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[Kolyan2k]

Originally Posted by AWD Addict

For reference on "what I was saying" see the post above (and all others if there's anything in question.) I don't think I'm leaving too much for the imagination here anymore (simple logic of AWD vs RWD in snow went out the window on page 2 - afterall).

Yes, CoV and weight have a ton to do with handling, even when not on a race track. Man, this is getting tiring.

Why do you keep hitting reply bud?

I dont know where this is going, and i am having hard time understanding you....But in conclusion, After reading TIRERACK tests and reviews posted above (and DIRECT comparison AWD to RWD), It is pretty clear to that AWD with all-season tires IS NOT better the RWD on winter set, and RWD in this case would be better in snow

[AWD Addict]

You can't compare an SUV to a 335xi with huge differences in CoV, wieght, height etc. It's comparing apples to dumptrucks.

I do find this amusing, given people say the xi is horribly handicapped in handling by the mere 180lbs that it is heavier.

But the 1000 lbs + heavier Cayenne? SAME THING!

You can't make this shit up. You really can't.

[Kolyan2k]

Originally Posted by AWD Addict

You can't compare an SUV to a 335xi with huge differences in CoV, wieght, height etc. It's comparing apples to dumptrucks.

I do find this amusing, given people say the xi is horribly handicapped in handling by the mere 180lbs that it is heavier.

But the 1000 lbs + heavier Cayenne? SAME THING!

You can't make this shit up. You really can't.

I dont know if we are on the same page here.....but i hope you realize this:

180-200lbs (or whatever) on the track and pushing the car to its limits DOES make alot of difference (its a fact, and its been said in CD when testing 335i). In this scenario weight is DISADVANTAGE

having 200lbs in a trunk of RWD BMW (i personally have not found a need for this) or an SUV with extra 1000lbs is an ADVANTAGE in snow.

EDIT: and Xi is handicapped, but not horribly. More you push the car, more you realize this, so for normal street driving xi or i are pretty much the same.

[AWD Addict]

Originally Posted by Kolyan2k

I dont know if we are on the same page here.....but i hope you realize this:

180-200lbs (or whatever) on the track and pushing the car to its limits DOES make alot of difference (its a fact, and its been said in CD when testing 335i). In this scenario weight is DISADVANTAGE

having 200lbs in a trunk of RWD BMW (i personally have not found a need for this) or an SUV with extra 1000lbs is an ADVANTAGE in snow.

EDIT: and Xi is handicapped, but not horribly. More you push the car, more you realize this, so for normal street driving xi or i are pretty much the same.

We're definitely not on the same page.

Putting 200lbs of weight in the trunk of a car that is perfectly balanced 50/50 seems pretty stupid to me. Then, as a result taking traction off the steering wheels, seems even stupider. And the coup de grace is adding 200lbs to the rear of a car that already is going to have a terrible oversteering issue in snow. Darwin award! So you know, putting sandbags in trunks is a measure to equalize weight distribution over wheels that had less than their share of weight. Front engine cars (or pickups most commonly) did this to counter exactly the condition you propose to create.

Why are you back to track racing again? Was the Car and Driver snow test with the Cayenne a race? You're all over the place bud. Pick a horse, then let's have a discussion on it. First it's about racing, then it's not, then it's comparing SUVs that weight thousands of pounds more than cars to eachother in snow. Now we're back to comparing the 180lb difference between the xi and the i, which used to be a disadvantage, but is now an advantage, but only in the Cayenne, which tells us the xi isn't any good in the snow (unless it's at the track - where lots of people go when it's snowing).

Anyone keeping up with this wonderful logic?

Jesus Christ. I'm done with this "discussion" if you can even call it that. I'd strongly suggest you start reading some books, take a couple driving courses (O'Neill's winter driving course in NH is tremendous - and touches on basically everything you're struggling with here) and maybe a statistics and physics class to boot.

[Nikolas]

I can't believe some people think more weight with winter driving is better? Man go back to High school and retake physics!

Or come up to Tahoe and watch the mayhem that occurs with the heavier vehicles.

[lawgone]

Originally Posted by Nikolas

I can't believe some people think more weight with winter driving is better? Man go back to High school and retake physics!

Or come up to Tahoe and watch the mayhem that occurs with the heavier vehicles.

It has been better in my experience. I used to have a RWD Blazer and that thing never got stuck. All it is is a S10 with more weight in the rear. More weight equals more pressure on the wheels equals more friction with the surface. Tractor trailers are an exception due to the pulling of the large load in the rear.

[Kolyan2k]

Originally Posted by AWD Addict

We're definitely not on the same page.

Putting 200lbs of weight in the trunk of a car that is perfectly balanced 50/50 seems pretty stupid to me. Then, as a result taking traction off the steering wheels, seems even stupider. And the coup de grace is adding 200lbs to the rear of a car that already is going to have a terrible oversteering issue in snow. Darwin award! So you know, putting sandbags in trunks is a measure to equalize weight distribution over wheels that had less than their share of weight. Front engine cars (or pickups most commonly) did this to counter exactly the condition you propose to create.

Why are you back to track racing again? Was the Car and Driver snow test with the Cayenne a race? You're all over the place bud. Pick a horse, then let's have a discussion on it. First it's about racing, then it's not, then it's comparing SUVs that weight thousands of pounds more than cars to eachother in snow. Now we're back to comparing the 180lb difference between the xi and the i, which used to be a disadvantage, but is now an advantage, but only in the Cayenne, which tells us the xi isn't any good in the snow (unless it's at the track - where lots of people go when it's snowing).

Anyone keeping up with this wonderful logic?

Jesus Christ. I'm done with this "discussion" if you can even call it that. I'd strongly suggest you start reading some books, take a couple driving courses (O'Neill's winter driving course in NH is tremendous - and touches on basically everything you're struggling with here) and maybe a statistics and physics class to boot.

no offense. but i think you are trolling.....i dont want to listen to this bs any more. Its pretty clear that Car and Driver said that extra weight will hurt XI performance on the track. < This is clear to anyone. Then Tirerack (NOT ME) has done several tests on RWD BMW and AWD Porsche with AS and Winter rubber, then they compared the results.

Whats not to understand ? What the fuck is so confusing ? Stop trolling at READ how Tirerack compared AWD Cayanne to RWD BMW and READ the results.


Thats the problem in USA, people like you think that their AWD with all-season and summer tires is much better in snow the RWD with winters (despite the facts) and cause accidents on streets. I bet you are the same driver that drives 60-70 mph in left lane, right ?

[AWD Addict]

Again, I rest my case your honor. I'm powerless against the magazines and their infinite automobile wisdom.

I'm not a troll. I've just destroyed all your bogus shennanigans and misdirection nonesense that you spouted so you could avoid saying you were wrong in making a stupid statement. You've talked your own arguments around into circles, and actualyl confused yourself into contradicting your previous posts.

Own it bud. 4 wheels of traction in snow is superior to the worst driving format (RWD), even on all-seasons. That may shock some BMW RWD fanboy in denial, but the truth is in the physics.

[Kolyan2k]

Originally Posted by AWD Addict

Again, I rest my case your honor. I'm powerless against the magazines and their infinite automobile wisdom.

I'm not a troll. I've just destroyed all your bogus shennanigans and misdirection nonesense that you spouted so you could avoid saying you were wrong in making a stupid statement. You've talked your own arguments around into circles, and actualyl confused yourself into contradicting your previous posts.

Own it bud. 4 wheels of traction in snow is superior to the worst driving format (RWD), even on all-seasons. That may shock some BMW RWD fanboy in denial, but the truth is in the physics.

care to provide any proof......you know, like i did ? or do you prefer to back up your statements with your own bs.......

Originally Posted by Nikolas

I can't believe some people think more weight with winter driving is better? Man go back to High school and retake physics!

Or come up to Tahoe and watch the mayhem that occurs with the heavier vehicles.

I would like to listen to you, but i now recognize you from previous XI-fan thread.....the only problem, you didnt even know how XI works back then....hopefully you learned something.....

[ceb]

Originally Posted by Kolyan2k

...Thats the problem in USA, people like you think that their AWD with all-season and summer tires is much better in snow the RWD with winters (despite the facts) and cause accidents on streets...

Why confuse the issue with facts. Isn't it easier just to say "I know what I'm talking about and I'm right."

Addict appears to want to look evidence that is irrefutable straight in the face and say "prove it," yet he won't back up any of his "facts."

[AWD Addict]

Good facts = comparing an SUV to this car with different tires, 1000+ lbs of weight difference, and 14" of heigh difference?



Best part? TireRack suggests buying MORE TIRES! OMG They must be right!

Anyone looking to buy a bridge? ceb?

[bluefly]

AWDAddict I'll remind you that the rwd 911 has more weight at rear than over front tires and it is considered one of the most capable sports cars in snow - accel, braking (especially), and cornering are all wonderful. In other words, adding bit more weight to the trunk of a rwd bimmer, despite changing the 50/50 balance rearwards, does NOT an oversteering monster make.

I really have to question your driving ability at this point. I have a Miata that is incredibly capable in snow (aside from ground clearance) - when equipped with snow tires. Yet, I suspect you would pronounce it an evil oversteering monster machine since it does not have AWD?

At this point you have lost ALL credibility as a car guy, at least in my book; rather, you seem an irrationally argumentative zealot. I'm about ready to add you to "ignore" just to save myself time when looking for real information or balanced perspectives on this forum.

[AWD Addict]

Originally Posted by bluefly

I really have to question your driving ability at this point. I have a Miata that is incredibly capable in snow (aside from ground clearance) - when equipped with snow tires. Yet, I suspect you would pronounce it an evil oversteering monster machine since it does not have AWD?

I honestly don't know how many times I need to repeat myself. I don't think your RWD car is an undrivable monster. That's not what the OP asked about, and that's now how I answered. He asked what was better. Lots of people said there's effectively no difference, and that's incorrect. I've talked about driving RWD in the snow. I didn't die. That doesn't mean I'd much rather be behind the wheel of an AWD car that DOMINATES snow, rather than "get's along fine"

Just because something's inferior doesn't make it worthless. As I've also repeated. Plenty of people commute to work in the snow on a bicycle. That doesn't make it impossible and more than it makes it better than being in an AWD car.

And if you say RWD is better in snow than AWD, then it's not my automotive IQ that should be in question. It's stubborn fanboy stupidity. Seriously.

Originally Posted by bluefly

At this point you have lost ALL credibility as a car guy, at least in my book; rather, you seem an irrationally argumentative zealot. I'm about ready to add you to "ignore" just to save myself time when looking for real information or balanced perspectives on this forum.

What is that, a threat to ignore me? Think I want to have discussions with idiots who deny reality? Tell you what, do me a favor and go for it. I wouldn't want you to be offended by obvious truths anymore than you already have.

Next up, I get put on ignore for claiming the sky is blue. The nerve of me!

Stay tuned.

[Kolyan2k]

Originally Posted by AWD Addict

I honestly don't know how many times I need to repeat myself. I don't think your RWD car is an undrivable monster. That's not what the OP asked about, and that's now how I answered. He asked what was better. Lots of people said there's effectively no difference, and that's incorrect. I've talked about driving RWD in the snow. I didn't die. That doesn't mean I'd much rather be behind the wheel of an AWD car that DOMINATES snow, rather than "get's along fine"

Just because something's inferior doesn't make it worthless. As I've also repeated. Plenty of people commute to work in the snow on a bicycle. That doesn't make it impossible and more than it makes it better than being in an AWD car.

And if you say RWD is better in snow than AWD, then it's not my automotive IQ that should be in question. It's stubborn fanboy stupidity. Seriously.



What is that, a threat to ignore me? Think I want to have discussions with idiots who deny reality? Tell you what, do me a favor and go for it. I wouldn't want you to be offended by obvious truths anymore than you already have.

Next up, I get put on ignore for claiming the sky is blue. The nerve of me!

Stay tuned.

Wouldn't it be a "stubborn fanboy stupidity" to say that AWD with AS tires is better then RWD with winters despite a credible tirerack review and the fact that AS tires are shit in snow compared to winter ?

[ceb]

Originally Posted by Kolyan2k

Wouldn't it be a "stubborn fanboy stupidity" to say that AWD with AS tire is better then RWD with winters despite a credible tirerack review and the fact that AS tires are shit in snow compared to winter ?

We all know that addicts have a warped sense of reality. Don't let the schoolyard bully get to you and just ignore ignorance.

[AWD Addict]

That review is comparing a half a ton heavier SUV, 14" taller to an AWD passenger car. It's published by a tire reseller, and the conclusion of the "analysis?" BUY MORE TIRES.

Seriously!

You talk like AS tires are worse than summers. Again, 90% of drivers in snow are on all season tires. Have you ever driven in snow on them in AWD?

[AWD Addict]

Originally Posted by ceb

We all know that addicts have a warped sense of reality. Don't let the schoolyard bully get to you and just ignore ignorance.

I just reread the entire thread. THere are like 3 nutjobs who refuse to believe that AWD is superior in snow to RWD with snows.

About two dozen people agree with me - all who drive in snowy climates.. I think this thread speaks for itself now, especially after the last bit of "science" added by you two.

Thanks for playing.

[Kolyan2k]

Originally Posted by AWD Addict

That review is comparing a half a ton heavier SUV, 14" taller to an AWD passenger car. It's published by a tire reseller, and the conclusion of the "analysis?" BUY MORE TIRES.

Seriously!

You talk like AS tires are worse than summers. Again, 90% of drivers in snow are on all season tires. Have you ever driven in snow on them in AWD?

let me get this.....so you are saying that 335Xi is better in snow then AWD Porsche SUV with advanced traction control (like bmw) ?

no, I drove my A4 Quattro (yes, better then Xi) with high performance winter tires PA3s and my BMW M3 with DS2s winter tires was better then A4 in snow

EDIT: looks like it takes time to come up with more nonsense.......therefore no reply

[bluefly]

AWD addict you are a bona fide internet bully, aka the most cowardly form of arsehole. It would actually be hilarious if it didn't clutter up what is otherwise a good forum. There is no point in anyone discussing any AWD-related topic with you it seems. I get it now - you are a pussy with AWD as your catnip.

You cherrypick, conflate postings, build straw men, thump your chest at your "driving credentials", and shrilly repeat (slightly shifting as needed) your beliefs as "facts". I haven't seen such heavy-handed boorish behaviour and pseudo-intellectual posturing on a car forum in YEARS and it's sad to find it in BMW land. Just pleased I don't have to deal with your insufferable ego in "real life".

So happy new year to you man... enjoy your x-drive's superiority (assuming snow tires) for whichever of the next 60 days or so are heavily snow-covered... Adio.

[BMWsky]

Originally Posted by AWD Addict

I just reread the entire thread. THere are like 3 nutjobs who refuse to believe that AWD is superior in snow to RWD with snows.

About two dozen people agree with me - all who drive in snowy climates.. I think this thread speaks for itself now, especially after the last bit of "science" added by you two.

Thanks for playing.

AWD with snows is superior to RWD with snows. I wouldn't call AWD with AS "superior" to RWD with snows. As I mentioned earlier in the thread, I have both and live on Lake Ontario where we average 9 feet of snow per year. I drive my Jaguar XJ8L with dedicated snows over my 300C with AWD and AS.

Now it's a moot point for me as I have an e92 RWD and an SUV for days when I can't get over the snow lip at the end of my driveway.

[DenverJayhawk]

I was done with this thread but have to comment.

The "nutjobs" here got on your case because you stated it was irresponsible, even dangerous to say that most people will get by just fine with RWD and dedicated snow tires. Your statement here is completely ridiculous as demonstrated by the generations of people that have driven in snow/ice with rwd. I know you don't take magazine's seriously, but C&D, who I feel knows a hell of a lot more than you about driving in any condition than yourself, has stated this same opinion. When you ask for facts or proof, people are going to quote mags like C&D as evidence.

One guy even posted a picture of him driving up a mountain road in the snow with his rwd BMW on winter tires.

Is AWD generally superior to rwd in snow/ice? Of course, given the same rubber.

Is AWD with all seasons superior to rwd with winter tires? Opinions will vary here. The awd guys will say hell yes. C&D and other folks here with rwd and winter tires will say no. Again, in my view, the professional's opinions like those of C&D carry more credibility than awd addicts like yourself and the remaining high school kid's opinions who's cars were bought by their parents.

Is it dangerous to say most people will get along just fine with rwd and winter tires? