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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > N57 / M57 Turbo Diesel Discussions - 335d > Hybrid Turbo options and comparisons



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      01-10-2016, 10:31 AM   #45
TDIwyse
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuikku View Post
.
The best lambda value to burn diesel, is of course 14,6.
But these cdiīs do not work properly any moore, too much smoke.

~Visible smoke "line" is lambda ~1,1 = AFR 16
You donīt see any smoke from mirrors, there are, but you donīt see, so it is not visible.

Best power comes, when lambda is ~1,05 => AFR about 15
Then you can clearly see thin haze from mirrors.
It do not yet disturb, but it is there.

This is when using diesel only, I have no real experience about additives.
And how do they react in different situations.
Thanks for sharing your experience.

This is a picture from trackside for the finish (basically same point on the track as above in-cab shot with logged gauges) on the exact same run (co-worker was filming). There was very little visible smoke for this pass. From past experience and logs at this gear/rpm, this should've been an AFR of mid/low 14's. I don't seem to get much visible smoke until I get to very low 14's.
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      01-10-2016, 12:00 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thecastle View Post
Quick question, why did you switch to stiffer valve springs? Where you experiencing valve float from too much back pressure due to too small of turbines on the stock turbos? Or was it for my rpm had room?
Just the opposite, intake pressure pushes on the intake valve. It is somewhat equivalent to having a lighter spring.
EBP is created by combustion pressure. Therefore, any pressure difference across the exhaust value can only be in favor of the valve closing.

Last edited by DWR; 01-10-2016 at 12:53 PM..
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      01-10-2016, 12:07 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thecastle View Post
Quick question, why did you switch to stiffer valve springs? Where you experiencing valve float from too much back pressure due to too small of turbines on the stock turbos? Or was it for my rpm had room?
Original were so loose.
2,5bar boost and ~3bar back pressure was enough to make valves float.
I had 400hp with orig springs too, but very very low rpm.
Yes, even the bigger turbine wasnīt too big and yes I wanted more useable rpmīs.

Here is the pic from the situation before new valve springs.
407hp/2887rpm and 976nm/2565rpm

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      01-10-2016, 12:48 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TDIwyse View Post
Thanks for sharing your experience.

This is a picture from trackside for the finish (basically same point on the track as above in-cab shot with logged gauges) on the exact same run (co-worker was filming). There was very little visible smoke for this pass. From past experience and logs at this gear/rpm, this should've been an AFR of mid/low 14's. I don't seem to get much visible smoke until I get to very low 14's.
Just so everyone is aware, O2 sensors have to be corrected for pressure. The further you get from stoichiometric, the larger the correct for a given pressure. Methanol does bring the smoke limit down. Methanol has no smoke limit, so the ratio of diesel to methanol does effect where the smoke limit is.
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      01-10-2016, 12:49 PM   #49
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We're having a great conversation here. Just want to put some of it into prespective. If you look at horspower to the wheels, things start to fall in line. Jarek's dyno seems to match the low end of what others report for stock numbers. He is reporting a "conservative" 390HP. That tune has no H20/meth and if it is like his other tunes runs pretty clean. BPC is showing 420HP, also without H20/meth. tuikku has shown RWHP peak of 413, using a "road dyno" acceleration test. TDIwyse uses a similar test and reports 440HP, with more modifications. TDIwyse has visible smoke at 440HP, tuikku has little to no visible smoke. Everyone is pegging the MAF. Boost pressures are different, but then so are the airflow mods. Only TDIwyse has published measured airflow at these levels.

I'm seeing very little disconnect here. I can ratinalize much of differences based on criteria like targeted lamba (aversion to smoke), level of modifications, fuels, intercooling, etc. What will BPC's or Jarek's tune do with a little H20/meth enhancement? What would TDIwyse's setup do without H20/meth? I think it is all quite predictable - and I think everyone listed above would agree with that statement.
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      01-10-2016, 12:57 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuikku View Post
Here is the pic from the situation before new valve springs.
407hp/2887rpm and 976nm/2565rpm

OK, so now we are comparing a dyno corrected number. The salient point is the shape of the curve. Just don't want folks to get spun around the axle about 407 vs 419 vs 454 vs 478 ...
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      01-10-2016, 01:03 PM   #51
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Id like to know what wastegate and spring tdiwyse is running in his car and how he's keeping the flapper closed
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      01-10-2016, 02:30 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by petey_highboost View Post
Id like to know what wastegate and spring tdiwyse is running in his car and how he's keeping the flapper closed
Sorry, I missed your earlier question. This is the EWG I'm using: http://www.turbosmartusa.com/product/ultra-gate38hp

