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      05-15-2022, 04:15 PM   #705
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Originally Posted by TheBingoBalls View Post
If we're going to go that far into the future, I wouldn't count at Mercedes. Who's to say Mercedes isn't going to throw the next few seasons just to set up for the 2026 regs? They could treat this as turbo-hybrid era all over again. It's one thing to change rules while carryover some aspects of the car (engine freeze), it's a new game when everything changes.

RB could dominate between now and 2025 but once 2026 comes, I'm not counting out Mercedes. Everyone is so high on Porsche but they have very little F1 experience relative to teams who have been here for the turbo-hybrid era.
Because Audi and Porsche will completely annihilate Mercedes. You can set the 2026 regs tomorrow and Audi/Porsche will be ready. The next engine regulations are regulations that Audi/Porsche have been already dominating outside of F1.
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      05-15-2022, 05:11 PM   #706
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Because Audi and Porsche will completely annihilate Mercedes. You can set the 2026 regs tomorrow and Audi/Porsche will be ready. The next engine regulations are regulations that Audi/Porsche have been already dominating outside of F1.
Right... A manufacturer with zero F1 experience will come in and out do all existing teams, and the team that has innovated the 1.6L turbo charged F1 engine the most. Mercedes has made the best and at worst one of the best engines even before the turbo hybrid era, even Newey wanted the Mercedes engines to power redbull but McLaren (back in the McLaren Mercedes days) blocked it. Even Honda couldn't do anything but make grenade engines up until 2021.


What facts do you even have that Audi and Porsche will do well? Many manufacturers have come and failed, even Ferrari couldn't do well for awhile.


I doubt Audi or Porsche will make any meaningful impact for awhile - if they're making their own engine, especially since they're starting from nothing and the current teams already have a platform to start off of, as the 1.6 L V6 is still carried over (and that's not an engine used outside of F1). If they partner with redbull i.e. buy engines off of redbull or slap their name as a title sponsor, then they'll have more successful because they're going off of Honda's engine architecture.


Chassis wise they're starting from nothing and don't even have an f1 factory yet, or even a team so good luck. I doubt they'll be able to reach the top 3 teams right away. The manufacturer that partners with redbull will again just piggy back off redbull and likely be nothing more than a title sponsor with small engine collaboratios.
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      05-15-2022, 06:05 PM   #707
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Right... A manufacturer with zero F1 experience will come in and out do all existing teams, and the team that has innovated the 1.6L turbo charged F1 engine the most. Mercedes has made the best and at worst one of the best engines even before the turbo hybrid era, even Newey wanted the Mercedes engines to power redbull but McLaren (back in the McLaren Mercedes days) blocked it. Even Honda couldn't do anything but make grenade engines up until 2021.


What facts do you even have that Audi and Porsche will do well? Many manufacturers have come and failed, even Ferrari couldn't do well for awhile.


I doubt Audi or Porsche will make any meaningful impact for awhile - if they're making their own engine, especially since they're starting from nothing and the current teams already have a platform to start off of, as the 1.6 L V6 is still carried over (and that's not an engine used outside of F1). If they partner with redbull i.e. buy engines off of redbull or slap their name as a title sponsor, then they'll have more successful because they're going off of Honda's engine architecture.


Chassis wise they're starting from nothing and don't even have an f1 factory yet, or even a team so good luck. I doubt they'll be able to reach the top 3 teams right away. The manufacturer that partners with redbull will again just piggy back off redbull and likely be nothing more than a title sponsor with small engine collaboratios.

Bruh, you can't be serious.... Do you watch anything outside of F1?

Trust me. Just like I told you from testing that the new Mercedes was going to suck, Audi/Porsche will be top teams in 2026. These regulations are already going in place - Audi/Porsche already have a head start on everyone on top of their experience with "sustainable" engines. This is literally how Mercedes became dominant. Is it possible? Sure but doubting this is equally as dopey as coping with how Mercedes can still make some magic happen with their shitbox every race.
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      05-15-2022, 06:38 PM   #708
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Bruh, you can't be serious.... Do you watch anything outside of F1?

Trust me. Just like I told you from testing that the new Mercedes was going to suck, Audi/Porsche will be top teams in 2026. These regulations are already going in place - Audi/Porsche already have a head start on everyone on top of their experience with "sustainable" engines. This is literally how Mercedes became dominant. Is it possible? Sure but doubting this is equally as dopey as coping with how Mercedes can still make some magic happen with their shitbox every race.
Just because a team dominates outside of f1 doesn't mean they will have a remote chance of success in f1. Do you realize how many years in a row people say the mercedes will sucks? Eventually one person will get it right. You don't even have scientific backing or justification on why it sucks, you just don't like how it looks and have hatred towards the team because of Hamilton. So if you want to refute this please, provide some CFD data and not just emotionally based talking points.

