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      08-24-2014, 12:46 PM   #1
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dry sump system design

I'm looking to put something together, but the more searching I do, the more details I find that I was previously unaware of. So, that being said, any design criteria or links to good info you guys have would be hugely helpful.
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      08-24-2014, 06:26 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by '___' View Post
I'm looking to put something together, but the more searching I do, the more details I find that I was previously unaware of. So, that being said, any design criteria or links to good info you guys have would be hugely helpful.
Lots of info in this paper. http://dspace.mit.edu/bitstream/hand...0/77758784.pdf

Best pumps hands down. http://www.daileyengineering.com/dai...ering_home.htm

You pretty much want to target 15" have as many stages as required to evacuate as much oil as possible. An oil separator/storage tank is a must to eliminate as much froth as possible the more volume the more cooling. You also want to have the thermostat and cooler in one of two places after scavenge stages(easier to plumb lose effeicency due to froth) or after supply stage(a little harder to plumb and need low pressure drop cooler/thermo). Also you need a redesigned pcv/valve cover to go along with it.

I was planing to build a sheet metal pan as we can't really lower the motor much more as of yet. I was going with a 4/5 stage pump with a rear accessory drive for and run a power-steering pump off the rear and put the whole assembly in the power-steering location. Separator tank can go anywhere was planing on mounting in the rear of the car.

Was looking at this for the oil cooler and thermostat. Minus the adapter for the 6.0l it flows a ton and cools well I have one on my diesel.

http://www.bulletproofdiesel.com/pro...heavy-duty.htm

Let me know if you get something working / End up having machine time for a pan or valve cover.

Edit: Also look into machining a delete plate for the factory oil block so we can run a better runner on cyl 1. I was going to cobble something together but you have access to some nice toys that I don't have. Still haven't pushed the button on a 3d printer
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Last edited by Ingeniator; 08-24-2014 at 06:40 PM.
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      08-24-2014, 07:12 PM   #3
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Yeah, I've gathered a decent amount of the info you suggest. I was also thinking about putting the swirl pot and breather in the rear as well...probably on the driver's side of the trunk tray. As far as scavenger stages go, I'd love to know if there is some sort of equation used to determine the number of stages needed and the drive ratio so that you are sucking all the oil and enough air to pull 12-15" of vacuum. As for Dailey, I'd like to mimic their style pans and just machine it two piece like they do. I'm pretty sure the machines at work have a big enough bed, and with as shallow as they are, I bet it would only take a couple hours of machine time after setup, and with a real small step over...which they don't use.

I'll read that paper tonight or tomorrow and then post up any more questions it brings up. In the meantime, the rear driven PS pump is a really good idea...didn't think about that. Also, why would we need a new valve cover, and where does the feed/return line from the swirl pot go?

Does it go scavenge, air/oil separator, swirl pot, feed line, pump, remote filter, then to the return in the motor where the oil filter housing returns the oil to?
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      08-24-2014, 07:31 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by '___' View Post
Yeah, I've gathered a decent amount of the info you suggest. I was also thinking about putting the swirl pot and breather in the rear as well...probably on the driver's side of the trunk tray. As far as scavenger stages go, I'd love to know if there is some sort of equation used to determine the number of stages needed and the drive ratio so that you are sucking all the oil and enough air to pull 12-15" of vacuum. As for Dailey, I'd like to mimic their style pans and just machine it two piece like they do. I'm pretty sure the machines at work have a big enough bed, and with as shallow as they are, I bet it would only take a couple hours of machine time after setup, and with a real small step over...which they don't use.

I'll read that paper tonight or tomorrow and then post up any more questions it brings up. In the meantime, the rear driven PS pump is a really good idea...didn't think about that. Also, why would we need a new valve cover, and where does the feed/return line from the swirl pot go?

Does it go scavenge, air/oil separator, swirl pot, feed line, pump, remote filter, then to the return in the motor where the oil filter housing returns the oil to?
Flow should be scavenge stages, air/oil separator stage,(cooler option1), swirl pot/storage tank, feed line, supply pump, remote filter, (cooler option2), Supply to motor in bottom of pan/turbo/oil squirters in valve cover.

The PCV needs to be eliminated to run that much vacuum. We should size the pump on the large side and use a vacuum breaker. Because we eliminate the pcv recovery oiling a few oil squirters should be added to the valve cover. Filter block off just eliminates the oil filter on top of the motor.

I'm glad someone else is interested enough to be serious about this.