The OEM vacuum line to the internal wastegate is cut and the end to the vac controller is plugged. The other end going to the IWG is plugged with a 1 way checkvalve. The checkvalve fights against the IWG being pushed open. However, if the manifold pressure were to get high enough to force the internal gate to open a little, the check valve will allow flow the other way to return it to the fully closed position so it doesn't develop a "rattle".
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      01-10-2016, 02:45 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TDIwyse View Post
Sorry, I missed your earlier question. This is the EWG I'm using: http://www.turbosmartusa.com/product/ultra-gate38hp

The OEM vacuum line to the internal wastegate is cut and the end to the vac controller is plugged. The other end going to the IWG is plugged with a 1 way checkvalve. The checkvalve fights against the IWG being pushed open. However, if the manifold pressure were to get high enough to force the internal gate to open a little, the check valve will allow flow the other way to return it to the fully closed position so it doesn't develop a "rattle".
All good. So your controlling the boost with a MBC im assuming?
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      01-10-2016, 08:53 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HeatherM35d View Post
The top end power is much better. Getting it to spool up is the tricky part, maybe we should move this conversation over to DWRs hybrid thread.
Doing a single turbo conversion sized for more top end than we're getting now is going to be extremely laggy on the street with any non vnt/vgt turbo. If you sized the turbine of a single wastegate turbo for response at 1500rpm, it's going to choke like crazy on top and require a vast majority of the exhaust flow to be wastegated. If the turbine is sized to favor ~600hp, then you'll have almost no boost below ~2500rpm.

There are some really neat medium/large frame vnt/vgt turbos that could be put on, but now you're introducing and tuning yet another level of complex electronics to properly control it. The street response would be far better than a wastegated single, but still nowhere near what we're used to.

I'd love to see a small kenne bell feeding the motor with a large bypass valve to spool a big single on the street. That would truly be the best of all worlds. The whine would kill the sleeper aspect though .
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      01-10-2016, 09:30 PM   #55
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Could do a twin scroll for the small one and then a much larger turbo in sequence. This car is so dependant on boost to maintain any type of drivability that you need a turbo kicking in as soon as possible. The car even idles at 1 or 2 psi.
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      01-10-2016, 09:35 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by Wrecker335d View Post
Could do a twin scroll for the small one and then a much larger turbo in sequence. This car is so dependant on boost to maintain any type of drivability that you need a turbo kicking in as soon as possible. The car even idles at 1 or 2 psi.
That's exactly why I'm planning to swap out the large turbo for a BW EFR unit and leave the stock small turbo in place. I tow too much to kill the low end response with a large single only. I imagine it will be a little tricky getting the switch over points tuned, but I think it's going to be the best compromise in the end between all out power, ease of install, low end response, and cost.
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      01-10-2016, 09:42 PM   #57
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Are the exhaust flanges on an m57 the same as an N54? I know tial makes a pretty badass cast manifold but I wonder if they would sell it seperatly or if it even fits..
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      01-10-2016, 10:10 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by petey_highboost
Are the exhaust flanges on an m57 the same as an N54? I know tial makes a pretty badass cast manifold but I wonder if they would sell it seperatly or if it even fits..
No they're not the same.
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      01-10-2016, 11:48 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitbread View Post
That's exactly why I'm planning to swap out the large turbo for a BW EFR unit and leave the stock small turbo in place.
Now, this is where it is starting to get much more interesting. I would love to hear more if possible.

Personally, as great all the "hybrid" turbos are, an EFR turbo will be a true kicker. It certainly will not be a bolt on and I'm wondering if you are planning to do an adapter plate (and then how does the cold side hooks-up) or a way to bolt up an EFR CHRA to the compressor and turbine housings (probably will have a different a/r though) that we already have, albeit with some machining.
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      01-11-2016, 12:09 AM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitbread View Post
That's exactly why I'm planning to swap out the large turbo for a BW EFR unit and leave the stock small turbo in place. I tow too much to kill the low end response with a large single only. I imagine it will be a little tricky getting the switch over points tuned, but I think it's going to be the best compromise in the end between all out power, ease of install, low end response, and cost.
I cannot recommend BW EFR, have tried 7163 in my MB E 320cdi.
Spools fast ~1600rpm =>
Gives a nice power.
Great turbo, in any meanings, but when I rice the fuel rate to ~500hp, it lasts about two hours.
Turbine slipped away ....
The price was outrageous and I donīt get any compensation.
Two hours costs more than two thousand, wonderfully expensive.

