[boostm3]

Originally Posted by Quisp

If the turbos used to kick in at 1500rpm, but now dont kick in until about 3000rpm, but it isnt turbo lag, what would it be called?(not trying to be a wise-ass)Would it be remapping, hesitation, or something else?
I think that the fact that BMW is changing the way it words the description of the turbos in the 2009 model means something in regards to this problem of lag no matter what you call it.

I think hes talking about the technical definition of lag, not a generic description of a turbo which seems laggy. I think hes saying the tech description of turbo lag applies to the efficiency rating of the turbo itself... ie, larger turbos take longer to spool up. Thats the lag as hes defining it, or how the term 'turbo lag' is correctly applied. . Wastegate prgramming is an entirely different thing, whether it be under mechanical or electronic control.. The results to the uninitiated may appear the same, but to say they are both correctly termed 'Turbo Lag' is like saying 1 car which gets lousy gas mileage due to inefficient engine dynamics and one which gets lousy gas mileage due to severe tire underinflation both suffer from poor engine design. They both may suffer from lousy gas mileage, but its misleading to explain it using the same type of attribute.

This wasnt a great example, but I think you can see his point.

[Quisp]

I see the point and I am not trying to be dificult in any way. I am trying to clarify it so I know what to say when I meet with these lawyers. Since before you would have power from 1400 to 5000, which is a band through 3500rpm, but now you have that power for only 2000 rpm, from 3000 to 5000, If it is technically not "turbo lag" then would it be fair to say that the power band has benn lessened or how would you phrase it?

[boostm3]

Originally Posted by Quisp

I see the point and I am not trying to be dificult in any way. I am trying to clarify it so I know what to say when I meet with these lawyers. Since before you would have power from 1400 to 5000, which is a band through 3500rpm, but now you have that power for only 2000 rpm, from 3000 to 5000, If it is technically not "turbo lag" then would it be fair to say that the power band has benn lessened or how would you phrase it?

I would just talk about the new hesitancy in power delivery. And you can quantify it by using rpm bands. Talk about putting your foot into the throttle, and having to wait x time longer, or x rpms longer to feel the result of your throttle effort. no problem there.

[Quisp]

Thanks, probably better not to attach any specific name so that it doesnt come down to a matterof how it was worded. I will see what they say.

[**335i**]

well all u saw my test on a dyno, i wonder maybe dyno man who tested my car started with 1th then 2 and 3th shift then at 2000rps turned 4th shift and went till red line, maybe thats why on a dyno my results starts from 2500 rps torque, technically today i tryed with 4th shift from 1500rps and till 2000rps 4th shift wnt very slowly, from 2000rps 4th gear went more powerful, so i dont know is it cause i have that bad version or what?

http://img179.imageshack.us/my.php?i...dyno001ja2.jpg

http://img295.imageshack.us/my.php?i...dyno004iv5.jpg

[boostm3]

Originally Posted by **335i**

well all u saw my test on a dyno, i wonder maybe dyno man who tested my car started with 1th then 2 and 3th shift then at 2000rps turned 4th shift and went till red line, maybe thats why on a dyno my results starts from 2500 rps torque, technically today i tryed with 4th shift from 1500rps and till 2000rps 4th shift wnt very slowly, from 2000rps 4th gear went more powerful, so i dont know is it cause i have that bad version or what?

http://img179.imageshack.us/my.php?i...dyno001ja2.jpg

http://img295.imageshack.us/my.php?i...dyno004iv5.jpg

A dyno run usually doesnt capture the upshifts on the way to the gear hes chosen to dyno in. The dont start capturing, usually, until the gear chosen is reached... Lets say the chosen gear is 4th.. He'll shift up to 4th, hit the record button, and go WOT in 4th. What you see here, to me, looks like an excellent, smooth and properly progressive ramp up in trq from the 2500 rpm test start to the point it levels off near 3500 rpms. I dont think 1000 rpms for trq to ramp up to peak levels is bad at all or unusual.. I have a Vortech blower on my E36 M3, so I have no turbo lag at all, and, it takes me about 2k rpms to ramp up to peak trq.