Edit: I realized I didn't really answer the sizing question. I haven't really seen any equations. But the pump should be sized for the total flow of oil required for the motor + the air volume to achieve required vacuum. Boosted motors have more leakage so require more stages.
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09 135I M (VK80379) 6MT. Race Project car. 1) Install Cobb/piggyback? and Motiv 600 Kit[HTA3076R w/ tial .82] 2) JRZ or Moton suspension. 3) Build high flow intake manifold with multi-port fuel and relocate OFH 4) Build full cage 5) Complete staged twin setup with HTA4205R [w/Tial 1.16] 6) Complete dry sump system

Last edited by Ingeniator; 08-24-2014 at 08:04 PM.
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      08-24-2014, 11:18 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ingeniator View Post
Flow should be scavenge stages, air/oil separator stage,(cooler option1), swirl pot/storage tank, feed line, supply pump, remote filter, (cooler option2), Supply to motor in bottom of pan/turbo/oil squirters in valve cover.

The PCV needs to be eliminated to run that much vacuum. We should size the pump on the large side and use a vacuum breaker. Because we eliminate the pcv recovery oiling a few oil squirters should be added to the valve cover. Filter block off just eliminates the oil filter on top of the motor.

I'm glad someone else is interested enough to be serious about this.

Edit: I realized I didn't really answer the sizing question. I haven't really seen any equations. But the pump should be sized for the total flow of oil required for the motor + the air volume to achieve required vacuum. Boosted motors have more leakage so require more stages.
That MIT paper was a decent read. So, my take away so far is:

1) Make sure the scavenge pump(s) are able to out flow the supply pump and just run a check valve set at the desired crankcase vacuum.

2) Make sure passages between dry sump pan for scavenging collect oil from all areas that see oil in driving conditions.

3) laser cutting a thin piece of sheet metal to verify the bolt pattern will be helpful.

Now for questions...

How do you determine line size? 10,12,16 AN?
How would you add oil squirters to a valve cover?
Does the N54 already have a windage baffle?
Does the N54 have wrist pin squirters?

That's about all I have at the moment. Chris mailed me his old non oil cooler oil filter housing. Hopefully, I can have that scanned this week and get started on a block off plate for that that will still utilize the factory radiator hose connection. I should probably look into some other OEM upper radiator hoses too for length options...
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      08-25-2014, 01:45 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by '___' View Post
That MIT paper was a decent read. So, my take away so far is:

1) Make sure the scavenge pump(s) are able to out flow the supply pump and just run a check valve set at the desired crankcase vacuum.

2) Make sure passages between dry sump pan for scavenging collect oil from all areas that see oil in driving conditions.

3) laser cutting a thin piece of sheet metal to verify the bolt pattern will be helpful.

Now for questions...

How do you determine line size? 10,12,16 AN?
How would you add oil squirters to a valve cover?
Does the N54 already have a windage baffle?
Does the N54 have wrist pin squirters?

That's about all I have at the moment. Chris mailed me his old non oil cooler oil filter housing. Hopefully, I can have that scanned this week and get started on a block off plate for that that will still utilize the factory radiator hose connection. I should probably look into some other OEM upper radiator hoses too for length options...
We would need to size the lines based on flow but I think AN8 or AN10 would be adequate for the majority of the lines.
Adding oil squirters to a valve cover is as simple as running some 1/4 or 1/8th tubing and drilling for spray pattern.
Windage baffle is a yes as far as I can tell.

Oil squirters for wristpins/pistons are a yes(http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=665434)
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      08-25-2014, 08:46 AM   #7
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The stock N54 oil pan does not have any sort of baffling.

Good luck with this project!

Neil
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      08-25-2014, 09:51 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MDORPHN View Post
The stock N54 oil pan does not have any sort of baffling.

Good luck with this project!

Neil
Thanks! I'm thinking pan design and machining should be super easy, as well as the ofh block of plate. Also, once it's out of the way, a front mounted throttle body style manifold could be used and just a downward turned 90* charge pipe off the Tb to the intercooler. This might free up plenty of room on that side of the engine bay to keep the dry sump swirl pot up front and keep line costs, weight, and oil capacity down a bit. The only downside I see to that idea is that the air/oil separators are going to have to be very very efficient with such short line runs.

You do a lot of racing, do you have any sources of info you would recommend?
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      08-25-2014, 10:29 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by '___' View Post
Thanks! I'm thinking pan design and machining should be super easy, as well as the ofh block of plate. Also, once it's out of the way, a front mounted throttle body style manifold could be used and just a downward turned 90* charge pipe off the Tb to the intercooler. This might free up plenty of room on that side of the engine bay to keep the dry sump swirl pot up front and keep line costs, weight, and oil capacity down a bit. The only downside I see to that idea is that the air/oil separators are going to have to be very very efficient with such short line runs.

