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      08-22-2019, 01:59 PM   #111
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The hilarious part of this thread is that more than half of all Porsche sales are rebadged VAG products. I don't know if Porsche would be viable today on their own (911 and 918 sales are miniscule) had they not had the Audi parts bin to produce SUV's.
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      08-22-2019, 02:05 PM   #112
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It’s funny, when I used to spend time on Porsche forums, we’d talk about wishing that Porsche was more like Lotus, building simple driver’s cars, because Porsches have become to bloated and numb. Go figure. lol

The bottom line is that such a thing doesn’t sell well, and these companies are after money more than satisfying only enthusiasts.
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      08-22-2019, 02:08 PM   #113
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For those that romanticised for a modern e46... there's the 2-series.
BMW is catering to the rich Chinese market. They want tech, brand image, road presence (yay ugly grille), 3-letter feature acronyms and prestige. Driving dynamics? Have you seen Beijing traffic? And BMW is not the only car mfg chasing the Chinese cash.
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      08-22-2019, 02:15 PM   #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gamb1t View Post
For those that romanticised for a modern e46... there's the 2-series.
As someone with a 2006 ZHP E46 330ci and a 2016 M235 F23, I can honestly say the older car is fun for the occasional weekend jaunt but the modern 2-series is a lot nicer on a daily basis. The E46 has under 40K on it, while it doesn't share some of the typical (and expensive) problems of the M of that era it hasn't been cheap to maintain and aside from the steering rack there's not much about it that I prefer.
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      08-22-2019, 02:32 PM   #115
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^ I had a 2001 330ci coupe. Often reminisce about it. It was a nice car to drive. Have toyed with the idea of picking one up. But I wonder if some memories are best left.... as memories.
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      08-22-2019, 02:56 PM   #116
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Originally Posted by Gamb1t View Post
^ I had a 2001 330ci coupe. Often reminisce about it. It was a nice car to drive. Have toyed with the idea of picking one up. But I wonder if some memories are best left.... as memories.
I don’t know. BMW loaned me a 2 series when I took in my 135i, and I couldn’t wait to get my car back. The 2 felt big and dead to me.
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      08-22-2019, 03:37 PM   #117
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      08-22-2019, 03:40 PM   #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clee1982 View Post
you mean you want BMW to sell <500k vehicle instead of 2million+ a year?
BMW is the 13th largest automotive manufacturer in the industry last time I looked; barely mid-pack. They will never be as large as Toyota, GM, or VW. Once VW introduced the MQB concept, it basically killed the industry as far as making interesting cars. Computer chassis control allows for MQB to exist, which has killed chassis dynamics development.

BMW should have remained different and found a different way to be profitable.
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      08-22-2019, 03:43 PM   #119
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I don’t know. BMW loaned me a 2 series when I took in my 135i, and I couldn’t wait to get my car back. The 2 felt big and dead to me.
That's not really a fair comparison in the 330 vs 2-series debate. Your car is modern enough and quick enough that there's not such a huge jump from one to the other. The E46 by comparison feels archaic and slow compared to my M235. I'd venture even a track package 228 would best it. Don't get me wrong the E46 is a wonderful thing and it will never leave the family, but if I were out shopping today I would not look for another one if we didn't already have one.
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      08-22-2019, 03:46 PM   #120
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Originally Posted by 530iDriver View Post
How many would here seriously consider a new E46 or E39 if it would be available today?
Make a retro E30 the likes of what GM and Ford did with the Camaro and Mustang.

My 2 cents.
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      08-22-2019, 03:55 PM   #121
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BEM-S4 View Post
That's not really a fair comparison in the 330 vs 2-series debate. Your car is modern enough and quick enough that there's not such a huge jump from one to the other. The E46 by comparison feels archaic and slow compared to my M235. I'd venture even a track package 228 would best it. Don't get me wrong the E46 is a wonderful thing and it will never leave the family, but if I were out shopping today I would not look for another one if we didn't already have one.
I guess, but ask me in ten years and I’ll say the same. No nav screen, hydraulic steering, small size, manual transmission...it was the end of the “old style” era, and the 135i isn’t much faster than an E46 M3 (in stock form.) Plus, I’m sure lots of 128i owners would agree with me, and those cars aren’t super fast.
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      08-22-2019, 04:03 PM   #122
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
Make a retro E30 the likes of what GM and Ford did with the Camaro and Mustang.

My 2 cents.
That’s how BMW marketed the 1er, as the true heir to the 2002/E30, but I think the 3 series unfortunately still outsold it 10 to 1, IIRC.
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      08-22-2019, 04:18 PM   #123
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I'd say BMW is as good as competitors when it comes to design, luxury, tech, etc. The 7-series is lackluster, but the rest of their portfolio is right there with the competition if not better. Where they are getting killed right now is in EV development. They are way behind the curve and failed with the i3 and i8.

But I agree that the driving dynamics are gone. When I have a family I'll certainly likely be getting a BMW SAV, but until then only the M2 would get my dollars as it drives as a BMW should. These rest of their vehicles are very competent but totally sterile to drive until driven at the limit. You used to be able to have fun with a base 328i or even X5 around town at legal speeds. Drive an F15/G05 after an E70, or G30/F10 after an E60, G20/F30 after an E90, etc. and they won't even feel like they were made by the same company.

I feel akin to a Rams or Chargers fan who had part of their soul/identity snatched from them. BMW has totally sold out on us.