Some years ago I made two Mercedes with Holset 35, they work quite well.
But this BMW douple turbo system is far better.
I am going to built one to my MB with two Holsetīs, next summer.
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      01-11-2016, 12:18 AM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yozh View Post
Now, this is where it is starting to get much more interesting. I would love to hear more if possible.

Personally, as great all the "hybrid" turbos are, an EFR turbo will be a true kicker. It certainly will not be a bolt on and I'm wondering if you are planning to do an adapter plate (and then how does the cold side hooks-up) or a way to bolt up an EFR CHRA to the compressor and turbine housings (probably will have a different a/r though) that we already have, albeit with some machining.
The injectors of your cars do not support more, that 550-560hp power.
As far as I know, there are not suitable bigger.
I am quite sure, that hybrid, that I am using in my old crap BMW, can handle that, and works.
Look under bonnet, there are no room to easily make "own solutions".
But you get surely all my respect, if you do, no matter succeed or not.
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      01-11-2016, 12:36 AM   #62
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.
EFR 7163 and MB E 320cdi
Result is not so good, but WG leaks then, so quite ok in fackt.
After driving a couple of weeks this set up, I finally got Forge from there, your country.
After WG worked properly, I rice fuel rate and turbine says bye bye ...
Great turbo, if only it lasts.

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      01-11-2016, 12:40 AM   #63
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I'm not trying to get to 500hp or anything close. Just trying to find some alternatives to our tried and true K26. I have heard that HX35 are great but I am not sure how it will flow on our cars considering they are used on Cummins. Just want some options on the hot side of the turbo and may be a ball-bearing middle.

What happened to the turbine? It's a blended material on the EFRs.
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      01-11-2016, 12:42 AM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yozh View Post
Now, this is where it is starting to get much more interesting. I would love to hear more if possible.

Personally, as great all the "hybrid" turbos are, an EFR turbo will be a true kicker. It certainly will not be a bolt on and I'm wondering if you are planning to do an adapter plate (and then how does the cold side hooks-up) or a way to bolt up an EFR CHRA to the compressor and turbine housings (probably will have a different a/r though) that we already have, albeit with some machining.
I'm going to make an adapter plate that contains a the turbine diverter valve since bmw kindly stuck it in the turbine housing and not the manifold. The cold side piping will be custom obviously.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tuikku View Post
The injectors of your cars do not support more, that 550-560hp power.
As far as I know, there are not suitable bigger.
I am quite sure, that hybrid, that I am using in my old crap BMW, can handle that, and works.
Look under bonnet, there are no room to easily make "own solutions".
But you get surely all my respect, if you do, no matter succeed or not.
Sorry to hear you didn't have good luck with an EFR. I was told direct from the engineers at borg to install a rpm gauge if I thought I was even anywhere close to max shaft rpm according to the compressor map. So far, I've used 8 of them and never had a single issue as long as shaft speeds have been kept in check.

Getting bigger injectors here is no issue thanks to the pickup truck boys. A set of 6 piezo injectors enlarged to 30-45% over is less than $500 all in an done flow matched to within 1%.

If I could stuff all this in here, I'm not worried about fitting the EFR in my engine bay. This is twin 9180's on a 436in LSX. Dyno'ed 1794whp on 100LL. Was obviously not done in these pics, don't know what memory card the finished ones are on.




Last edited by Whitbread; 01-11-2016 at 12:49 AM..
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      01-11-2016, 01:47 AM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitbread View Post
I'm going to make an adapter plate that contains a the turbine diverter valve since bmw kindly stuck it in the turbine housing and not the manifold. The cold side piping will be custom obviously.
I really hope you make a few....
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      01-11-2016, 02:26 AM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitbread View Post
I was told direct from the engineers at borg to install a rpm gauge if I thought I was even anywhere close to max shaft rpm according to the compressor map.
Yes, and our turbos can be retrofitted. Drawings are available on their website. There is another method and that is to measure temps in and out to determine efficiency. Efficency directly correlates to compressor speed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitbread View Post
Getting bigger injectors here is no issue thanks to the pickup truck boys. A set of 6 piezo injectors enlarged to 30-45% over is less than $500 all in an done flow matched to within 1%.
Can you site a vendor or two? I looked into this and got a little stonewalled when I said,"BMW..." Also, you get the calibration coding for each injector, right?
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