You do a lot of racing, do you have any sources of info you would recommend?
RRT Racing (in Dulles/Sterling, VA) baffled the oil pan on my car and VAC (in Phila) based the kit that they're now selling on RRT's design.

I'll see if I can dig up a thread on this that had pix.

Neil
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      08-25-2014, 11:57 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MDORPHN View Post
The stock N54 oil pan does not have any sort of baffling.

Good luck with this project!

Neil
When he was asking about a windage baffle. I assumed he was referring to the one bolted to the bottom of the bed plate. A windage baffle is also called a crank scraper. The baffle you are referring to is to keep oil in the sump under acceleration.
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      08-25-2014, 02:04 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ingeniator View Post
When he was asking about a windage baffle. I assumed he was referring to the one bolted to the bottom of the bed plate. A windage baffle is also called a crank scraper. The baffle you are referring to is to keep oil in the sump under acceleration.
You were correct. I just figured there may still be useful info in whatever links he provides.
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      08-25-2014, 02:16 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ingeniator View Post
When he was asking about a windage baffle. I assumed he was referring to the one bolted to the bottom of the bed plate. A windage baffle is also called a crank scraper. The baffle you are referring to is to keep oil in the sump under acceleration.
Quite right, I glossed over it.

BTW, the oil pan baffle is also useful in high-G cornering

Neil
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      08-25-2014, 02:23 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MDORPHN View Post
Quite right, I glossed over it.

BTW, the oil pan baffle is also useful in high-G cornering

Neil
You mean lateral acceleration

Also as for the oil/air separation. The mechanical separation performed by the air/oil separator stage eliminates most of problems.
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      08-25-2014, 06:54 PM   #14
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You mean lateral acceleration

Also as for the oil/air separation. The mechanical separation performed by the air/oil separator stage eliminates most of problems.
Searching, searching, searching and still I cannot find info on how to plumb a pressure side back into the engine correctly...nor can I find info on how to properly size the lines, how many stages to run (I'm thinking 5, 1 for each two cylinder pairs, a dedicated turbo return and an extra one on the back of the pan), or how large of a capacity tank will be needed.

I am going to add a picture of the style pan that I plan on making though just to add a little spice and eye candy.



I really dig the idea of an integrated pump/pan unit, but I need info on how to properly size the channels from the oil pickups that are collecting the scraped oil from the windage tray...which reminds me that I need images of the windage tray so I can approximate where the scraped oil is going to be flung. The last thing I want to do is have a shallow ass pan fill up because the scavenge pump can't suck it out fast enough and the run the external tank dry because all the freaking oil is sloshing around in the crankcase!
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      08-25-2014, 08:52 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by '___' View Post
Searching, searching, searching and still I cannot find info on how to plumb a pressure side back into the engine correctly...nor can I find info on how to properly size the lines, how many stages to run (I'm thinking 5, 1 for each two cylinder pairs, a dedicated turbo return and an extra one on the back of the pan), or how large of a capacity tank will be needed.

I am going to add a picture of the style pan that I plan on making though just to add a little spice and eye candy.



I really dig the idea of an integrated pump/pan unit, but I need info on how to properly size the channels from the oil pickups that are collecting the scraped oil from the windage tray...which reminds me that I need images of the windage tray so I can approximate where the scraped oil is going to be flung. The last thing I want to do is have a shallow ass pan fill up because the scavenge pump can't suck it out fast enough and the run the external tank dry because all the freaking oil is sloshing around in the crankcase!
I was talking to Bill Dailey(info@daileyengineering.com) he is helpful if you ask the right questions. Pressure stage needs to be plumbed back in to the old outlet from the stock oil pump on most motors but I found this.

Quote:
The pendulum-slide pump delivers the oil from the oil sump to the oil filter. A thermostat flanged to the oil-filter housing admits the oil to the engine-oil cooler.
From that statement from the engine management manual. The stock flow is sump, oil pump, oil filter/thermostat loop/ users. If that is the case we have two options. Supply the oil into the stock pump discharge or supply oil into the port downstream of the ofh(which is downstream port on the block though).

The amount of returns sounds good space them under or between cylinders depending on numbers. Making the pan too shallow is not an issue because you always size the scavenge stages to outflow the pressure stage by 30-40%. A dedicated turbo return may put strain on the oil seals for the turbo not sure on that one. The swirl pot storage tank needs to be sized for the oil volume of the system. You want it as big as you can but keep weight and space in check. The larger the oil volume in the loop the more time the oil has to deaerate but with a oil/air separator stage on the pump your total volume can go down.

Question: Does anyone know the circulation rate of the current oil pump on the N54? This is critical to size the pump correctly. If not we can probably just use the S54 as reference.
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