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      08-11-2022, 08:20 AM   #1
Brendanssound
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Is my FRM Fried?



I've been attempting to diagnose a drivers seat that stopped working after i had the interior apart (by interior i mean passenger seat + back seat + centre console)

What i was doing in the first place was attempting to dry out my rear passenger side footwell after some really bad rain we had that got itself in through the rear door (i had removed the vapour barrier and never got around to replacing it)

While it was all apart i figured i'd fit the clean up the wiring for the CIC controller after installing an android carplay box.

All went relatively smoothly.. but when i put it back together the driver side seat wont move in any direction. Passenger seat still moves fine.

I've checked fuses, I've checked the voltage at the big yellow connector, I've tried another seat switch, another seat module, and even tried a different loom

I never played with the drivers seat.. nor do i think i played with any of the related wiring.. Though im thinking maybe somewhere along the way of playing with the controller and headunit i've broken a kcan wire?

But i also don't have footwell lights (the welcome lights/dome lights/indicators etc all work), or mirror controls. So now im wondering if ive fried FRM? Thoughts? it's kinda dumb i cant drive my car purely because my feet cant reach the pedal atm

Last edited by Brendanssound; 08-11-2022 at 08:26 AM..
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      08-11-2022, 12:06 PM   #2
ctuna
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You would get more replys on the general board.
The display you first get when you run the diagnostics with (scan of whole car)
the block diagram shows each module in green red or some inbetween color.
You can then click on it but yes it's probably fried or broken on some way.

this sub forum is suppose to be concentrated on the audio and entertainment part
of the car.

I thought the seats should work as long as they had power.
My feeling is that if it was working before you messed with it you probably didn't
plug something back in.
Are you sure you have a good battery? (As in have you measured the voltage)

https://www.e90post.com/forums/showt...+seat+retrofit
Has wiring diagrams
Attached Images
File Type: pdf E9x References, 220216 Revision-2-2-1.pdf (240.0 KB, 17 views)

Last edited by ctuna; 08-11-2022 at 12:19 PM..
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      08-11-2022, 12:38 PM   #3
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Will try and get a snip of that tomorrow. I do know the drivers seat module was in red, and CIC system in red. Pretty much the rest of it was yellow or green. Have read the massive retrofit power seats thread a few times now.. Seems like even just 12v should make the seat move.. though some are saying they needed kcan wiring to get it moving (In my case this was actually power (comfort) seats to power (sport) seats) so all the wiring is supposed to be there and these seats have been in my car for a year or 2 now and never failed me :/

Aside from the very unlikely even of all 4 of the seat motors dying at the same time i really am at a loss to why it wont move at all. Has to be something to do with kcan or frm at this point surely..

i think the KCAN-(CON) Error might be this:
https://www.m3post.com/forums/showpo...5inX_vEGOtcqvM

Will try disconnecting the android box and see if issue persists.. Not that that helps.. just one less error for me to try and narrow down.
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      08-11-2022, 12:47 PM   #4
ctuna
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You should do some voltage checks at the modules to make sure they
have power and check the appropriate fuses.
Always check the battery voltage as a low battery can cause all kind
of false codes. Check with a volt meter follow the voltage.
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      08-11-2022, 12:52 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ctuna View Post
this sub forum is suppose to be concentrated on the audio and entertainment part
of the car.
Is there a way to move thread or shall i just delete and start again?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ctuna View Post
I thought the seats should work as long as they had power.
Exactly!

Quote:
Originally Posted by ctuna View Post
My feeling is that if it was working before you messed with it you probably didn't
plug something back in.
That's how it seems.. But again.. didn't even touch the drivers side. I started off with taking out the passenger seat and pulling carpet up to dry everything out.. (was going to just swap the carpet till i saw what would be involved in doing that), Then headunit.. Moved the android box to the glovebox and rerouted cables to clean it all up a bit.

When trying to get the controller working in the first place there were issues with the pin for power not supplying power.. so we connected it (At the time) back to the CD Changer power cable to get it working.. I cleaned this up by rewiring it to power off the headunit.. While doing this i did let a wire slip out of my hand and it shorted.. replaced fuse.. all good again.. continued work..