With all this being said, Porsche is guilty too. It seems like unless you blow a lot of $ to get the souped up versions, their vehicles are also somewhat watered down for the masses.
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      08-22-2019, 04:29 PM   #124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gamb1t View Post
For those that romanticised for a modern e46... there's the 2-series.
BMW is catering to the rich Chinese market. They want tech, brand image, road presence (yay ugly grille), 3-letter feature acronyms and prestige. Driving dynamics? Have you seen Beijing traffic? And BMW is not the only car mfg chasing the Chinese cash.
You haven't said anything false, as the asian/middle east markets are much larger than they were a decade ago. Add to that the dominance of tech in the modern world. It's no wonder why BMWs cater to those demands now.

But the 2-series is mostly a snooze-fest until you get into the M2. It has nothing on the E46.
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      08-22-2019, 04:37 PM   #125
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it's faster just with less feeling, all modern car are going that way, so it seems...

someone comment about BMW is not that big anyway, so should aim for niche, my question would still be the same, should BMW be porsche? and without cross sharing on cost? I find it hard to believe that would be viable...
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      08-22-2019, 04:52 PM   #126
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
Make a retro E30 the likes of what GM and Ford did with the Camaro and Mustang.

My 2 cents.
Yeah... it's called the G20. The 3-series never left. It just evolved.
A square boxy 130hp car will guarantee to be doomed today. Unless you're Chery or TATA.


Quote:
BMW should have remained different and found a different way to be profitable.
Err.... like Mazda of the Japanese automakers? They are struggling too.

Maybe BMW needs to be bought over by a Chinese or Indian company. Look at Jag and Aston today. Even Volvo is having a bit of a revival. Oh poor Saab wish you hung on long enough for an asian suitor. Alas, you died a few years too early.
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      08-22-2019, 05:02 PM   #127
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Huz-Z View Post
All the guys driving Accords and Camrys would love to buy a BMW 3 or 4 series if they could afford it - so if BMW wants to sell to those guys, cut the price. Easy peasy. Pay a little more and get a lot more car. And attract Merc customers at the same time for a double-edged sword.
The problem for BMW of late is that BMWs in general especially the lower rung models are NOT A lot more car. Just saying
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      08-22-2019, 06:14 PM   #128
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Quote:
Originally Posted by duder13 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by BEM-S4 View Post
That's not really a fair comparison in the 330 vs 2-series debate. Your car is modern enough and quick enough that there's not such a huge jump from one to the other. The E46 by comparison feels archaic and slow compared to my M235. I'd venture even a track package 228 would best it. Don't get me wrong the E46 is a wonderful thing and it will never leave the family, but if I were out shopping today I would not look for another one if we didn't already have one.
I guess, but ask me in ten years and I’ll say the same. No nav screen, hydraulic steering, small size, manual transmission...it was the end of the “old style” era, and the 135i isn’t much faster than an E46 M3 (in stock form.) Plus, I’m sure lots of 128i owners would agree with me, and those cars aren’t super fast.
Not talking M3, we were discussing 330.
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      08-22-2019, 07:13 PM   #129
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There's just no reason to buy a BMW anymore.

They don't drive better than the competition.
They don't look better than the competition.
They aren't more reliable than the competition.
They aren't more luxurious than the competition.
They aren't cooler than the competition.
They aren't cheaper than the competition.

BMW used to be differentiated by driving dynamics. If you wanted a car that drove nicely, but was also reliable and luxurious enough to DD, BMW was your only option. No, this wasn't desirable to every customer in the world-- and that's fine. Every product does not to appeal to every person.

This was true of every BMW, not just the M cars. Every car had great steering feel, 50:50 weight distribution, good chassis feel, light weight for the practicality offered, rear wheel drive, a gimmick free, focused cockpit, with a responsive, linear NA engine, that could be paired to a manual transmission. Paying more got you that experience in a larger and/or faster car, but you got the above no matter what.

Because the above attracted car enthusiasts (who often also enjoy tinkering), it was also somewhat important that the cars were also easy to work on (no longer true).

During this period, their styling had a consistent form follows function mentality, which gave them a distinctive look compared to every other car on the road (also now abandoned).

This was the formula from 1962 (with the "New Class") till the early 2000s. Now it applies to... not a single car they make other than maybe the i3 (which is too ugly for most people to see past).

The above formula does not appeal to 100% of the population. It doesn't even appeal to the majority of it. BMW changed, trying to make a car for everyone. In the process, they made a lineup of generic cars that aren't better at anything and aren't particularly appealing to anyone. BMW id no longer differentiated, so now they're left scrounging for cheaper leases to get cars moved.
Have you ever driven an M2? It is the best handling and most powerful BMW that I have owned. And I have been driving BMWs since 1972. It also has had great reviews and even Comsumer Reports had it as the best car they ever tested. (Use to be a Tesla until Tesla problems appeared).
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      08-22-2019, 08:09 PM   #130
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BEM-S4 View Post
Not talking M3, we were discussing 330.
Yeah, I know, but, like I said, plenty of 128i owners feel the same way about newer cars, and the 128i isn't exactly super fast, either.
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      08-22-2019, 08:55 PM   #131
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Someone asked me what my next car was after the 128i sport 6mt.

I said there is none. I might ADD a car but I won't let this one go. Last NA, straight six, hydraulic steering, compact size, simple interior, drivers car....the way BMW should be.

The only other car I want to own one day is a Porsche.....
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      08-22-2019, 09:03 PM   #132
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Sadly...I totally agree.

There is not a single 2019 BMW I'd want to drive or own; besides maybe the M3/M4 CS if they made it with a manual (but they didn't)

The only hope I have is that in some years BMW will bring out some retro range celebrating their greatest past achievements and they will rehash some old ideas in some niche product. Otherwise things are heading in the wrong direction for enthusiasts...
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