the same 24MPG as every other BMW I've ever driven, AWD or RWD on my daily commute.

I haven't driven the run with a comparable BMW. The e46 M3 seems to be a bit better, though i admittedly can't thrash it the same without risking ending up i nthe charles river off storrow drive.

My old man's 540 was a completely different animal. Hard to compare.

[AWD Addict]

Originally Posted by ceb

How does AWD help you steer or stop better?

Getting forward motion (the only advantage of AWD) is a very small and insignificant part of driving in snow.

You'll have to steer and stop too. I suspect that you do that more often than going up steep hills.

It doesn't help you stop better. That's all tires.

It absolutely helps you steer better. 4 wheels driving through a slide is much better than just the back two. Also, power is diverted to outside wheels on a hard turn or to gripping wheels in a slide, where the greater contact patch/traction is. Going up a hill is a joke in this car. 2:1 slopes covered in snow, and you don't even slip. Just straight ahead clawing up the hill. It's hilarious. It feels like the car has bear claws for wheels.

It's much more than just going forward. People that say that clearly haven't driven both formats enough to failry opine. Hills, slide/slip correction and cornering are all dramatically improved in AWD, as is emergency correction due to ice/wet leaves. RWD in the suprise slip conditions (black ice, snow covered ice, etc) is simply a death lottery, regardless of tires. There's no ability to throttle your way straight again.

It's a totally different experience. Stopping is the only aspect that is unchanged.

[AWD Addict]

Originally Posted by BMWsky

IMHO, the type of tires used and driving technique is the heart of the matter. AWD on a car with snow tires is probably best in snow, but technique is equally a factor. This goes back to my first post in the thread about AWD giving people a false sense of security in the snow. I should've quantified my statement better, especially considering this forum and the driving enthusiasts that post here...it probably doesn't apply to most here (the false sense of security). Having both AWD and RWD at the same time, I prefer the RWD with snows only because I'm comfortable with knowing how the car will react. I also have to admit, I like the lower look of cars with RWD.

The driving technique is totally different in AWD vs RWD in inclement weather. The throttle is as or more important than the steering wheel. Just like in driving school when they restrain the steering wheel to 10 and 2, and make you steer with the brake.

As for knowing how your car reacts, that's all our fault. We all adjust our driving to optimize our machine. BMWs and other enthusiast driven cars have a way of doing that.

That said, I still think that anyone given the same snowy season in an AWD and RWD car, at the end would choose the AWD hands down.

[AWD Addict]

Originally Posted by Socom

I was in CT this past weekend and completely shocked at the large numbers of high dollar vehicles (BMW,AUDI,BENZ, etc) which were shod with summer or A/S tires.

That's actually frustrating. It's pretty irresponsible. THose people are putting other drivers at risk.

[DenverJayhawk]

Originally Posted by AWD Addict

That said, I still think that anyone given the same snowy season in an AWD and RWD car, at the end would choose the AWD hands down.

I think this is true for the general American driving population, but not driving enthusiasts. We're a society that preys on fear and takes comfort in buying whatever we can to mitigate that fear. It's the same tactics used in everything from national security, how we raise our children to which drive train system is safest 100% of the time.

The fact that AWD is so popular in the US shows the effectiveness of marketing to the general public even when 99% of the population would get by just fine with fwd/rwd and dedicated winter tires.

That said, I've driven awd/4wd in the snow and ice and I'll admit it's nice to power through the conditions from a dead stop on an incline without any anxiety of becoming stuck.

[AWD Addict]

Originally Posted by DenverJayhawk

I think this is true for the general American driving population, but not driving enthusiasts. We're a society that preys on fear and takes comfort in buying whatever we can to mitigate that fear. It's the same tactics used in everything from national security, how we raise our children to which drive train system is safest 100% of the time.

I think there are a lot of AWD Driving enthusiasts. Subaru, Audi, Porshe, BMW, Mitsubishi etc. Just look at all the 4g63 and EJ20 driving enthusiasts that populate this forum. Look at the AWD specialty tuners now tuning the n54 like Shiv and Cobb. It's not coincidence. This community is the graduation from those enthusiast communities that live for AWD.

To claim that AWD is suitable for the typical soccer mom rather than for enthusiasts is silly. Need I remind you of AWD's racing history versus 2WD cars? It wasn't deemed an unfair advantage without reason - it's because it is.

The BMW community's constant snubbing of AWD never ceases to amaze me. At first people thought it was blasphemy that BMW would even consider a superior format. (OMG Change?! Change BAD!!). Now there just seems to be batches of folks stuck in stubborn denial. It's weird and annoying.

The people constantly suggesting to new members to buy a RWD car for snow (just use snow tires! ) is lunacy. It's dishonest and borderline dangerous and reckless advice for people looking for an experienced consultation. I won't even get into the dry condition debate. This forum is a decade away from being able to handle that discussion maturely.