Noticed some of the kcan wiring was a bit cut up at the back of headunit.. I had some factory loom left over from old unit so i heatshrinked some new wire on there and ran to controller.. at first didnt work.. ended up chasing that for a day before figuring out the controller adaptor loom supplied with android box is just a bit flaky

Also installed some paddle shifters with LCI Resister mod, cleaned up some "soft touch" plastics on wheel + the radio fascia

Basically after that i was putting stuff back together..

Then i noticed seat not moving..
(The footwell lights or power mirrors haven't worked in awhile.. i never bothered to fix)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ctuna View Post
Are you sure you have a good battery? (As in have you measured the voltage)
Happens to be a brand new battery. I have a good reputation for killing batteries. But I'm learning.. attaching the charger whenever i work on car and everything.
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      08-11-2022, 01:00 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ctuna View Post
You should do some voltage checks at the modules to make sure they
have power and check the appropriate fuses.
Always check the battery voltage as a low battery can cause all kind
of false codes. Check with a volt meter follow the voltage.
Checked every fuse.. 31, 32, 33,34, 36, 37, 41 (i know some of these are for stuff like heating.. i just stuck fuses in there anyway so that i have spares) but all of them read voltage

Big yellow plug under seat has voltage too

Tried another seat module (from original seat) and the switch itself.. nada.. Hell i even cut my fingers up disconnecting all the motors and replacing the loom (quite difficult when you cant actually undo the seat and move it)

At this point I am satisfied my issue is not under the seat.. and its not a fuse (Unless there's a different fuse i missed), so its either kcan wiring got messed up somewhere.. no idea how.. that loom appears to be generally behind the dash.. FRM or the electronics module.. or all of the seat motors happen to go from working perfectly fine to all dead
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      08-11-2022, 08:14 PM   #7
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Please let me know if you figure this out, I have similar issues with stuff connected to the FRM not working and DSC showing red on ista. over 20 codes, all showed up at the same time. Drivers mirror not working etc. Advice I got from forums members included replacing battery and all fuses and checking voltage at the terminals, but sadly it made no difference
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      08-12-2022, 08:04 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dfbpurcell View Post
Please let me know if you figure this out, I have similar issues with stuff connected to the FRM not working and DSC showing red on ista. over 20 codes, all showed up at the same time. Drivers mirror not working etc. Advice I got from forums members included replacing battery and all fuses and checking voltage at the terminals, but sadly it made no difference
I'm clearly no expert on the matter but that to me definately sounds like frm module went bye bye. I'm assuming the 20 codes that showed up are FRM related?
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      08-12-2022, 02:29 PM   #9
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You might try disconnecting the Head Unit if that is what you where playing with
and rerunning diagnostic. The idea being that if there is something loading down
the Can Bus and you disconnect it the other things start working.

The general rule of thumb is if you where doing something and things go bad you back
up until things change or are fixed.
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      08-13-2022, 09:10 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ctuna View Post
You might try disconnecting the Head Unit if that is what you where playing with
and rerunning diagnostic. The idea being that if there is something loading down
the Can Bus and you disconnect it the other things start working.
Is that a thing? I know the MOST Bus will stop working if 1 thing is not operating. I did not know the same can be said about the can bus. Either way I'm going to try it tomorrow. I also want to check voltage at the seats bus wires and see if theres any life there... I have so far only checked voltage is definately present.
I spent today replacing the footwell module (i probably could have just reset the short circuit counter but the FRM in donor car was a FRM2 so free upgrade.. AND i replaced the JBE module to rule that out. Turned out to be a good idea... i found a bit of corrosion on like 3 pins in one corner..
I now have footwell lights.. still no side view mirror.. Haven't re-read the error codes again so far to see whats left. I just desperately need my seat to work.. and at this point I'm pretty convinced those can wires are not doing what they're meant to..

On a side note.. if you ctuna or anyone else following along knows where exactly the factory drivers seat wiring runs along.. Would save me a bunch of time..
Else I'm going to rip carpet from the donor car (theres no dash anyway since i already pinched that for mine) and manually trace it through and find out what i've broken.

