[mp-E46]

So here is a million dollar question , may be not.... I am sure this may been talked about before...

Why do Honda, Toyota and other Japanese cars oil pan gasket don't have similar issues? I have a e46 xi and e90 xdrive. e46 has a leaking OPG and e90 just had the VCG anf OFHG replaced again after almost two years.

I wonder if anybody has tried using a heavy duty gasket sealant instead of the BMW OE gasket. They use on other oil pans. I wonder if has to do with the fact the bmw are a die cast aluminum pans instead of stamped metal and the fact they probably weigh more...

Also what if when you replace the oem gasket and if you were to apply a bead of Gasket sealant on the inside edge of the oem gasket. This way when the pan is tightened the sealant will form on the inside seam of the oil pan. You let it cure before adding oil to engine or running it. This way you would have both gaskets and hopefully the sealant out lives the oem.....

Or Not use the OEM gasket at all and just use gasket sealant. I would imagine that would last longer.

[Underground6t9]

That's a good question, not sure either why it leaks and cost and arm and a leg to fix.

[BeastMode335i]

Coming from an 800hp Honda to a 335i, I asked myself all of those questions when I had replaced them as well.. I had to replace all of those at around 60k miles, and didn't touch any of those on my Honda until around 120k miles, and even then it was mostly just preventative.. Maybe we need to send one of those Japanese tech's over to Germany and let them share some knowledge over sushi and a beer lol..

[mp-E46]

The oil pan is a bit tilted on bmw's and so I imagine there is oil always covering gasket and creates more likely hood of leaking. I am sure there is sealant that can withstand the oil exposure. May be worth a try on the OFHG or VCG since it's easy to access.... Somebody has to tried it I would like to think.

[mweisdorfer]

I can't speak for Honda & Toyota. BMW --- turbo charged engines run super hot, which explains why those engines have 7 qts of oil and and electric water pump that cools the turbos, after the engine has been shut off. The various gaskets just don't hold up to the heat over the course of time. Could automakers make a gasket that does?? Probably going given today's technology.

[mweisdorfer]

Originally Posted by mp-E46

The oil pan is a bit tilted on bmw's and so I imagine there is oil always covering gasket and creates more likely hood of leaking. I am sure there is sealant that can withstand the oil exposure. May be worth a try on the OFHG or VCG since it's easy to access.... Somebody has to tried it I would like to think.

I don't think the oil pan is tilted. I have redone all the major gaskets on an n54 motor. The valve cover is most definitely tilted, which does indeed lead to its demise. Putting a bead of permatex Ultra Black onto the gasket would probably increase the life of the seal when talking about the valve cover gasket.

[WhiteBeard]

Originally Posted by mweisdorfer

I can't speak for Honda & Toyota. BMW --- turbo charged engines run super hot, which explains why those engines have 7 qts of oil and and electric water pump that cools the turbos, after the engine has been shut off. The various gaskets just don't hold up to the heat over the course of time. Could automakers make a gasket that does?? Probably going given today's technology.

NA engines run hotter than usual Honda/Toyota engines too. It's a designed feature aimed at fuel efficiency, especially in n51 SULEV engines.

It's still surprising tho, that no one did a DIY review of some sealant that can fix the issue. It's been more than 11 years since e9x are out and still no fix to the probably single most common e9x problem ever - very strange

P.S. same with WP - still no aftermarket WP that can last. Same with injectors for n54 - so many revisions and they still fail. Same with HPFP... it's like conspiracy theory man, I can't otherwise explain why in the wolrd these common issues weren't fixed for a decade now.....!

[Greyfox]

Quick question... are BMW gaskets rubber or synthetic based?

Also, are these Honda and Toyota engines running petroleum or synthetic based oils?

[1QwkEvo]

As a 25+ year Mistu guy, I'm shocked by all these issues as well.

I've also been wondering why we can't find a more long-term solution.

I just replaced all my coils in my 138k 335, but the coils in my 135k Evo are original and not experiencing any problems...

My E90 335i does have a small OPG leak (not dripping on driveway) , but I'll be damned if I remove/lower my subframe to fix it...I'll just add some oil if it's low

[doru]

The inline 6 BMW engines whether N/A or turbo, they always took around 7 qt of oil since the 1900's.