[Cobu]

v31 is in the states (at least in Pennsylvania). However, according to my dealerships it doesn't do anything for the 335i (??) the DME update (which I really couldn't get a clear answer on) either does not exist or does not do anything to fix the lag.

They also said that BMW is aware of the issue and is supposedly working on a fix. They also said that if they thought that v31 would fix the problem BMW would advertise it as such bla bla bla.
I really think that my dealership doesn't know if this s/w fixes the lag or not as they have not installed it on any problematic vehicle. They could have been told to say that there is either no DME update or that it doesn't fix the issue on 335 !?
I was also told that there are 6 reasons why a vehicle would get a new s/w download and mine is not one of the six.

How do you argue and make your dealership download the v31 if they keep claiming that it doesn’t solve the lag issue. I guess we need to wait for someone to take the car in for one of the 6 f'n reasons and see what happens after the s/w download .... Rrrrrrr

[tyler9595]

Originally Posted by Cobu

v31 is in the states (at least in Pennsylvania). However, according to my dealerships it doesn't do anything for the 335i (??) the DME update (which I really couldn't get a clear answer on) either does not exist or does not do anything to fix the lag.

They also said that BMW is aware of the issue and is supposedly working on a fix. They also said that if they thought that v31 would fix the problem BMW would advertise it as such bla bla bla.
I really think that my dealership doesn't know if this s/w fixes the lag or not as they have not installed it on any problematic vehicle. They could have been told to say that there is either no DME update or that it doesn't fix the issue on 335 !?
I was also told that there are 6 reasons why a vehicle would get a new s/w download and mine is not one of the six.

How do you argue and make your dealership download the v31 if they keep claiming that it doesn’t solve the lag issue. I guess we need to wait for someone to take the car in for one of the 6 f'n reasons and see what happens after the s/w download .... Rrrrrrr

I had my car updated last week (on Friday). I e-mailed my SA this morning and asked him to confirm that the version installed on my car was v31. I received an e-mail back from my SA this morning. He confirmed that my car WAS updated with v31 and also that it DOES NOT contain any updates for the DME. This sounds like the same info you heard from your dealer. FYI - my car is still very laggy after the update.

I just e-mailed the SA again asking if there was another release expected soon and could I get updated again as soon as it arrived. We'll see...

[Cobu]

and the ordeal continues ...

1. Pavel gets v31 s/w with update for DME (... -515) and car is back to normal.
- His work order clearly shows DME update. Did he really get v31 and -515 DME ... who knows. I don't see why he wouldn't have.

2. v31 finally arrives in the states. Dealerships claim it has no DME update. (is it really not included in the US version of v31 or are dealerships told not to install the DME module ?)
- Tyler 9595 gets v31 w/out DME update - car performs no different than w/29.2. Lag still present - big surprise.

3. Dealerships now acknowledge the "issue" and claim that BMW is aware of it, and that BMW "could be" working on the fix (they certainly won't pressure anyone for it), but BMW NA says s/w performs per design - there is nothing wrong with your vehicles.

4. In the meantime, some are up for a class action law suit, most are not. After all, this is not a European or South American country where people are used to protesting. It is really not so much the actual law suit outcome as much as it is about the negative press that BMW would get from all this.

5. As for publications and such - until this issue is covered in a major car magazine it will all just be an internet chatter and nothing else for BMW. Most of us HAVE contacted car magazines with the story, but except for the autoblog's article I haven't seen anything else out there.

and the ordeal continues ….

[ezatnova]

God. That's so crazy that Pavel and another member in Sweden (sorry, I forget the name) both got a V31 that worked, and in the U.S. we are screwed?!
It will be somewhat interesting to hear from Meyergru when he gets back (I think he's back any day now). He is our German connection at the heart of these lag inducing idiots, and I'd like to hear what he can find out from his tech connections as to just what in the sam hell is going on.

On a different note, it's probably well worth contacting all of the car mags again..it's been a month or so. They might start to realize it's not just a passing fad and maybe they should put in a writeup.

