[CobraMarty]

Originally Posted by vha27

Also I didn't know this, but apparently the test motor running the 325-350hp from the initial testing of this kit ran great for a few months then got toasted, not exactly sure what happened.

This is not good news.
Fueling? Timing? Detonation? Piston break?

I'm looking into an additional secondary set of port injectors to use for fueling which will be fully controlled with a programmable additional injector controller. This way, Don't need to do any reprogramming of the stock DME/ECU and rely on the stock or bigger injectors.

[vha27]

Gintani works with I believe BMW V8/V10 builds. I'm just saying that the injectors that we're talking about from FiveO as a suitable replacement, Rhombus had idling issues apparently running them, and Gintani claims they use them with no issues, but only on their V8/V10 builds, not a N52 engine

I believe the VT1 and VT1+ kit is completely safe and reliable. I'm just saying the only reason we're looking for injectors is to push our motors to the 300-350 hp range. The motor can handle 10psi and develop that kinda power. The question is, what is the long term reliability. ESS is more concerned with having a reliable product for N52 customers that will last I would hope the life of the car, rather than saying we can produce 100+ hp over stock and it may last only a few months. The initial test car showed those numbers, and sustained months of testing at that level of power. Everything seemed ok, so out came the announcement and dyno sheets that 100+ hp over stock is achievable. Then one day poof, motor gave out. They had to rethink, redesign, and remap everything for long term use, and here we are VT1 and VT1+. Apparently the motor that blew had only about ~6000 miles on it. Not addding enough fuel was not the issue as they were running different injectors. It seems there was a physical limit to what the motor can take without internal modifications.

[GTKrockeTT]

Originally Posted by 631twentyeighteye

I'm curious if they'd work with the mapleridge headers. They're basically the stock design collectors minus the cats..

didn't work for me, had to take the headers out.

[CobraMarty]

That was always my concern, 8-10 pounds non-intercooled 100+hp.

I am sure their IATs were well over 200*F if not closer to 250+*F.
We have seen similar temps on other non-intercooled supercharged 6-10 pounds boost.

[Nordkeyz73]

IAT rule of thumb is +10˚F per PSI. So 50˚F increase minus the colder air since relocating the filter to the lower bumper. So let's say a 35˚F increase. Sounds negligible.

[CobraMarty]

Originally Posted by Nordkeyz73

IAT rule of thumb is +10˚F per PSI. So 50˚F increase minus the colder air since relocating the filter to the lower bumper. So let's say a 35˚F increase. Sounds negligible.

That's not even close. I've done the measurements.

Wrong rule and wrong thumb.
For every 10*F decrease in IAT = 1% increase in power. Yes rule of thumb.

Naturally aspirated everyday average driving will see IATs 20-30* over ambient even with the best CAI. Less increase at freeway speeds, more increase in stop and go use.

Forced induction- PV=nRT increase pressure = increased temperature
6 pounds boost will increase the compressed air temp 100-130*F depending on the efficiency of the blower. This increase temp is on top of ambient + normal IAT increase over ambient seen in N/A.

So on a 70* day, you might see average 100* IATs naturally aspirated and with 6 pounds boost another +100-130* increase to 200-230*F. 10 pounds boost, even higher temps.

Now an intercooler will knock about 100*F out of the temps bringing it back down to 100-130*F IATs which is much safer. Meth will knock more *F out of the charged IATs and can bring charged IATs back down to just 30*F over ambient.

10 pounds of non-intercooled boost will have IATs well over 200*F and probably more closer to 250*F.

This is a guaranteed recipe for disaster.

[Nordkeyz73]

Originally Posted by CobraMarty

Wrong rule and wrong thumb.

Ok ok ok. The don't be dissin' my thumb But anyway, this makes me wonder if the VT1 could easily be retrofitted with some sort of charge cooler if there's enough room.

[rhombus]

Originally Posted by CobraMarty

That's not even close. I've done the measurements.

Wrong rule and wrong thumb.
For every 10*F decrease in IAT = 1% increase in power. Yes rule of thumb.

Naturally aspirated everyday average driving will see IATs 20-30* over ambient even with the best CAI. Less increase at freeway speeds, more increase in stop and go use.

Forced induction- PV=nRT increase pressure = increased temperature
6 pounds boost will increase the compressed air temp 100-130*F depending on the efficiency of the blower. This increase temp is on top of ambient + normal IAT increase over ambient seen in N/A.

So on a 70* day, you might see average 100* IATs naturally aspirated and with 6 pounds boost another +100-130* increase to 200-230*F. 10 pounds boost, even higher temps.

Now an intercooler will knock about 100*F out of the temps bringing it back down to 100-130*F IATs which is much safer. Meth will knock more *F out of the charged IATs and can bring charged IATs back down to just 30*F over ambient.

10 pounds of non-intercooled boost will have IATs well over 200*F and probably more closer to 250*F.

This is a guaranteed recipe for disaster.

At 7psi, there is a 90degF temperature increase at 73% efficiency on the compressor map.

http://www.vortechsuperchargers.com/pdf/si_cmap.pdf
This is the compressor map. Pressure ration for 7psi is 1.4 (at redline)

At 5psi there is a 67degF temp rise @ 73% efficiency.

Once again, only at redline.

Since we start at 0psi and ramp to 7psi at redline, and that boost starts around 2000rpm; I put the numbers into my compressor calculator and here is a quick calculation:

1000rpm - 12degF rise
2000 - 26degF
3000 - 38degF
4000 - 47degF
5000 - 63degF
6000 - 72degF
7000 - 90degF


An intercooler, at 100% efficiency can only yield a temp drop that is equal to the temp differential between ambient and the pre-IC air temp. No intercooler is 100% efficient. Air-to-Air intercoolers are normally 60-70% efficient. So in my example above, at max efficiency, a FMIC would reduce the temp at redline 63deg and only 32deg at 4000rpm. The benifits below 4000rpm would be negligible.

[SDemetris]

Originally Posted by _Ryan_

They aren't keen to share.

They why dont you for them?
Knowing bmw, probably a rod bearing.

[Seattlesquash]

Originally Posted by rhombus

At 7psi, there is a 90degF temperature increase at 73% efficiency on the compressor map.

http://www.vortechsuperchargers.com/pdf/si_cmap.pdf
This is the compressor map. Pressure ration for 7psi is 1.4 (at redline)

At 5psi there is a 67degF temp rise @ 73% efficiency.

Once again, only at redline.

Since we start at 0psi and ramp to 7psi at redline, and that boost starts around 2000rpm; I put the numbers into my compressor calculator and here is a quick calculation:

1000rpm - 12degF rise
2000 - 26degF
3000 - 38degF
4000 - 47degF
5000 - 63degF
6000 - 72degF
7000 - 90degF


An intercooler, at 100% efficiency can only yield a temp drop that is equal to the temp differential between ambient and the pre-IC air temp. No intercooler is 100% efficient. Air-to-Air intercoolers are normally 60-70% efficient. So in my example above, at max efficiency, a FMIC would reduce the temp at redline 63deg and only 32deg at 4000rpm. The benifits below 4000rpm would be negligible.

You guys know way to much about this, but impressive. I will celebrate your power knowledge on the matter with a cold beer!

[CobraMarty]

OOPS, except the temps in the Vortech compressor map are KELVIN not Fahrenheit.
*F = 9/5 *K

At 7psi, there is a 90deg K temperature increase at 73% efficiency on the compressor map
90 deg K = 9/5x90 = 162 deg F increase in temp. + ambient temp = charge intake air temp in a non-intercooler system.

And no compressor ever follows those 'lab' charts or efficiency. Always worse than the charts say.

Here is a decent read-
http://www.enginebasics.com/Advanced...20Test%20.html

[CobraMarty]

I've had intercoolers drop the charge intake air temps BELOW ambient.

[rhombus]

Originally Posted by CobraMarty

OOPS, except the temps in the Vortech compressor map are KELVIN not Fahrenheit.
*F = 9/5 *K

At 7psi, there is a 90deg K temperature increase at 73% efficiency on the compressor map
90 deg K = 9/5x90 = 162 deg F increase in temp. + ambient temp = charge intake air temp in a non-intercooler system.

And no compressor ever follows those 'lab' charts or efficiency. Always worse than the charts say.

Here is a decent read-
http://www.enginebasics.com/Advanced...20Test%20.html

Thats not correct. At a 1.4 pressure ratio on the map, there is a ~38degK Delta. Which calculates out to a 100degF delta (inlet to outlet rise)

I did calculations to get my numbers (and did them using F), didnt go by the delta listed on the map anyway.

[CobraMarty]

Yep,

1.4 pressure ratio is not even 6 pounds boost (actually 5.88 pounds)

ambient 80*F + 20*F air heated to get to turbo/SC inlet + 100*F delta = 200*F and probably more.

8-10 pounds boost, 1.55-1.68 pressure ratio, the delta temp (heat added) is even higher. (about delta 65*K = 117*F)

Just saying, In an engine not originally intended for boost, anything more than 5-6 pounds boost in a NON-Intercooled system is a guarantee failure in the future.

Heat is your enemy. High charge IATs, over 200*F and especially over 250*F is unacceptable and will hurt the engine.

[rhombus]

Originally Posted by CobraMarty

Yep,

1.4 pressure ratio is not even 6 pounds boost

ambient 80*F + 20*F air heated to get to turbo/SC inlet + 100*F delta = 200*F and probably more.

8-10 pounds boost, 1.55-1.68 pressure ratio, the delta temp (heat added) is even higher.

Just saying, In an engine not originally intended for boost, anything more than 5-6 pounds boost in a NON-Intercooled system is a guarantee failure in the future.

Heat is your enemy. High charge IATs, over 200*F and especially over 250*F is unacceptable and will hurt the engine.

While I agree that on a 100deg day, the post SC air temp will be almost 200degF, it will only be that at redline. The rest of the RPM range will be between 100degF-200degF IAT depending on RPM.

I just dont see this as a problem since we are not operating the car at redline in a steady state. Nor is the car running peak boost all the time. If this were a turbo setup, it would make more sense to intercool it even at lower boosts since the turbo will be increasing the air temps consistently across the rpm range.

M3 guys often prefer the non-ic SC setups when tracking the car in desert climates. No issues with engine reliability without the IC and low boost.

[CobraMarty]

The best thing anyone can do is plug in a OBD2 scanner and watch your stock IATs in different driving conditions. You will be surprised. This is for a non-SC'ed car. The stock IAT sensor is mounted after the air filter and before the TB.

On a SC'ed car, when accelerating, 1st to 4th gear runs, you hit near redline 4 times and 4 times/occasions will see well over 200*F. All you need is one time to break/blow the engine.

[rhombus]

Originally Posted by CobraMarty

The best thing anyone can do is pulg in a OBD2 scanner and watch your IATs in different criving conditions. You will be surprised.

So when accelerating, 1st to 4th gear runs, you hit near redline 4 times and 4 times/occasions see well over 200*F. All you need is once to break/blow the engine.

I have a datalogger on my E91 with the SC kit on it. I have been datalogging since day 1 testing the kit. No issues with IATs. Ive had it up to 135mph under full load numerous times with no issues.

12k boosted miles so far and I drive it like its ment to be driven. It has been 95-102degF here the past few weeks. Car drives like a champ even in the heat with the AC cranked.

If I were trying to extract more power out of the system, I would be more inclined to do meth injection than an intercooler. The simplicity of the non intercooled piping is NICE. It makes installation of the kit so much simplier and it is also easier to maintain the car without all of the extra piping in the way.

[CobraMarty]

I agree meth/washer fluid injection would be easier install on this system providing you get equal distribution to each cylinder was obtained.

In you logs, what has been your charge IATs? that is, temps after the SC in the intake manifold?

I thought the stock IAT sensor was plumbed before the SC. Where is it located?

[gbm30]

How things going with the charger for those who have installed it already

[CobraMarty]

Different locations for 'IATs'. I'm talking about 'CHARGE' IATs. That is what is MOST important.

-in the air box
-after the air filter, before the TB or SC (this is inlet tract temp usually 10-30* above ambient) THIS IS NOT 'CHARGE' IAT
-after the SC and before the TB
-after the SC and after the TB in the intake manifold * Best location for 'CHARGE' IAT *

[CobraMarty]

Originally Posted by rhombus

I have a datalogger on my E91 with the SC kit on it. I have been datalogging since day 1 testing the kit. No issues with IATs. Ive had it up to 135mph under full load numerous times with no issues

If you are datalogging off the OBD port, You are not measuring the 'charge' Intake Air Temp. You are only monitoring the air temp in the air inlet tract tubes after the air filter and before the supercharger. That temp is will vary with ambient temps and driving speed and be 10-30*F over ambient, higher when parked idling, lower when cruising on highway.

This is not the IAT I am talking about. I am concerned with the 'Charge' IAT. That is, after the supercharger. To measure this, you will have to either move the stock IAT sensor to after the SC or get another gauge and sensor to monitor. I use a dual digital air temp gauge with 2 sensors, one sensor before the supercharger inlet and the other sensor after the SC in the intake manifold.

A gauge like this-
http://www.siliconeintakes.com/prosp...uge-p-987.html

[rhombus]

Originally Posted by CobraMarty

If you are datalogging off the OBD port, You are not measuring the 'charge' Intake Air Temp. You are only monitoring the air temp in the air inlet tract tubes after the air filter and before the supercharger. That temp is will vary with ambient temps and driving speed and be 10-30*F over ambient, higher when parked idling, lower when cruising on highway.

This is not the IAT I am talking about. I am concerned with the 'Charge' IAT. That is, after the supercharger. To measure this, you will have to either move the stock IAT sensor to after the SC or get another gauge and sensor to monitor. I use a dual digital air temp gauge with 2 sensors, one sensor before the supercharger inlet and the other sensor after the SC in the intake manifold.

A gauge like this-
http://www.siliconeintakes.com/prosp...uge-p-987.html

I have a bunch of PLX sensor modules that I use for data logging in my shop in addition to the OBD port. I use this setup to datalog temp drops and pressure drops while designing turbo kits and sizing turbine housings (among other things). The sensor element response is not fast enough to pick up peak charge IAT temp at redline.