One issue with gaskets & plastics concerning ALL German cars is the fact that in Germany they passed some sort of a law that forces automakers to use recycled plastics. This happened late last century or thereabouts. This affects mainly the cooling system - radiator, expansion tank, etc.
Concerning the rubber, the Germans like their natural rubber compound - so if you don't "gummipflege" the rubber seals around the windows (the glazing), these will crack and look like s*it, and eventually you will have to replace them. The gaskets in the engine they aren't Viton and this is the crux of the problem. Viton is pretty much the only material that withstands high temps in combination with petrochemical substances.
On older BMW's, there were aftermarket seals developed to prevent this issue (Rajae's Vanos seals as an example). But the OFHg's, VCG's, valve stem seals, oil pans etc were still not addressed. Sometime 2012, BMW (or maybe the aftermarket producers?) made changes in some of the OE products, and I know 100% that the VCG & valve stem seals for M54 and N62 engines were made out of Viton, making those gaskets bulletproof. Not sure about the OFHG and other gaskets. I doubt they changed the rubbers for the N52/51 engines, N54, N55 etc. I know for sure the 1st OE gasket/O-rings provider for BMW (and other German cars) that changed the rubber composition from Buna or whatever to Viton is Elring Klinger. Rajae actually made that discovery, and a long time ago I read one of his posts on e46Fanatics about this issue. According to him, the only way to determine what rubber compound the gasket is made of is either call the manufacturer, or do a bounce test of the rubber (assuming you know how to do it).

P.S.: On the newer B58 engines, BMW reverted back the WP pump from ECU mapped to belt driven, but they changed the oil pump to ECU driven like our WP.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by doru

The inline 6 BMW engines whether N/A or turbo, they always took around 7 qt of oil since the 1900's.

One issue with gaskets & plastics concerning ALL German cars is the fact that in Germany they passed some sort of a law that forces automakers to use recycled plastics. This happened late last century or thereabouts. This affects mainly the cooling system - radiator, expansion tank, etc.
Concerning the rubber, the Germans like their natural rubber compound - so if you don't "gummipflege" the rubber seals around the windows (the glazing), these will crack and look like s*it, and eventually you will have to replace them. The gaskets in the engine they aren't Viton and this is the crux of the problem. Viton is pretty much the only material that withstands high temps in combination with petrochemical substances.
On older BMW's, there were aftermarket seals developed to prevent this issue (Rajae's Vanos seals as an example). But the OFHg's, VCG's, valve stem seals, oil pans etc were still not addressed. Sometime 2012, BMW (or maybe the aftermarket producers?) made changes in some of the OE products, and I know 100% that the VCG & valve stem seals for M54 and N62 engines were made out of Viton, making those gaskets bulletproof. Not sure about the OFHG and other gaskets. I doubt they changed the rubbers for the N52/51 engines, N54, N55 etc. I know for sure the 1st OE gasket/O-rings provider for BMW (and other German cars) that changed the rubber composition from Buna or whatever to Viton is Elring Klinger. Rajae actually made that discovery, and a long time ago I read one of his posts on e46Fanatics about this issue. According to him, the only way to determine what rubber compound the gasket is made of is either call the manufacturer, or do a bounce test of the rubber (assuming you know how to do it).

P.S.: On the newer B58 engines, BMW reverted back the WP pump from ECU mapped to belt driven, but they changed the oil pump to ECU driven like our WP.

There are two types of plastic, thermo-forming and thermo-setting. Thermo-formed plastic is highly recyclable. Thermo-setting plastic is less recyclable since they are based on polyester resins and mixed with substrate (like glass fiber or carbon fiber). One of the main attributes of thermo-formed plastic is its recyclability.

Besides, plastics are generally not used for automotive engine gaskets because heat and pressure cause the material to flow.

[PhaseP]

Originally Posted by mweisdorfer

I don't think the oil pan is tilted. I have redone all the major gaskets on an n54 motor. The valve cover is most definitely tilted, which does indeed lead to its demise. Putting a bead of permatex Ultra Black onto the gasket would probably increase the life of the seal when talking about the valve cover gasket.

Oil pan is tilted too, since engine sits tilted in the engine bay.

Manual transmission RWD N52's use stamped sheet metal oil pan, their gaskets leak too.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by mweisdorfer

I don't think the oil pan is tilted. I have redone all the major gaskets on an n54 motor. The valve cover is most definitely tilted, which does indeed lead to its demise. Putting a bead of permatex Ultra Black onto the gasket would probably increase the life of the seal when talking about the valve cover gasket.

This is the bottom end of the N52 with the oil pan removed. The subframe is hanging level....

[mweisdorfer]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

This is the bottom end of the N52 with the oil pan removed. The subframe is hanging level....

Hmm, I stand corrected. I have not worked a whole lot on the N52.

The n54 is level at the oil pan.

So, yes I would add a bead of ultra black on top of the gasket, which I believe is part cooper.

[PhaseP]

From bottom of the oil pan it may seem like level but it is not. N54 is tilted as N52. These engines are tall, that is how they fit it in the engine bay. When the block is tilted valve cover and oil pan is tilted too.

In fact N54 xi oil pan and N52 xi oil pan is the same part:

http://www.realoem.com/bmw/enUS/part...432&series=E90

[Flyboy161]

From what I've read, BMW has a 30 degree tilt on all their 6 cylinder engines. This allows a lower profile hood for an otherwise tall engine. The oil pan appears level from underneath because it is taller on one side than the other. Chrysler did this many years ago with the "slant 6" engine popular in the '60's

[delmarco]

Originally Posted by mp-E46

So here is a million dollar question , may be not.... I am sure this may been talked about before...

