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      03-14-2018, 12:12 PM   #529
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I could spend $0.02 to explain mr. Viffermike the reason.
Actually two:
One was to not spend extra $$ as i was building the house. I actually had small tweaks done to my floor plans to accommodate decent solar array. Panels are facing south perfectly at the right angle
Two, was to set example that it could be easily done even if you dont feel like spending money, or dont have enough to buy it outright, but have a desire to have smaller footprint and be energy independent.
Solar + Tesla Powerwall + EV = Off grid carbon-free living

https://www.tesla.com/powerwall
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      03-14-2018, 12:36 PM   #530
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It's barely a hundred stations in the entire US
Electric plug is in every house
But my house is no place near where I park my cars.
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      03-14-2018, 12:46 PM   #531
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But my house is no place near where I park my cars.
If it doesn't work for you, that means they're no good for anyone, amirite?
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      03-14-2018, 01:30 PM   #532
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But my house is no place near where I park my cars.
If it doesn't work for you, that means they're no good for anyone, amirite?
No, you are not right. But if home charging works for you doesn't mean it works for everyone (like an ICE does).
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      03-14-2018, 01:30 PM   #533
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But my house is no place near where I park my cars.
Yes, and I'll add that if you charge your car off of a regular household wall plug, it'll take you days to get a full charge.

Toyota and Honda are betting on Hydrogen. Overall more effective and easier to implement. No need for a charger in every house - plus most Japanese households live in apartments making home charging hard. Hydrogen cars are cheaper prices for the same range, not to mention the instant pumping of hydrogen refueling. Once car prices and fuel prices come down, it'll be a viable alternative to pure EVs.

Infrastructure is definitely getting better. The hydrogen station near me didn't exist just a few years ago. Also, a single hydrogen pump can serve hundreds of cars a day, unlike a EV charger that is occupied by the same car for hours at a time.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/greatsp.../#8043f98a888c
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      03-14-2018, 02:00 PM   #534
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Just found this article, Toyota thinks it can 1/2 the cost of the hydrogen cars by 2020. That's enticing - a $25k car that does 300-400 miles a tank on hydrogen. Definitely will not be any EVs that can do that by 2020. Toyota further says it'll be able to reduce costs to 75% of current cost by 2025... that means hydrogen cars for $15k in 2025.

Toyota also announced a plan to build one of the world's largest fuel cell power plants in the California city of Long Beach, using hydrogen produced from biogas.

https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Com...ore-components
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      03-14-2018, 02:01 PM   #535
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Go ask your scientist friends how to calculate energy density. LOL
Last I checked a fuel tanker didn't have to drive to my house to fill it with electricity.
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      03-14-2018, 02:02 PM   #536
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I could spend $0.02 to explain mr. Viffermike the reason.
Actually two:
One was to not spend extra $$ as i was building the house. I actually had small tweaks done to my floor plans to accommodate decent solar array. Panels are facing south perfectly at the right angle
Two, was to set example that it could be easily done even if you dont feel like spending money, or dont have enough to buy it outright, but have a desire to have smaller footprint and be energy independent.
Solar + Tesla Powerwall + EV = Off grid carbon-free living

https://www.tesla.com/powerwall
Sir, I wasn't being serious. Now I will be:

You're an off-the-grid/EV preacher with despotic leanings. We get it. There's nothing wrong with being proud about that passion, either. It's when you automatically discount anyone else's passion because you don't share it that your 'solar system' quip earlier really starts to resonate with multiple meanings.

Good day. Enjoy your universe.
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      03-14-2018, 02:47 PM   #537
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Originally Posted by glennQNYC View Post
No, you are not right. But if home charging works for you doesn't mean it works for everyone (like an ICE does).
I don't think anyone, at least I'm not saying that an EV is for everyone. At least not currently.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Z K View Post
Yes, and I'll add that if you charge your car off of a regular household wall plug, it'll take you days to get a full charge.
It takes 3-4 hrs to completely charge my i3 using the 240 plug in my garage. It's the same one that you plug your washer and dryer into.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Z K View Post
Toyota and Honda are betting on Hydrogen. Overall more effective and easier to implement. No need for a charger in every house - plus most Japanese households live in apartments making home charging hard. Hydrogen cars are cheaper prices for the same range, not to mention the instant pumping of hydrogen refueling. Once car prices and fuel prices come down, it'll be a viable alternative to pure EVs.