The team that partners with redbull will be fine, because it is a redbull with a title sponsor on top. The team that goes solo will suffer because they have zero formula one experience. How do you expect a team to make a championship winning f1 chassis with zero prior knowledge or experience? There are so many minor traps that can occur for reliability issues, electrical issues etc. Look at honda they've been making f1 engines for a while now and with a bump of 5% ethanol to make the fuels e10, they are DNF'ing non stop and having major reliability issues. You expect a team that has never had any experience to come in and make a flawless chassis, that is an absurd thought. It will take audi or porsche years before they can make a chassis that can compete, even Adrian Newey and redbull in the first few years couldn't compete it takes time to learn and develop. The same thing with mercedes, it wasn't an over night success. Also audi or porsche (which ever one is going solo) don't even have a facility or staff yet.


In terms of the engine, I think you are over estimating them. F1 engine architectures are completely different to every single racing class thus far, and they're starting from nothing. They again will have to build from nothing and learn from nothing, while mercedes will be starting from something. So audi or porsche will have to build a platform, while trying to dial out the kinks, and some how catch up with 8 years of engine development. This is while mercedes will be developing their current platform, so some how audi/porsche will have to do all that development and catch up with mercedes's current advancement. That on top of them having zero running data of an f1 engine, look at honda - 5% increase in ethanol and it already has major reliability issues, and this is on a platform it has developed for years - audi has zero experience at all to go off of. It is simply implausible to think they will have a remote chance right at the start of 2026. So while audi/porsche have to build an engine, mercedes already have some where to start and 8 years of developmental experience as a lead.


If they partner with redbull, audi or porsche will be doing minor contributions at best. They will likely be just a title sponsor, because redbull is never going to outright sell their engine power plant to another company because if they leave redbull will be in a tight pinch for an engine just like how they are now that honda has left. And they clearly will not just let audi/porsche do everything because if they leave redbull will not have any expertise on how to build an engine. So in reality if it is a joint venture it will be all redbull powertrains with audi/porsche branding slapped ontop. If this is the case the engine will be competitive because it is piggybacking off of honda's architecture.



BTW there is an engine budget cap that may come into play too, so if this comes into effect audi/porsche and redbull will have a really fun time trying to catch up.





So if you disagree with said statements, please explain how they will catch up and learn all the little caviots about the engine and the chassis in time for 2026? No team has dominated upon entry into f1 before, even redbull with newey took years to build up their infrastructure and knowledge before they could win. Like I said before, if they partner with redbull on engines they will be fine, if they go solo they are likely not going to be competitive for awhile.
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      05-15-2022, 08:07 PM   #709
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How do you expect a team to make a championship winning f1 chassis with zero prior knowledge or experience?
Apart from all know how available at Porsche and Audi (let's agree that the list of achievements in motor racing of those two car manufacturers ain't just a couple of footnotes in automotive history) they will hire people with vast experience in F1. Mercedes-AMG better further tightens its non-competition clauses in its contracts with staff.
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      05-15-2022, 08:39 PM   #710
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Let's not forget Toyota spending $8.3 billion on their F1 team (2002-2009)...Never to win a grand prix.

"It’s a well-known story: gigantic road car manufacturer is seduced by the glamour of Formula 1 but then comes a cropper – not so much that it has bitten off more than it can chew, more that it doesn’t even comprehend the table it’s dining at.
Toyota’s doomed F1 project, which made its race debut now 20 years ago, might be the ultimate example of this familiar tale of Formula 1 folly.
Prior to its grand F1 entry in 2002, the Japanese giant had dominated WRC, more than acquitted itself in sports cars and now had its eyes set on the biggest prize of all."

https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/a...andle-the-pace
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      05-15-2022, 09:05 PM   #711
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Originally Posted by Artemis View Post
Apart from all know how available at Porsche and Audi (let's agree that the list of achievements in motor racing of those two car manufacturers ain't just a couple of footnotes in automotive history) they will hire people with vast experience in F1. Mercedes-AMG better further tightens its non-competition clauses in its contracts with staff.
Not remotely the same as F1, plenty of manufacturers who excellent in other racing categories failed on f1. Toyota has a great record winning and couldn't do anything on F1.

