[roninsoldier83]

So, I’m a man of my word… put the JB4 back in the car yesterday, updated firmware to 2/21/11, enabled Map 5 (autotuning/autoPID). Didn’t drive the car too hard yesterday, only a couple quick WOT pulls in lower gears. Today, I routed the JB4 USB cable inside the car, and this evening, I made a few WOT pulls in 3rd gear. For reference, my in dash temp gauge said it was 41 degrees outside, so just about perfect weather to avoid heatsoak IMO. The car is filled with 91 octane piss water (via Shell), and most importantly, I am at 5200 ft elevation (Denver, CO).

With all of that said, so far, the JB4 map 5 seems a bit smoother than the old firmware version (1/1/2011) map 1. Believe it or not, consistency seems to be improved a bit as well… both of which are FAR better than the JB3 at this altitude (horrid… would pull hard for a split second in the cold, then feel like it was hitting a brick wall, massive timing drops ect).

The good news is no more negative timing drops, yay! Haha! There are a few dips in timing here and there, but it’s not going negative anymore, so I would say the autotuning feature is really attempting to do its job. Ultimately, I would rather see a smooth increase in timing as RPM increases, so while timing is not as bad as it was with old firmware map 1 (not nearly as horrid as JB3), I think there’s a good amount of room for improvement here (evidenced by the multiple 3+ degree timing drops, the car isn't too happy to say the least).

Next thing you’ll want to notice is ECU PSI…. I turned on DME BT after logging (already exported as JPG’s at that point), and yes, DME BT overlaid almost perfectly over ECU PSI for the majority of the pull, so my car really is attempting to reach ~10psi or so in the lower/mid RPM range. I had already exported a couple of my logs and started new logging sessions, so for uniformity purposes, I didn’t include it in the final logs, but have no problem including it in the future, but take my word for it, the ECU really is targeting those boost pressures. Welcome to 5200 ft elevation haha!! This is the product of what happens when the ECU/DME tries to compensate for elevation.

These were the first WOT 3rd gear pulls (I’ve made a few 1st & 2nd gear pulls) I’ve made since I put the JB4 in and enabled autotuning… as you can see, with each successive pull, autotuning/autoPID seemed to pull slightly more boost. I’ll make a few more pulls/logs at the end of the week on the dyno to see if it ever gets down to stock targeted levels. As you can see, at this point, autotuning/autoPID is only adding 2-3psi over stock, so I’m really not seeing too much of a power gain over stock at this point compared to most of the sea level guys. Although I’m more curious to see the differences in boost when it actually gets hot outside (it was only 41 degrees F when I made these pulls).

Either way, when Cobb releases the AP I’ll be sure to post logs of those pulls as well with their stage 1 OTS map, and finally I’ll tune my own map via ATR and see how that stacks up, all of which will have dyno graphs to show differences in torque/power. I noticed Cobb running much richer AFR’s than the piggybacks run, claiming it helped a bit with knock resistance (typically does with most cars I’ve tuned in the past), so it will interesting to play with lambda settings along with timing and boost on these cars, even though prior to Cobb the general consensus seemed to be that richening these cars up a bit has little to no effect on knock resistance… it’ll be interesting to find out for myself. I have a feeling that richening this car up a bit and making a solid timing map is going to allow me to up the boost a decent amount over where it’s at now (i.e. make more power) without knocking/experiencing drops in timing, but at this point, I’m just speculating… we’ll find out as soon as Cobb releases both ’07 support as well as AccessTuner Race software, and I’ll be sure to post dyno results regardless of the outcome.

For reference, on all of these pulls, car was fully warmed up (oil temps between 220-230), and save for the last pull (only about 1 minute or so between 3rd and 4th pull), all of which had several minutes of cool down time between them. I also ONLY did 4 WOT 3rd gear pulls, so I’m not “hand picking” here, what you see is what it is. I suppose you have to take me at my word on that one. Here are the logs:








-Brandon

[Litos]

ok, so this was the 2/21 update.

you were only making 12psi - i guess due to altitude/temps !?!?