Why do Honda, Toyota and other Japanese cars oil pan gasket don't have similar issues? I have a e46 xi and e90 xdrive. e46 has a leaking OPG and e90 just had the VCG anf OFHG replaced again after almost two years.

Well the good Lord has answered our questions!

Apparently BMW now buys (or makes) their gaskets from the Japan markets! So the next gasket you buy at your BMW dealership will have a made in Japan stamped on it.

-What made the original German-made gaskets weak were the materials used. They were made with inferior silicone/rubber (recycled car tires) compounds that deteriorated in a few years (30 to 50k miles) in the car.

-What made the original cheaper Aftermarket gaskets fail quickly after installation was not so much the material as much as the fitment issues. They never fit right in the grooves and oil leaked soon after installation (days to weeks).

Oil and Coolant Gaskets should ideally last on any car up to and beyond 10 years/100,000 miles.

Hopefully these new JDM BMW gaskets will usher in a new generation of oil-leak free BMWs.

Here’s to the future gentlemen (and BMWladies)

[lowrydr310]

Originally Posted by mweisdorfer

I can't speak for Honda & Toyota. BMW --- turbo charged engines run super hot, which explains why those engines have 7 qts of oil and and electric water pump that cools the turbos, after the engine has been shut off. The various gaskets just don't hold up to the heat over the course of time. Could automakers make a gasket that does?? Probably going given today's technology.

My N52 is not turbocharged yet it still has a 7 qt oil capacity. It also has the same leaky gasket symptoms as the N54/N55 turbocharged engines. It also runs relatively hot, however there are lot of Toyota/Honda engines that run extremely hot and still don't have the same leaky gasket issues as these BMWs.

[RND1]

When Toyota was approached by BMW for the joint Z4/Supra development, Toyota said the N55 would never meet their reliability requirements. BMW said not to worry, we have an entirely new platform in development the B58 which will be much more reliable. BMW engineers were surprised with Toyota's additional reliability and durability testing on the new B58 engines. Motors were broken down and the Toyota engineers sent all components to Japan for thousands of hours of additional reliability testing and failure analysis. When a component failed to meet Toyota's standard, it was sent back to BMW for redesign.

That is why Toyota/Honda gaskets don't fail. It's also why we'll see people swapping Supra engines into BMW's in 20 years.

[hassmaschine]

To paraphrase 'Mater from Cars:

if there ain't no oil under it, there ain't no oil in it...

Stop worrying about freakin OPG leaks. Unless it's leaking enough that you actually notice it, who cares? You'll likely never even see any oil on the ground. Are you really going to spend $2500 at a shop to replace a leak that might cost you $5 in 10,000 miles? (that's how much mine leaks, or less even - I might add a quart every other oil change, which I do once a year).

It's not at all like the OFH gasket, which needs to be dealt with immediately, or the shitty plastic valve covers on the newer cars, which warp, crack and leak like crazy. Pre-LCI FTW.

The dealer gave me an inspection when they did the recalls last summer, and said the car looked great, except oh, the OPG is seeping a bit. They helpfully suggested that I spend $2500 to fix it, and they could have it done by the end of the day. I kindly declined. That would take 400 oil changes to break even at my present rate of leakage.

That said, I recently did the oil cooler bracket gasket on our E70 X5 4.8is. what a freakin bitch. It made me think that dropping the subframe on a RWD 330i to redo the OPG would be a breeze in comparison. Maybe I'll get a wild hair up my ass and do it on a whim one weekend, but don't count on it..

[hassmaschine]

Originally Posted by RND1

When Toyota was approached by BMW for the joint Z4/Supra development, Toyota said the N55 would never meet their reliability requirements. BMW said not to worry, we have an entirely new platform in development the B58 which will be much more reliable. BMW engineers were surprised with Toyota's additional reliability and durability testing on the new B58 engines. Motors were broken down and the Toyota engineers sent all components to Japan for thousands of hours of additional reliability testing and failure analysis. When a component failed to meet Toyota's standard, it was sent back to BMW for redesign.

That is why Toyota/Honda gaskets don't fail. It's also why we'll see people swapping Supra engines into BMW's in 20 years.

The B58 in the supra is no different than the B58 in any other BMW car.

Also, the 2JZ is a freakin' boat anchor. *ducks* It makes the S54 look like a 600lb featherweight.

[RND1]

Originally Posted by hassmaschine

The B58 in the supra is no different than the B58 in any other BMW car.

Indeed, perhaps the B58 is the modern rebirth of the 2JZ with closed deck block and forged internals.

Originally Posted by hassmaschine

Also, the 2JZ is a freakin' boat anchor. *ducks* It makes the S54 look like a 600lb featherweight.

Yes, but if you compare the two blocks side by side you can see why the 2JZ weighs 150lbs more than the S54 and consequently can endure 700HP without opening up the engine. Typical Japanese 90's overengineering.