I have no doubt Audi and Porsche will get there, but it's not going to be instant success. The regulations start in 4 years, Audi and porsche haven't even started yet. How do you expect them to build a car, iron out the kinks with zero track testing, and while trying to over come the development other manufacturers are doing that will be going on at the same time. It's unrealistic.


I wouldn't be worried about Mercedes alone, every team redbull included are getting poached. Who knows Newey might leave for Porsche or Audi, he always wanted to make road cars and this is an opportunity for him to do so.
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      05-16-2022, 03:50 AM   #712
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There was Toyota and then Porsche is coming where there will be a different way of thinking in Stuttgart (huge sigh of relief from Toyota when Porsche stepped away from Le Mans).
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      05-16-2022, 08:13 AM   #713
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There was Toyota and then Porsche is coming where there will be a different way of thinking in Stuttgart (huge sigh of relief from Toyota when Porsche stepped away from Le Mans).
Doesn't matter how you think, you're not going to win on your first try in F1. There is too many variables to go wrong when you have no experience building an F1 car. There's an immensely complex wiring and electrical system that if you have zero experience cause pose reliability concerns, there are hydraulic systems etc. Look at Honda a fricken fuel hose which is static in nature caused them issues, Mercedes had engine issues last year even though they've been working on this engine for over 8 years. You simply don't go from concept to practice smoothly without trial and error.

Plus active aero is coming in 2026 adding even more complexity into the equation. So in 4 years without any experience you expect Porsche to over come every major team in F1? That's unrealistic especially when they currently have zero facilities and zero F1 staff, maybe over time but not right away especially with the cost cap preventing them from throwing money at the problem. Btw the talent pool for engineers with F1 experience is only so big so most will have to come from existing teams, so they'll have to poach engineers from current teams. So the technical talents really won't be thinking too differently at all. It is also not a feasible idea that they'll be able to poach all of the best engineers especially with the cost cap once again coming into play. So the likelihood of a win right away or even approaching a top team line Mercedes is unrealistic.



Btw with the cost cap in play trying to equalize the field it's not the team name that matters, it's the staff itself. So there's ever chance Porsche and Audi could be midfield teams. Look at Aston martin, limitless budget, hiring all the best people from redbull and Mercedes - yet back of the field. The talent pool is only so big and you can't hire everyone.
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      05-16-2022, 08:33 AM   #714
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I'm glad to see Porsche & Audi joining, it will be good for the sport long-term and more competition will see innovation... generally speaking. I agree with F87source; there is no way they can come out of the gates as top-dog; they have ZERO experience. and they are not allowed to build and run an F1 car off the track (from what I understand) and their learning has to come during actual race-sanctioned events by F1. it's not like they can just rent out Imola and run laps all day for the next year.

these vehicles are the absolute best in the world and most cutting edge.. the different is thousandth's of a second margins in performance, even the experienced teams make minor changes and get it wrong. with budget caps they can't just throw money at it. if they over-build it, then it adds a lot of weight... no doubt they will build a good car/engine but to say that with zero experience they will produce a result better than 10 experienced teams or 4 engine manufactures is highly unlikely.

not to mention, both Porsche & Audi make great cars and have a German build philosophy; they are also some of the absolute slowest to innovate and improve. Porsche has very very slow incremental improvement and rarely can make radical shifts, and Audi does the same... Just look at Audi's MMI system, the 2020 vehicles get something like a 12 year old system. there is very little innovation year-over-year. these companies both have very methodical approaches and pace themselves.. it's what makes them phenomenal consumer vehicles - but I think they will struggle to adapt and engineer at the pace of F1. Even if they bring in F1 experienced talent I bet there will be a cultural learning curve and internal challenges that will inhibit, not enhance their ability to engineer at the pace of existing F1 teams.
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      05-16-2022, 08:46 AM   #715
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From what I understood Porsche and Audi would enter as an engine manufacturer, not a complete new team.
(Porsche teaming up with RB, and Audi looking to buy mclaren or maybe another team).

And that is what usually happens. Mercedes wasn't a new team when entering. They bought Brawn GP, which was Tyrell before that (and some other names I think)

New teams entering F1 doesn't happen often (a new team that builds a chassis I mean), it's usually by purchasing another old team.

Red bull was jaguar racing, which was steward gp
Alpha tauri was minardi, which was some other names
Alfa romeo is sauber
Haas was marussia
etc
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      05-16-2022, 08:55 AM   #716
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Originally Posted by GuidoK View Post
From what I understood Porsche and Audi would enter as an engine manufacturer, not a complete new team.
(Porsche teaming up with RB, and Audi looking to buy mclaren or maybe another team).