[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

12 at best tapering to 8.

But high elevation and piss gas.

I still think the BMS autotune needs work, its very conservative. Which isnt bad but not good for power.

[Litos]

i'm sticking with Map 1 still.

i WOT the car about 4 times today - to me it felt good.

from 30-80 it stayed in one gear, but is it me or does it take a whole calendar year for this damn AT to shift, HAHA !!!!

my SRT8 bangs the gears every time it goes in.

the Bimmer goes "vrroooooooooooooooOOOOOOOOOOOMMMMMMMMMMMMMM...... .........insert a whole episode of Family Guy.............shift.............vrrrrroooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOMMMM MMMMMMMMM"

[roninsoldier83]

Originally Posted by Litos

ok, so this was the 2/21 update.

you were only making 12psi - i guess due to altitude/temps !?!?

Yes sir, this is the latest 2/21/2011 firmware update, and yes around 12psi peak, tapering to around a low of about ~9psi or so (even though I stopped most runs around ~6000rpm or so, running it to redline would have seen even more tapering or boost I'm sure).

Notice my ECU/DME was "seeing"/attempting to target around 10psi peak in most cases... autotuning is only allowing me to see a peak of about ~2psi increase over what the DME would attempt to push stock. Hence no more huge timing drops comparatively (timing didn't go negative, yay!! haha), although as you can see, there are a few timing drops, and no progressive timing advance as engine speeds increase. The actual manifold pressure isn't too much higher than the DME "thought" it was, which is in stark contrast to what most of the sea level guys would be seeing (more significantly increased load levels than the DME is perceiving).

Autotuning is doing its job, as it seemed to be incrementally dropping boost as I made each pull (pulls are posted in the order I made them, first to last).

The JB3 in contrast used a very simple multiplication algorithm... from what I understand, trying to create XXX percentage of the stock boost target, which makes sense as to why my car would feel like it was hitting a brick wall after the onset of boost... if it was trying to target let's say 200% of target boost on a car at sea level, that is targeting 6-7psi that's one thing, whereas trying to target the same percentage of stock target up here when my car is already pushing ~10psi (having to work harder just to make that 10psi pressure than it would at sea level as well due to lower density air pressures), trying to target ~20psi on an otherwise stock car at high altitude on 91 octane piss water without allowing the DME to see the increase in load... well, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out the knock sensors probably weren't too happy, which resulted in a huge drop in both timing as well as boost. Makes a lot of sense why Terry mentioned many of his high elevation customers needed a bit of custom mapping on the JB3.

If I could play with the timing values and fuel trims, I'm sure I can make the car happier/allow a larger increase in boost... overall, autotuning is much improved over the old firmware map 1 in terms of smoothness and consistency
but at this point, I'm fairly confident I can make more power without any drops in timing/increase consistency as well with a good custom tune.

Cliff notes: High elevation sucks. OTS maps that are typically "ok" without being optimal at sea level are usually much further from optimal up here... which is why I'm a big fan of custom tuning.

[roninsoldier83]

Originally Posted by JPSlick

12 at best tapering to 8.

But high elevation and piss gas.

I still think the BMS autotune needs work, its very conservative. Which isnt bad but not good for power.

On Saturday I'll be back at the same dyno I baselined the old firmware version JB4 map 1 on... it's been a while since I drove on the old map 1 (was out of the car for over a month haha), and the butt dyno isn't that well calibrated haha, but it will be interesting to see the differences in torque/power as well as the overall shape/smoothness of the curves.

Either way, I have a feeling that I'm going to be able to beat both of those maps in terms of both power as well as consistency when I eventually get to tune this bugger via ATR... but, I'm just speculating here, and am a big enough man to eat my own words if I'm wrong haha. We'll see in the coming months

[Joshboody]

In severe conditions, with only a tune, you'll see that stock boost is aggresive without reduced timing.