Anyone else reading this that's about to do a retrofit.. for dash/headlights/radio.. whatever.. take my advice.. dont mess about and just transfer EVERYTHING if you can.. Would have saved me a bunch of trouble.
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      08-14-2022, 02:11 AM   #11
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Removed radio today and got more pretty errors.. But no seat functionality

Checked voltage at the plug going into seat (bus wires) and measured 4.6v on green wire 0.5v on orange.. This would suggest (to me) can bus wires are intact? I measured the same at the cic controller.

I pulled the android piggyback box out and undid everything i touched.. Still nothing..

If anyone has a theory.. I'm listening.. until then.. I'll be over here sooking in a corner about how i cant drive my car because of a damn seat!!
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      08-14-2022, 05:00 AM   #12
ctuna
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broken wire or connector is what I would suspect first or smashed
connector. On those piggy back android units you usually have to transfer
the Most Connector to the new andriod harness.
Kcan bus problem could cause multiple modules to be down.
Be sure to check your battery a voltage below 12 can cause phantom
error's on diagnositc's

If you dissconect a seat with the battery connected it can generate and seat
belt error code that has to be reset.

If front seats are removed and reinstalled if you tighten the hold down screws to
tight and the worm gear drive for foward and back will be frozen.
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      08-14-2022, 06:27 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ctuna View Post
broken wire or connector is what I would suspect first or smashed connector.
Great.. but where? I've checked the big yellow plug and swapped the loom under the seats that go to every motor (with seat still installed and some big fingers mind you.. unpleasant job). This included swapping the module over for another one as well. And the switch panel on side of seat (swapped all back once it didn't work)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ctuna View Post
On those piggy back android units you usually have to transfer
the Most Connector to the new Android harness.
Correct. So I took it all out today.. and it may not go back in to be honest now that I've heard the audio quality for myself and learnt about "Mr12Volt"

Quote:
Originally Posted by ctuna View Post
Kcan bus problem could cause multiple modules to be down.
I definitely suspect a kcan issue.. ISTA even says "Communication" issue which makes me think it has to be kcan related.. BUT see earlier post about seeing voltage on kcan line.. is that a normal reading? Not sure.. everyone says JBE is the kcan Gateway.. so I put jbe from donor car in and still no dice..

Quote:
Originally Posted by ctuna View Post
Be sure to check your battery a voltage below 12 can cause phantom error's on diagnostics

If you disconnect a seat with the battery connected it can generate and seat
belt error code that has to be reset.
Yes I have a airbag code and pretty sure I saw a belt tensioner error in ISTA.. Was prepared to clear that when all is said and done but I just don't know how this is stopping my seat from moving at all

Quote:
Originally Posted by ctuna View Post
If front seats are removed and reinstalled if you tighten the hold down screws to tight and the worm gear drive for forward and back will be frozen.
And up/down/bolster adjustment..? Because in my case drivers seat is completely dead. I actually never touched the drivers seat.. I had set drivers seat all the way back to get more clearance under the dash while running wires for the paddle shifters retrofit. Seat has never moved since.. totally dead.. no click or anything. Passenger seat is still absolutely fine.

Short of factory coding the frm2 (haven't done so already) I'm out of ideas.. maybe swap the fuse box over? But I have voltage at the plug.. so.. that makes no sense either.

The only idea I have left is I have 2 bad seat modules.. what are the odds.. (1 of which should be working since it was when I swapped the seats in first place)

Or the kcan bus is not waking the seat (again.. there's voltage there so to me that sounds like wire is not broken)

I'll take any ideas at this point
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      08-14-2022, 12:23 PM   #14
ctuna
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To really check a kcan bus you would need an oscilloscope.
Or something that would check and capture codes.
There should be some procedures in Ista D for doing that.
try a search on kcan or dcan.

If you search on the net there are a bunch of ytube video's on can bus checking.