Infrastructure is definitely getting better. The hydrogen station near me didn't exist just a few years ago. Also, a single hydrogen pump can serve hundreds of cars a day, unlike a EV charger that is occupied by the same car for hours at a time.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/greatsp.../#8043f98a888c
Good. I hope it does. Anything to be less reliant on fossil fuels IMHO is good. However, it takes a lot of energy to isolate hydrogen from water and you still have to transport and store hydrogen. Surely you can use "green" methods to extract hydrogen, but it does make it difficult to make it cost effective to produce for the masses. With the EV, multiple sources can be used, by it hydro, solar, wind, natural gas, nuclear etc. Hydrogen, while abundant, is still limiting in the sense that the vehicle will be tied to one source of fuel.
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      03-14-2018, 03:07 PM   #538
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Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
Your whole premise is based upon an unproven argument that carbon fuels are not "green". That's what you don't understand. You can't prove that use of carbon fuels are bad for the environment in the short term, bad for the planet in the long term, and are going to cause the early demise of homo sapiens any faster or any slower than they are going to go extinct anyway. So the whole argument that EV is better than ICE for the planet and humans is bullshit and made from a false narrative.
That's right wing conspiracy fairy tales to protect oil interests and businesses. I'll believe that the day I trust a used car salesman. You've been duped and I don't want to be a member of your club.

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Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
The only advantage of electrical automotive propulsion is the energy conversion from stored energy to momentum (kinetic energy) is more efficient.
Not just the only advantage. It's also flexibility which you have chosen to ignore so I won't bother repeating myself.

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Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
Carbon fuel (I don't like the use of the term fossil fuel because it is inaccurate) is really solar energy, it's just stored in a medium that someone told you is not green.
It's stored in a medium that creates pollution when energy is extracted from it.

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Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
If there is anything wrong that man is doing with carbon fuel is the conversion process is inefficient.
That's just ONE thing wrong.

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Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
What we should be doing as stewards of the planet (an idea we've placed upon ourselves)
I keep my house clean. I placed that upon myself because I don't shit where I eat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
is to devise ways of better harnessing the energy stored in carbon fuel by using it far more efficiently. Internal Combustion Engines need more improvement in the conversion of the fuel they use because over 50% is lost to heat.
Again, you are married to an old technique. I have yet to hear a reason WHY we should stick to an inefficient system.

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Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
Your "green" concept is to stop burning carbon fuels all together, which is completely stupid.
Putting words in my mouth is completely stupid.

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Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
The land mass required to create "sustainable" energy sources to equal the amount of energy (electricity) generated by the methods of non-immediate conversion of solar energy does not allow for humans and animals to actually use the surface of the earth. By the standards of landmass use, using carbon fuels (coal and natural gas), hydro, and nuclear, is far more efficient than the sustainable sources of wind and solar.
The degree of limitations you have put upon the EV are not all too different than the limitations we currently have with "carbon fuels" yet you are willing to "devise ways of better harnessing the energy" of said fuels, but not willing to extend the same courtesy to "green" sources. You have given no concrete reasons as to why and one can only surmise that these reasons don't exist outside of a personal or emotional attachment or an unjustified resentment for anything progressive because of a personal political belief. I could have a reasonable discussion with someone who can do otherwise, but I feel like with you this is a personal vendetta against the liberals. It is that fact alone that makes you an unreliable source of unbiased information simply because you are inherently biased.
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      03-14-2018, 03:15 PM   #539
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Viffermike View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by AndreyATC View Post
I could spend $0.02 to explain mr. Viffermike the reason.
Actually two:
One was to not spend extra $$ as i was building the house. I actually had small tweaks done to my floor plans to accommodate decent solar array. Panels are facing south perfectly at the right angle
Two, was to set example that it could be easily done even if you dont feel like spending money, or dont have enough to buy it outright, but have a desire to have smaller footprint and be energy independent.
Solar + Tesla Powerwall + EV = Off grid carbon-free living

https://www.tesla.com/powerwall
Sir, I wasn't being serious. Now I will be:

You're an off-the-grid/EV preacher with despotic leanings. We get it. There's nothing wrong with being proud about that passion, either. It's when you automatically discount anyone else's passion because you don't share it that your 'solar system' quip earlier really starts to resonate with multiple meanings.