Is there a "tuner" relationship to boost and advance... both directly effect pressure on the power stroke. I'm curious why most seem to be focused on increasing boost. why not focus on a more efficient engine in general.

[Charleston335]

Originally Posted by Litos

i'm sticking with Map 1 still.

i WOT the car about 4 times today - to me it felt good.

from 30-80 it stayed in one gear, but is it me or does it take a whole calendar year for this damn AT to shift, HAHA !!!!

my SRT8 bangs the gears every time it goes in.

the Bimmer goes "vrroooooooooooooooOOOOOOOOOOOMMMMMMMMMMMMMM...... .........insert a whole episode of Family Guy.............shift.............vrrrrroooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOMMMM MMMMMMMMM"

My AT is pretty instant, your tranny slipping?

[Litos]

nah, tranny is stronger than Bonds on flax seed oil.

i think i'm just spoiled with how fast my SRT8 goes into gear.

the 335 tranny lags a bit during the shift @ 75/80mph

it's ok, car still pulls harder than hair in a bitch fight.........

[roninsoldier83]

Originally Posted by Joshboody

In severe conditions, with only a tune, you'll see that stock boost is aggresive without reduced timing.

Is there a "tuner" relationship to boost and advance... both directly effect pressure on the power stroke. I'm curious why most seem to be focused on increasing boost. why not focus on a more efficient engine in general.

The plan is to make more power/torque without knock/timing drops. The car is turbocharged from the factory, so naturally the easiest way to increase torque is to increase boost pressure. There is a relationship between the two, as the more air within the cylinder, the faster the burn, requiring less timing advance in order to get a complete burn by the optimum point (typically around the ~20 degree ATDC mark IIRC) during the power stroke.

The point of dyno tuning the car (Cobb, hurry up with '07 AP & ATR software already!! haha), is to get as much torque (sustained/HP) as I can out of the engine without compromising safety or consistency. A tool like a dyno allows me to visibly witness gains/losses over the powerband while playing with settings. If the car makes more power with less boost and more timing advance (with more and less being relative terms) without any visible knock/large timing drops, then so be it, and the same goes for vice versa.

The point is to make more power without sacrificing consistency or safety. Typically on most other boosted cars you'll see people richening up the AFR as well, which typically helped to cool the head(s) as well as to reduce cylinder temperatures, so there's another major aspect to be considered (more to it than that, but the basics are air, fuel and timing). So that is another area I'll be playing with, as I'm curious to see if playing with AFR's will yield any increases in detonation resistance (this is true for the vast majority of cars I've played with over the years, even if the general consensus on this platform is to the contrary, I'll find out for myself shortly.).

When dyno tuning, I plan on spending a good amount of time on the dyno, with the car itself being the determining factor on how long I'm there, attempting to play with settings in order to see how the car reacts to fuel, timing and boost in relation to torque/HP, knock resistance and repeatability.

Looking at the logs above, it's pretty obvious that the car is pretty close to the knock threshold on every pull, with fairly large (3+ degree) drops in timing. There's a good amount of work to be done to the timing map IMO. On a somewhat related note, making a solid timing map might actually allow me to run more average advance under WOT, in other words, while peak timing might not be as high at XXXX rpm, if the car is further from the knock threshold it won't knock/I won't see continual drops in timing, allowing me to ramp timing progressively towards redline, and overall average advance (measured over time/RPM) under WOT could be just a high, if not higher. Either way, we'll see.

Another factor to take into consideration is compressor efficiency. Simply put, the more boost you push (more air you compress), the higher your post-turbo IAT's are going to be. The higher your IAT's, the more knock prone the car is (higher cylinder temperatures). This increases on a scale that is not always perfectly linear, but looking a compressor map is often very telling. Although when we talk about increasing boost, of course intercooler efficiency comes into play, as an IC is simply a heat exchanger with the sole purpose of lowering IAT's created from compressing air. Often times, boost is limited based on high IAT's (which lead to high cylinder temps, and again for this discussion, "high" is relative) that push the car closer to the knock threshold, making it more efficient to cap boost at a certain level (it seems as though most tuners for this motor don't like to push more than 12-15psi on a stock car), and run more timing advance.