[TheRox]

Originally Posted by AWD Addict

That's actually frustrating. It's pretty irresponsible. THose people are putting other drivers at risk.

Its CT -- some parts of the US have more money than trees!

Ehem, CA!

[TheRox]

Originally Posted by AWD Addict

I think there are a lot of AWD Driving enthusiasts. Subaru, Audi, Porshe, BMW.

To claim that AWD is suitable for the typical soccer mom rather than for enthusiasts is silly. Need I remind you of AWD's racing history versus 2WD cars?

Yea but XDrive sucks compared to Porsche and Audi's AWD. I would know, I have both.

I don't like AUdi cars, but I give them their due - look great, and very nice AWD system.

Porsche's AWD beats the pants off of XDrive, at least the one on the Panamera -- it feels more like a rally/sports AWD than BMW's does.

But I blv BMW is coming out with torque vectoring and all that in their next set of cars, so it should remedy that.

Its not hard to get an AWD system right at this price point, I know the X6 has the torque vectoring XDrive.

[DenverJayhawk]

Originally Posted by AWD Addict

I think there are a lot of AWD Driving enthusiasts. Subaru, Audi, Porshe, BMW, Mitsubishi etc. Just look at all the 4g63 and EJ20 driving enthusiasts that populate this forum. Look at the AWD specialty tuners now tuning the n54 like Shiv and Cobb. It's not coincidence. This community is the graduation from those enthusiast communities that live for AWD.

To claim that AWD is suitable for the typical soccer mom rather than for enthusiasts is silly. Need I remind you of AWD's racing history versus 2WD cars? It wasn't deemed an unfair advantage without reason - it's because it is.

The BMW community's constant snubbing of AWD never ceases to amaze me. At first people thought it was blasphemy that BMW would even consider a superior format. (OMG Change?! Change BAD!!). Now there just seems to be batches of folks stuck in stubborn denial. It's weird and annoying.

The people constantly suggesting to new members to buy a RWD car for snow (just use snow tires! ) is lunacy. It's dishonest and borderline dangerous and reckless advice for people looking for an experienced consultation. I won't even get into the dry condition debate. This forum is a decade away from being able to handle that discussion maturely.

You are joking, right? You think it's dishonest and dangerous to recommend rwd with snows? I guess everyone in Europe and everyone in the U.S was up shit creek for the past 80 years when rwd was dominant. How did we ever get through those times.

And no matter how you look at it, RWD is better suited for a dedicated on pavement racing. Yes, I know that the 911 Turbo and GTR have awd. And subaru, audi etc do have a performance driving history, but it has traditionally been geared towards rally racing and not on pavement racing. Dedicated road racing vehicles are rwd for a reason. Driving dynamics are optimized with rwd. It's the reason BMWs were traditionally rwd. There are times when awd has its place in racing such as when in low traction conditions as in rally racing. I'm not knocking awd at all and it certainly has its benefits and place. But if you want dedicated performance driving on a road surface, every professional will go with rwd.

Once Ferrari and Lotus makes an F1 car with awd, I will admit that awd has equaled rwd in racing conditions.

[AWD Addict]

Originally Posted by DenverJayhawk

You are joking, right? You think it's dishonest and dangerous to recommend rwd with snows? I guess everyone in Europe and everyone in the U.S was up shit creek for the past 80 years when rwd was dominant. How did we ever get through those times.

What a stupid comment. I don't even know how to respond. People didn't choose RWD over AWD 80 years ago, because production AWD didn't exist.

And yes. When someone who lives in a snowy climate asks if they should get AWD, and some member in denial says "you'll be fine with RWD in snows", I think it's bad advice. RWD with snows is less capable than AWD with all seasons. Anyone telling you different is being dishonest, or ignorant having not actually experienced both.

Originally Posted by DenverJayhawk

And no matter how you look at it, RWD is better suited for a dedicated on pavement racing.

...

Dedicated road racing vehicles are rwd for a reason. Driving dynamics are optimized with rwd.

You know Quattro was banned from the touring car championship after going 7 for 7, right? you're absolutely right there's a reason there's no AWD. IT'S AGAINST THE RULES.

Originally Posted by DenverJayhawk

It's the reason BMWs were traditionally rwd.

Really? I'd ask you to prove that, but you can't. Mostly because it's not true, but more because you don't have access to BMW production strategy.

Originally Posted by DenverJayhawk

There are times when awd has its place in racing such as when in low traction conditions as in rally racing. I'm not knocking awd at all and it certainly has its benefits and place. But if you want dedicated performance driving on a road surface, every professional will go with rwd.

Banned from road racing. 7 out of 7 races won. Newsflash: not just better in dirt.

Originally Posted by DenverJayhawk

Once Ferrari and Lotus makes an F1 car with awd, I will admit that awd has equaled rwd in racing conditions.