Last edited by ctuna; 08-14-2022 at 12:41 PM..
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      08-14-2022, 12:33 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ctuna View Post
To really check a kcan bus you would need an oscilloscope.
Or something that would check and capture codes.
Think it would be worthwhile cutting into the seat kcan wires and jumping them to the controller wires?

I guess its either that or rip up the carpet.. replace the whole loom. Really didn't want to take that path since a)It still does not work or b)as far as i can tell that loom runs from drivers seat to up deep behind the dash.. which again.. i didn't really touch so i find it hard to accept that i've clipped a wire there.

I noticed there's seperate fuses for "Seat module" and "Front Seat Control"

See Here

And that makes me very curious.. why? how exactly does it all talk? Is one of the other wires (not the brown/red positive or brown ground) maybe also supposed to be getting voltage but not?

I would read a bible sized pdf of how the seats work if i could find one
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      08-14-2022, 01:53 PM   #16
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You can search ista for diagrams and trouble shooting procedures .
Ista has all the block diagrams with pin outs for circuit boards.
Block diagrams is about as deep as it goes.
If you start cutting wires you will make a terrible mess most likely .
Using T taps would be better worst case.
I wouldn't jump anything .

If you have to these are the best taps
https://www.posi-products.com/posiplug.html

Last edited by ctuna; 08-14-2022 at 02:04 PM..
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      08-14-2022, 04:53 PM   #17
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      08-14-2022, 05:04 PM   #18
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Quite confusing to understand what is going on and i don't understand the goal.
There have been some things randomly done behind the scene and fault codes number is multiplying.

There's whole section of modules out of order and it is not clear if they are temporary or actual codes.
Was everything put back into the car and then scanned or you did scanning whilst the CIC was disconnected?

Anyways if the only goal is to get driver seat moving

Does your seat module get +12V? ("a new battery" is not quite helpful response).
Is the GND good?

If yes

Take seat motor out.
Apply 12 volts to it and see if it is working or not.

CAN should be only for the luxury part where it remembers position for different keyfobs.

CAN is essentially a long wire connecting different modules together. Similar principle to MOST loop.
In this case going from seat module to JBE to FRM.

As i understand you did a retrofit and new seats ain't working?
If this is the case you might be missing CAN wires/not connected as per schematics and i do remember i had to change seat module wires if retrofitted sport seats with powered lumbar support.

You're not the first one that moves seat far back and it stops working = broken wiring.
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      08-14-2022, 07:44 PM   #19
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No reason to delete the thread just start a new one.
If you are Lucky George will respond .
George give the best technical help but he doesn't hang out on the
stereo board.
He generally likes to extended technical help if you are not
dense and follow the steps he outlines.
A lot of times people just don't want to do things like pull out a meter
and measure voltage or read theory pdf's
So any instruction just become and exercise in futility .

The thing is you have to be clear about everything you did.
What you started with what you changed etc etc..

gbalthrop is the handle. (for george)

You say you had water was the car flooded.?
If so how much how deep was the water.

Last edited by ctuna; 08-14-2022 at 07:52 PM..
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      08-15-2022, 10:37 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ctuna View Post
No reason to delete the thread just start a new one.
Done
https://www.e90post.com/forums/showp...98&postcount=1

Quote:
Originally Posted by ctuna View Post
A lot of times people just don't want to do things like pull out a meter
and measure voltage or read theory pdf's. So any instruction just become and exercise in futility .
I work in IT.. There's generally a lot of reading to do in that field of work. And a lot of people that you can give good advice too but it does not peak there interest enough to have a go

Quote:
Originally Posted by ctuna View Post
The thing is you have to be clear about everything you did.
What you started with what you changed etc etc..
I have basically written a full history of my ownership and everything done in linked new thread.. Should be sufficient.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ctuna View Post
You say you had water was the car flooded.?
If so how much how deep was the water.
Not really.. it was like a week long of rain so i don't know if it WAS worse but had cleared up by the time i got to it. But by then it was basically just enough to splash your hand in.. Not really even reached the top layer of the carpet.. just absorbed up into the foam bit. And pretty much exclusively in the rear passenger footwell.
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