This is where modifications start to come into the equation, as breathing modifications help to increase overall efficiency. Modifications that increase efficiency on the intake side/make it easier for the car to breathe, help that turbo not have to "work as hard" in order to create the same pressures (to include IC's that have a lower pressure drop), essentially lowering IAT's. Modifications on the exhaust side that allow for greater efficiency/increase flow help to lower EGT's (the more efficiently you can expel exhaust gases, the lower your cylinder temps are going to be, which will be reflected when monitoring EGT).

On a somewhat related/unrelated note, Perrin did a pretty good write-up on intercoolers a couple years back. It's on a different platform, but the principles are the same, and it's a bit of an eye opener in regards to the effects that increasing boost pressure have on IAT/air temps, and their relationship to IC efficiency. Not a bad short read:
http://www.perrinperformance.com/pages/show/92

Either way, every car is different, and many cars running the same motor/same platform are happier using slightly different tuning strategies. I hope to find out what this car likes on the dyno, and plan on posting my eventual results openly. The plan is to increase power without compromising consistency and safety, ultimately increasing overall efficiency being the end goal. To path to getting there is the fun part

Just my $.02

-Brandon

[soulja620]

^^^ very well put

Litos: Your car shifts at 75-80? Or when u manually do it?
That's like a 5,400rpm shift

[enrita]

pretty crappy ignition curve if you ask me ... there are drops all over the place.

[roninsoldier83]

Originally Posted by soulja620

Your car shifts at 75-80? Or when u manually do it?
That's like a 5,400rpm shift

I have a 6-speed manual, so I shift it whenever I like

Call me old school, but I'm a big fan of 3-pedals and the ability to have greater control my car's shifting

I used to do a decent amount of autoX back in the day, and have been in love with the MT ever since

If you look at the logs, on 3 out of 4 of the pulls, I was letting off just north of 6k rpm. I typically don't shift much higher than 6100-6400rpm anyway, so didn't see the point of wrapping it out to redline, especially on public (albeit unpopulated) roads haha.

[Joshboody]

I am very eager to view your results with the dedication you are putting into finding the best setup. Although at 5200ft... it's hard to translate to other areas. Great approach!

I'm curious, when talking boost versus advance, is there an advantage to the reduced cylinder pressure on the compression stroke? If power is equal (boost high, timing low and visa versa), the pressure of actual combustion is equal, but how about on the compression stroke with low versus higher boost. Any advantage to engine strains? I would think EGT is lower with less boost and more timing.

Simply is compression pressures negligible because combustion pressures are much higher... but work is being applied to the piston and the chamber is expanding. just my curiosity.

[roninsoldier83]

Originally Posted by enrita

pretty crappy ignition curve if you ask me ... there are drops all over the place.

+1

I agree... and that's with autotuning enabled and lowering boost slightly on every pull. I wish I would have saved my old logs from old firmware map 1 & the JB3.... while even with autotuning, we're seeing 3+ degree drops all over, some of my old logs (JB3 & JB4 map 1 old firmware) were showing 5-6+ degree drops in 3rd/4th gear pulls, often going negative even in the upper RPM's... hence why I pulled them off of the car.

I'm going to let the autoPID map adjust itself this week and put it on the dyno Saturday to take a look at the curve in comparison to quantify any potential power losses/gains (leaning towards small losses, but we'll see). I'll also make a pull while there on map 4 (stock map but able to log with it) for comparison. Shortly after that, I'll likely remove it from the car again, and will eventually compare all logs & dyno charts with Cobb OTS stage 1 & ATR custom tuned map.