Doesn't meet F1 requirements for engine/drive format. Also, the Lambo Gallardo is one of the fastest best performing AWD cars ever. Man, you should quit replying. Do you watch ANY kind of racing at all? The F in F1 is for "formula" which is the rules that determine the automobile. Chassis, suspension, engine, qerodynamics etc. are all predetermined. So your proposal to wait for someone to add AWD to F1 is a stupid one.

[Professor///M]

Just for the record there are tons of performance cars that are AWD - lambo, porche, audi r8... clearly there's a reason for that. It's not my job to figure out that reason, nor care. It's just a matter of me agreeing with AWD Addict that there is a move towards AWD, and it's not fear driven - possibly performance driven.


And in regards to the other posts, I'm not sure why everyone is surprised that no one cares, nor understands tire dynamics. In the US we have the most piss poor driving instruction, which doesn't teach basic vehicle dynamics. It barely teaches the rules of the road.

Americans want what they want for the least amount of money. So they'll spend 3K more on the base xdrive BMW, but won't care nor realize that those tires on them are sub-optimal. THey will also, in say 50,000 miles when they're completely bald, spend 48 dollars per tire on tire rack on the cheapest thing they can put on them.

Then they will call their Xdrive shit and move to a huge 5000lb Escalade because they didn't have the brains to realize that it wasn't the car that was the problem that lost the traction in the winter - it was the tires and the stupid driver behind the wheel.


Any ENTHUSIAST on this board will argue that their setup is best. It's best for you. Instead of arguing with each other, maybe we should put our collective brains together and inform the other morons of the world why they just sideswiped us because their car lost control. That's energy and time better spent, not the pissing match between RWD+Snow, AWD+SNOW, AWD+AS, etc.

[ragingclue]

Originally Posted by AWD Addict

RWD with snows is less capable than AWD with all seasons.

I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with that as a general statement.

[raj55]

With a newer E90 (50:50 weight distribution) and proper snow tires, like Nokian rsi or equivalent you'll do just fine. I have an incline leading from my house to the main road and it has been snowing crazy in Sweden lately with unplowed road and I have had no problem. My neighbour's volvo with front wheel drive and snow tires got stuck once on the same stretch but not my car! The trick is snow tires, slow and steady climb and do not touch the DSC/DTC knob.

[AWD Addict]

Originally Posted by ragingclue

I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with that as a general statement.

That's fine. I didn't even think it was a close comparison, honestly. The lateral sliding that is added by shittier rubber is dramatically overpowered by being able to throttle out of a slide with 4 wheels.

Stopping is obviously worse, but in a manual transmission, down shifting and careful driving counter the vast majority of that. In a straight on stopping emergency, regardless of drive format, I'd obviously prefer snows. Unfortunately, that's something like .001% of driving for me, so I don't add a lot of weight to that metric.

[DenverJayhawk]

you clearly have your awd colored glasses on as demonstrated by ridiculous response.

I live in snowy climate and I get by just fine with RWD. I also have another vehicle with awd. I'll argue Colorado gets more snow that Mass and that I have more experience driving both rwd and awd in low traction conditions than yourself.

BMWs were traditionally rwd because it improves driving dynamics and steering feedback. You're blind or ignorant if you disagree. Every credible car magazine has stated so.

I'll wager I watch a hell of a lot more racing than you. I also watch motocross and road racing. I also auto-cross. Have you ever driven on a closed course?

Your response to the F1 statement shows just how much you know. F1 represents the pinnacle of road racing in terms of technology and driving dynamics. If awd would help them get around the course more quickly, they would certainly advocate and use awd technology.

We clearly have a difference of opinion. I see awd having it's place and I understand the drawbacks of awd in racing format as well as in every day use. That's why I own a second vehicle that has propulsion to all 4 wheels because I know the pros and cons. You appear to be blinded by the need to only justify awd superiority. I'm happy to continue this conversation i'll show you articles from C&D where they stated rwd is superior to awd for driving dyamics. PM me if you're interested.

Originally Posted by AWD Addict

What a stupid comment. I don't even know how to respond. People didn't choose RWD over AWD 80 years ago, because production AWD didn't exist.

And yes. When someone who lives in a snowy climate asks if they should get AWD, and some member in denial says "you'll be fine with RWD in snows", I think it's bad advice. RWD with snows is less capable than AWD with all seasons. Anyone telling you different is being dishonest, or ignorant having not actually experienced both.



You know Quattro was banned from the touring car championship after going 7 for 7, right? you're absolutely right there's a reason there's no AWD. IT'S AGAINST THE RULES.




Really? I'd ask you to prove that, but you can't. Mostly because it's not true, but more because you don't have access to BMW production strategy.



Banned from road racing. 7 out of 7 races won. Newsflash: not just better in dirt.



Doesn't meet F1 requirements for engine/drive format. Man, you should quit replying. Do you watch ANY kind of racing at all? The F in F1 is for "formula" which is the rules that determine the automobile. Chassis, suspension, engine, qerodynamics etc. are all predetermined. So your proposal to wait for someone to add AWD to F1 is a stupid one.