[Prof3ssor]

I'll post more this week once I am taken care of. I have been very quiet as I do not want to continue and add to all of the speculation that is going on here these days. Once I am updated I will post more.

[enrita]

Originally Posted by ezatnova

God. That's so crazy that Pavel and another member in Sweden (sorry, I forget the name) both got a V31 that worked, and in the U.S. we are screwed?!
It will be somewhat interesting to hear from Meyergru when he gets back (I think he's back any day now). He is our German connection at the heart of these lag inducing idiots, and I'd like to hear what he can find out from his tech connections as to just what in the sam hell is going on.

On a different note, it's probably well worth contacting all of the car mags again..it's been a month or so. They might start to realize it's not just a passing fad and maybe they should put in a writeup.

Well i get my update 30 th of september and i live in sweden. i guess that if both of us get V31 and DME update with good results it surely works. otherwise will need to path´that with a jb3 hehe

[munu]

I am going on wednesday to get my squeaky brakes fixed. When I called to set appointment, I told the guy I also have Turbo lag after the recent software upgrade. That guy sounded like he never heard of term "Turbo lag". Not sure if he was SA or just somebody taking the calls.

I wanted to wait till this v31 mystry is resolved but squeaking brake is now becoming an embarrassment.

Any suggestion on how should I present this turbo lag issue. Atleast by wednesday I can find out the v31 story from Florida biggest dealer.

Thanks

[shaddai]

Originally Posted by munu

I am going on wednesday to get my squeaky brakes fixed. When I called to set appointment, I told the guy I also have Turbo lag after the recent software upgrade. That guy sounded like he never heard of term "Turbo lag". Not sure if he was SA or just somebody taking the calls.

I wanted to wait till this v31 mystry is resolved but squeaking brake is now becoming an embarrassment.

Any suggestion on how should I present this turbo lag issue. Atleast by wednesday I can find out the v31 story from Florida biggest dealer.

Thanks

I would stick to the facts (i.e. the webpage on bmwusa.com, as well as a physical brochure you may or may not have) and state that your car does not behave the same way. Leave the internet/e90post out of it, as they'll claim it's meaningless internet banter.

That didn't get me anywhere with one dealer. I'm now working with dealer number two now, at the request of a BMW NA supervisor. After my experience at the first dealer, I wouldn't go back anyways...

[BzzzBom]

Originally Posted by Cobu

and the ordeal continues ...

1. Pavel gets v31 s/w with update for DME (... -515) and car is back to normal.
- His work order clearly shows DME update. Did he really get v31 and -515 DME ... who knows. I don't see why he wouldn't have.

2. v31 finally arrives in the states. Dealerships claim it has no DME update. (is it really not included in the US version of v31 or are dealerships told not to install the DME module ?)
- Tyler 9595 gets v31 w/out DME update - car performs no different than w/29.2. Lag still present - big surprise.

3. Dealerships now acknowledge the "issue" and claim that BMW is aware of it, and that BMW "could be" working on the fix (they certainly won't pressure anyone for it), but BMW NA says s/w performs per design - there is nothing wrong with your vehicles.

4. In the meantime, some are up for a class action law suit, most are not. After all, this is not a European or South American country where people are used to protesting. It is really not so much the actual law suit outcome as much as it is about the negative press that BMW would get from all this.

5. As for publications and such - until this issue is covered in a major car magazine it will all just be an internet chatter and nothing else for BMW. Most of us HAVE contacted car magazines with the story, but except for the autoblog's article I haven't seen anything else out there.

and the ordeal continues ….

How many wrote to Roundel magazine a couple of months ago? They should be publishing the letters in the next issue. Roundel has a direct relationship with BMW USA and has tens of thousands of readers.

[CYRUS335i]

I went to the track with the wife’s stock (before 29.2) 335i coupe, the car is an auto, fresh red line oil, remove the stock air filter. I made 6 passes (had a ball!!). The best pass was...

3-09-08 --------------- (after 29.2)--------- 9-19-08
1.94......60ft --- ------------------------- 2.03…….60ft
5.61......330ft --------------------------- 5.75……..330ft
8.63......1/8 ----------------------------- 8.80……..1/8
81.98.....1/8mph ------------------------- 81.40…..1/8mph
13.43.....1/4----------------------------- 13.61…..1/4
102.32....mph --------------------------- 102.20….mph

The runs made on 9-19-08 the car had Swoop Scoops and 100 octane gas. The temp was bout the same on both days, mid- 60s. Please note the mph is just about the same but torque down low was not there.
__________________

[ezatnova]

Originally Posted by CYRUS335i

I went to the track with the wife’s stock (before 29.2) 335i coupe, the car is an auto, fresh red line oil, remove the stock air filter. I made 6 passes (had a ball!!). The best pass was...

3-09-08 --------------- (after 29.2)--------- 9-19-08
1.94......60ft --- ------------------------- 2.03…….60ft
5.61......330ft --------------------------- 5.75……..330ft
8.63......1/8 ----------------------------- 8.80……..1/8
81.98.....1/8mph ------------------------- 81.40…..1/8mph
13.43.....1/4----------------------------- 13.61…..1/4
102.32....mph --------------------------- 102.20….mph

The runs made on 9-19-08 the car had Swoop Scoops and 100 octane gas. The temp was bout the same on both days, mid- 60s. Please note the mph is just about the same but torque down low was not there.
__________________

Yeah, 1/4 mile isn't going to show anything (except somewhat, slightly, at launch) with the 29.2. All you have to do is launch at 2800 and boom, you're past the lag, and each shift will put it past the lag point too.

What will show the difference are side by side multi gear (one at a time, not continuous) pulls, from 1200 rpm, WOT between a pre and post 29.2 car. And potentially a same day same dyno comparrison between those two.

Thanks for your data though...if anything it helps quiet the people saying BMW made it stronger up top to compensate for this bait and switchedness. Clearly, if that were true, it would show in the 1/4.

[Rando]

CYRUS335i: thank you so much for posting some quantitative data.

Unfortunately, as ezatnova wrote, the problem is on the low-end, so drag strip runs don't quite show it. But a 5-60 mph run (rolling start), which many of the car magazines do, including Edmunds and Car & Driver, will show the problem.

Another good one would be a rolling 5-60 mph run in just 2nd gear.

BTW I'm still ready to test, but need to find someone local (SF Bay Area) to test with who has 29.2. (I'm still pre-29.2.) Shaddai and I might try, but we haven't been able to line up our schedules just yet.

[Quisp]

Question: How much do the environmental conditions(humidity, temp etc.) change the outcome of a dyno? I know they do have some effect, but if the temp and humidity is close , will the test be way off?

I wonder why people are getting cold feet about a class action. Fior a while everyone was up in arms and ready, now it seems different. Doesnt really involve much work, usually filling out a form and maybe submitting some receipts, no cost to be included.

The other methods have not given much success and get more frustrating each time. Maybe with this they will pay a bit more attention to the problem and come up with a solution.

[RBBMWE46M3]

But I want an Umpa Lumpa NOW DADDY....

[paltomare]

Originally Posted by Quisp

Question: How much do the environmental conditions(humidity, temp etc.) change the outcome of a dyno? I know they do have some effect, but if the temp and humidity is close , will the test be way off?

I wonder why people are getting cold feet about a class action. Fior a while everyone was up in arms and ready, now it seems different. Doesnt really involve much work, usually filling out a form and maybe submitting some receipts, no cost to be included.

The other methods have not given much success and get more frustrating each time. Maybe with this they will pay a bit more attention to the problem and come up with a solution.

I agree, a class action should get there attention, no cold feet here.

[newbieone]

what was the initial intent of v29.2? to fix the fuel pump or the wastegates?

come to think of it...it fixed neither. i had to get a new fuel pump (which i initially went in for) even after the software update. and my car still has the wastegate rattle from 1200 to 2000 rpm when i punch the throttle and release it.