And that is what usually happens. Mercedes wasn't a new team when entering. They bought Brawn GP, which was Tyrell before that (and some other names I think)

New teams entering F1 doesn't happen often (a new team that builds a chassis I mean), it's usually by purchasing another old team.

Red bull was jaguar racing, which was steward gp
Alpha tauri was minardi, which was some other names
Alfa romeo is sauber
Haas was marussia
etc
Yeah I knew one would pair with RB on the engine side of things, more like an engine title sponsor. I didn't know what the other would do, either forming the 11th team or buy an existing one. If they take over McLaren it's still going to be awhile before they can think about being in the top 3. McLaren is still rebuilding and doesn't have the technical might Mercedes, RB, and Ferrari do.


In terms of engine success if they do well that's more a byproduct that they're using Honda's engine patents as a base and piggy backing off of redbull rather than doing it themselves...
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      05-16-2022, 09:19 AM   #717
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We don't know what they're going to do regarding the engine.
I have no idea what from the current ruleset can be translated to the 2026 ruleset and what will happen in that 4 years about current tech getting outdated.

I know that VAG had lots of talk with the FIA about the 2026 ruleset.

Mercedes at one point also became an engine supplier.
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      05-16-2022, 10:38 AM   #718
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F87source View Post
Doesn't matter how you think, you're not going to win on your first try in F1. There is too many variables to go wrong when you have no experience building an F1 car. There's an immensely complex wiring and electrical system that if you have zero experience cause pose reliability concerns, there are hydraulic systems etc. Look at Honda a fricken fuel hose which is static in nature caused them issues, Mercedes had engine issues last year even though they've been working on this engine for over 8 years. You simply don't go from concept to practice smoothly without trial and error.

Plus active aero is coming in 2026 adding even more complexity into the equation. So in 4 years without any experience you expect Porsche to over come every major team in F1? That's unrealistic especially when they currently have zero facilities and zero F1 staff, maybe over time but not right away especially with the cost cap preventing them from throwing money at the problem. Btw the talent pool for engineers with F1 experience is only so big so most will have to come from existing teams, so they'll have to poach engineers from current teams. So the technical talents really won't be thinking too differently at all. It is also not a feasible idea that they'll be able to poach all of the best engineers especially with the cost cap once again coming into play. So the likelihood of a win right away or even approaching a top team line Mercedes is unrealistic.



Btw with the cost cap in play trying to equalize the field it's not the team name that matters, it's the staff itself. So there's ever chance Porsche and Audi could be midfield teams. Look at Aston martin, limitless budget, hiring all the best people from redbull and Mercedes - yet back of the field. The talent pool is only so big and you can't hire everyone.
Disagree b/c of Porsche,unlike any other they figure out things quicker than anyone else.
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      05-16-2022, 11:00 AM   #719
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Disagree b/c of Porsche,unlike any other they figure out things quicker than anyone else.
Agreed. Porsche has the most success in racing and they've done it before in F1 and can again. They are also a much stronger company today than they were in the 70's or 80's.

Additionally, I don't believe Porsche would enter without being confident in their chances to win. I also believe they have entered into regs that will play into their hands and much like how MB had years of time to develop the hybrid engine before anyone knew F1 would go hybrid Porsche will likely have a good engine foundation and will ensure it is stout and robust.

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      05-16-2022, 11:18 AM   #720
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Disagree b/c of Porsche,unlike any other they figure out things quicker than anyone else.
Porsche the entity isn't figuring anything out, it's the engineers (which is an extremely limited pool in F1) doing any "figuring out". If you don't have the top talent it doesn't matter what brand you are, you'll suck.


Look at braum gp, a "no name brand" yet they best Ferrari and redbull.


The name means nothing except how much funding they can provide, it's the engineers. If they start from nothing they will struggle, if they buy McLaren they'll be in a better position but it'll take time before they can swing with Mercedes, redbull and Ferrari
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      05-16-2022, 11:42 AM   #721
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GuidoK View Post
We don't know what they're going to do regarding the engine.
I have no idea what from the current ruleset can be translated to the 2026 ruleset and what will happen in that 4 years about current tech getting outdated.

I know that VAG had lots of talk with the FIA about the 2026 ruleset.