[soulja620]

Originally Posted by roninsoldier83

I have a 6-speed manual, so I shift it whenever I like

Call me old school, but I'm a big fan of 3-pedals and the ability to have greater control my car's shifting

I used to do a decent amount of autoX back in the day, and have been in love with the MT ever since

If you look at the logs, on 3 out of 4 of the pulls, I was letting off just north of 6k rpm. I typically don't shift much higher than 6100-6400rpm anyway, so didn't see the point of wrapping it out to redline, especially on public (albeit unpopulated) roads haha.

Haha, can definitely understand that.. thats Why I'm glad I still have my 88 mitsu. 5spd Rwd lsd turbo I just love the .60fts I can pull on an AT =)

Guess I was assuming he was AT, and agreed redline is pointless

[roninsoldier83]

Originally Posted by Joshboody

I am very eager to view your results with the dedication you are putting into finding the best setup. Although at 5200ft... it's hard to translate to other areas. Great approach!

I'm curious, when talking boost versus advance, is there an advantage to the reduced cylinder pressure on the compression stroke? If power is equal (boost high, timing low and visa versa), the pressure of actual combustion is equal, but how about on the compression stroke with low versus higher boost. Any advantage to engine strains? I would think EGT is lower with less boost and more timing.

Simply is compression pressures negligible because combustion pressures are much higher... but work is being applied to the piston and the chamber is expanding. just my curiosity.

The biggest advantage you're going to see by running lower cylinder pressures
on the compression stroke is knock resistance. Simply put, compression = friction, and friction = heat. The higher your cylinder temperatures are, the more unstable/combustible the mixture (A:F) is going to be, which decreases your margin for error in relation to the knock threshold.

EGT is an animal of it's own.... excessive timing retard can raise EGT's, same thing goes for running excessively rich, it can raise EGT's (both cases fuel is still "burning" as it's exiting the exhaust valve). In contrast, I've seen reductions in EGT due to knock/detonation (more heat absorbed by the combustion chamber). However many times EGT and knock resistance are mutually exclusive, i.e. you can retard timing & run rich which will raise EGT's without any presence of knock. EGT is a topic all to itself, I merely mentioned it above as a way to reflect measured decreases in cylinder temperatures without changing tuning parameters (i.e. fuel, timing or boost) that could easily alter EGT, in order to quantify "gains" in efficiency through exhaust modifications (i.e. helping our motors/air pumps flow air/breathe more efficiently).

[Litos]

Originally Posted by soulja620

Litos: Your car shifts at 75-80? Or when u manually do it?
That's like a 5,400rpm shift

i'll have to WOT @ 30 to get 100% confirmation, but i "think" it shifts out of 3rd gear @ 80mph.

i'm not too worried about where it shifts as much as how slow it shifts

p.s.
just watched a video on my phone and the car is leaving 2nd gear @ 65. it's the lag from 2nd to 3rd gear that feels weak.

[Litos]

i guess it's not too bad because the speedo keeps climbing in between shifts.

oh well........

[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

Originally Posted by Litos

i'll have to WOT @ 30 to get 100% confirmation, but i "think" it shifts out of 3rd gear @ 80mph.

i'm not too worried about where it shifts as much as how slow it shifts

p.s.
just watched a video on my phone and the car is leaving 2nd gear @ 65. it's the lag from 2nd to 3rd gear that feels weak.

So you have BOG in an automatic car? Send a Log to Terry.

[mtlr]

Higher cylinder temps results in an "unstable" air fuel ratio? Please explain.

[roninsoldier83]

Originally Posted by mtlr

Higher cylinder temps results in an "unstable" air fuel ratio? Please explain.

Higher cylinder temps result in a more unstable/combustible mixture, the mixture is comprised of air and fuel (the two elements that are being compressed). Cylinder temps don't modify the AFR (the ratio of air to fuel is still the same) they just make the mixture of the two more combustible/unstable.

Hope that makes sense to you.