Good day. Enjoy your universe.
I appreciate the honesty and kind wishes.
I'm not environmentalist.
Not trying to get anyone to switch to EVs. This may happen eventually regardless. Simply defending the technology and trying to show what I like about it. Too many haters and miss information around here.
My former most recent cars were S6 and X6M
While they were nice, I love everything about Tesla much better. That's all
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      03-14-2018, 03:18 PM   #540
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Being green and eco-friendly has never been on my radar of priorities in a purchasing or lifestyle decision. Hell, the only reason my home being built will have solar is because the architects designed it in that way. In other words, I don't care about the environment to do anything about it, but I'm glad so many around me do so I can breathe clean air.

That said, I've found those who are so passionately anti-Tesla and are cheering for its demise are podunk mouthbreathers. They take to the streets with pitchforks and lit torches claiming Tesla is only operating because of government support, all while wearing an ill fitting Chevy or Mopar t-shirt. Funny, really.

Ultimately, no...Tesla will not be gone in 10 years, and the chance of them going under is no better or worse than any other $50B company.
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      03-14-2018, 03:29 PM   #541
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Z K View Post
Yes, and I'll add that if you charge your car off of a regular household wall plug, it'll take you days to get a full charge.

Toyota and Honda are betting on Hydrogen. Overall more effective and easier to implement. No need for a charger in every house - plus most Japanese households live in apartments making home charging hard. Hydrogen cars are cheaper prices for the same range, not to mention the instant pumping of hydrogen refueling. Once car prices and fuel prices come down, it'll be a viable alternative to pure EVs.

Infrastructure is definitely getting better. The hydrogen station near me didn't exist just a few years ago. Also, a single hydrogen pump can serve hundreds of cars a day, unlike a EV charger that is occupied by the same car for hours at a time.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/greatsp.../#8043f98a888c
I don't think any EVs are cheap enough yet that people that can't afford washers/dryers in their house have them.

That said, long charges on 110V outlets only take as long as your complaining about if you're starting from zero charge. With a range of 300 miles, most people will come home each day mostly charged. Even if they're plugging into a 110V outlet, they'll leave the next day fully charged.

Even if they do go on an extended trip that has them arrive home with 0 miles remaining, an overnight charge on a 110V outlet provides sufficient range for most peoples daily commutes.

AKA, even on 110V, which you have to be pretty poor to be stuck with, it's not an issue the overwhelming majority of the time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Viffermike View Post
Sir, I wasn't being serious. Now I will be:

You're an off-the-grid/EV preacher with despotic leanings. We get it. There's nothing wrong with being proud about that passion, either. It's when you automatically discount anyone else's passion because you don't share it that your 'solar system' quip earlier really starts to resonate with multiple meanings.

Good day. Enjoy your universe.
You don't have to be a EV preacher with despotic leanings to appreciate...
not having to get gas
not being stuck with the grid for power
appreciate paying less for power in the short term and nothing for power in the long term

I have a catless racecar. I still appreciate the functional benefits of EVs.
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      03-14-2018, 03:47 PM   #542
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmg View Post
I don't think anyone, at least I'm not saying that an EV is for everyone. At least not currently.



It takes 3-4 hrs to completely charge my i3 using the 240 plug in my garage. It's the same one that you plug your washer and dryer into.



Good. I hope it does. Anything to be less reliant on fossil fuels IMHO is good. However, it takes a lot of energy to isolate hydrogen from water and you still have to transport and store hydrogen. Surely you can use "green" methods to extract hydrogen, but it does make it difficult to make it cost effective to produce for the masses. With the EV, multiple sources can be used, by it hydro, solar, wind, natural gas, nuclear etc. Hydrogen, while abundant, is still limiting in the sense that the vehicle will be tied to one source of fuel.
There was another article that said they can use other forms of electrical sources to produce hydrogen - such as wind and solar power. It can also use the electrical grid at night - electricity that normally is much cheaper than during the day. Doing so will greatly reduce the costs of hydrogen.

And you can transport hydrogen. You can make hydrogen from clean electricity sources such as wind and hydro and then send it to fueling stations in places that use dirtier electrical sources such as coal and natural gas. You can reduce overall pollution by reducing burning of fossil fuels for electricity.