Mercedes at one point also became an engine supplier.
Yeah we have no idea yet. But It'll either be them making their own engine - which means they're going to be really far behind with zero experience. Or they partner with redbull which means just acting as a title sponsor and helping with small advisory roles because redbull will never let them buy out their engine programme.
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      05-16-2022, 12:49 PM   #722
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F87source View Post
Doesn't matter how you think, you're not going to win on your first try in F1. There is too many variables to go wrong when you have no experience building an F1 car. There's an immensely complex wiring and electrical system that if you have zero experience cause pose reliability concerns, there are hydraulic systems etc. Look at Honda a fricken fuel hose which is static in nature caused them issues, Mercedes had engine issues last year even though they've been working on this engine for over 8 years. You simply don't go from concept to practice smoothly without trial and error.

Plus active aero is coming in 2026 adding even more complexity into the equation. So in 4 years without any experience you expect Porsche to over come every major team in F1? That's unrealistic especially when they currently have zero facilities and zero F1 staff, maybe over time but not right away especially with the cost cap preventing them from throwing money at the problem. Btw the talent pool for engineers with F1 experience is only so big so most will have to come from existing teams, so they'll have to poach engineers from current teams. So the technical talents really won't be thinking too differently at all. It is also not a feasible idea that they'll be able to poach all of the best engineers especially with the cost cap once again coming into play. So the likelihood of a win right away or even approaching a top team line Mercedes is unrealistic.



Btw with the cost cap in play trying to equalize the field it's not the team name that matters, it's the staff itself. So there's ever chance Porsche and Audi could be midfield teams. Look at Aston martin, limitless budget, hiring all the best people from redbull and Mercedes - yet back of the field. The talent pool is only so big and you can't hire everyone.
You know very well that Porsche bought 'Rimac , and probably the reason why as well .
And that wasn't for a combustion engine !

According to the rumors the 2026 F1 cars have to be even cleaner . This means that more power has to be electric .
Horner and Helmut Marko know very well what awaits for them from the Porsche electrical (Rimac) technology...

This big 2026 project won't be 100% Porsche . More like 50/50 .
50% Porsche / 50% Red Bull Powertrains
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      05-16-2022, 01:30 PM   #723
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You know very well that Porsche bought 'Rimac , and probably the reason why as well .
And that wasn't for a combustion engine !

According to the rumors the 2026 F1 cars have to be even cleaner . This means that more power has to be electric .
Horner and Helmut Marko know very well what awaits for them from the Porsche electrical (Rimac) technology...

This big 2026 project won't be 100% Porsche . More like 50/50 .
50% Porsche / 50% Red Bull Powertrains
The electrical deploy on street cars is significantly different that on F1 cars, the voltage is significantly higher on F1 cars. Mercedes did formula E and that's a far better parallel for comparison.

However if Porsche is doing the engine with redbull they'll be fine because they won't be starting from nothing. I doubt it would be a 50 50 collaboration because redbull won't want to lose a bunch of knowledge if Audi pulls out. I think it will be fully developed by redbull and Audi does a small bit of contributions. But there's no guarantee it'll be good, redbull has zero engine building knowledge, and same as Audi.
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      05-16-2022, 01:54 PM   #724
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Originally Posted by F87source View Post
The electrical deploy on street cars is significantly different that on F1 cars, the voltage is significantly higher on F1 cars. Mercedes did formula E and that's a far better parallel for comparison.

However if Porsche is doing the engine with redbull they'll be fine because they won't be starting from nothing. I doubt it would be a 50 50 collaboration because redbull won't want to lose a bunch of knowledge if Audi pulls out. I think it will be fully developed by redbull and Audi does a small bit of contributions. But there's no guarantee it'll be good, redbull has zero engine building knowledge, and same as Audi.
That's why Red Bull keeps the Japanese Honda Engineers at Red Bull Powertrains .
And they got some from Mercedes as well..

MKsixer said more than once to me : Red Bull is just an energy drink maker .

But meanwhile they run the number 1 car !
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      05-16-2022, 02:20 PM   #725
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Porsche the entity isn't figuring anything out, it's the engineers (which is an extremely limited pool in F1) doing any "figuring out". If you don't have the top talent it doesn't matter what brand you are, you'll suck.


Look at braum gp, a "no name brand" yet they best Ferrari and redbull.


The name means nothing except how much funding they can provide, it's the engineers. If they start from nothing they will struggle, if they buy McLaren they'll be in a better position but it'll take time before they can swing with Mercedes, redbull and Ferrari
Brawn got lucky with their aero and double diffuser exploiting a loophole in the rules.
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      05-16-2022, 02:35 PM   #726
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Brawn got lucky with their aero and double diffuser exploiting a loophole in the rules.
That's not called lucky, that's called innovation. You don't get lucky in formula 1.
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