After having driven a FCV, I'm sold. The tech is awesome. I also think there's great potential in FCV sports cars - the cars are much lighter than EVs because of no batteries + you get the instant torque of a electric motor. It's no wonder Audi, BMW, Mercedes, Honda, Toyota and Hyundai are all making FCV cars now.
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      03-14-2018, 03:55 PM   #543
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With the EV, multiple sources can be used, by it hydro, solar, wind, natural gas, nuclear etc. Hydrogen, while abundant, is still limiting in the sense that the vehicle will be tied to one source of fuel.
Don't forget about good 'ol reliable coal! In 2016 34% of the US' energy was generated by coal (40.8% worldwide).
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      03-14-2018, 04:02 PM   #544
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Don't forget about good 'ol reliable coal! In 2016 34% of the US' energy was generated by coal.
Flexibility is the key. Even if it's 64% coal, it's still 36% other and those numbers can change. Maybe one day it will be 36% coal and 64% other. This is why I believe the EV is the future. Flexibility.
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      03-14-2018, 04:03 PM   #545
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Originally Posted by glennQNYC View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmg View Post
With the EV, multiple sources can be used, by it hydro, solar, wind, natural gas, nuclear etc. Hydrogen, while abundant, is still limiting in the sense that the vehicle will be tied to one source of fuel.
Don't forget about good 'ol reliable coal! In 2016 34% of the US' energy was generated by coal.
It's a lot better from what it used to be. It's getting cleaner by day. Many committed to switch to renewable

Coal is 30.1% last year btw
https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=427&t=3

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      03-14-2018, 04:09 PM   #546
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I'm not necessarily a believer in Tesla's demise, but the company definitely has some very serious problems. Just today we hear the automaker is churning out a high volume of flawed parts...

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/03/14/tesl...employees.html
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      03-14-2018, 04:42 PM   #547
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Not going electric until solid state batteries is the norm.

Lighter, smaller, more range, extremely fast charging.
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      03-14-2018, 05:03 PM   #548
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And another Tesla executive jumps ship, just before the company is supposed to release the latest results on Model 3 production:
http://www.autonews.com/article/2018...autonews-daily.

Regarding the OP, I still don't think Tesla will disappear in 10 years - but within 3 or 4 years, it's going to get lost going up against several automobile manufacturers churning out EVs.
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      03-14-2018, 10:27 PM   #549
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That's right wing conspiracy fairy tales to protect oil interests and businesses. I'll believe that the day I trust a used car salesman. You've been duped and I don't want to be a member of your club.

Not just the only advantage. It's also flexibility which you have chosen to ignore so I won't bother repeating myself.

It's stored in a medium that creates pollution when energy is extracted from it.

That's just ONE thing wrong.

I keep my house clean. I placed that upon myself because I don't shit where I eat.

Again, you are married to an old technique. I have yet to hear a reason WHY we should stick to an inefficient system.

Putting words in my mouth is completely stupid.

The degree of limitations you have put upon the EV are not all too different than the limitations we currently have with "carbon fuels" yet you are willing to "devise ways of better harnessing the energy" of said fuels, but not willing to extend the same courtesy to "green" sources. You have given no concrete reasons as to why and one can only surmise that these reasons don't exist outside of a personal or emotional attachment or an unjustified resentment for anything progressive because of a personal political belief. I could have a reasonable discussion with someone who can do otherwise, but I feel like with you this is a personal vendetta against the liberals. It is that fact alone that makes you an unreliable source of unbiased information simply because you are inherently biased.
I gave you the reason. Energy density. You are errantly using the word portable when you mean transferable.
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      03-14-2018, 11:00 PM   #550
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Z K View Post
There was another article that said they can use other forms of electrical sources to produce hydrogen - such as wind and solar power. It can also use the electrical grid at night - electricity that normally is much cheaper than during the day. Doing so will greatly reduce the costs of hydrogen.

And you can transport hydrogen. You can make hydrogen from clean electricity sources such as wind and hydro and then send it to fueling stations in places that use dirtier electrical sources such as coal and natural gas. You can reduce overall pollution by reducing burning of fossil fuels for electricity.
So instead of just making power and using it to power EVs, you think we should use that power for an extremely inefficient process to extract hydrogen? Then have to still transport and store that hydrogen and further efficiency losses?

Your whole argument is that we should use MORE energy with less efficiency and flexibility to do the same thing (drive). That is insane!
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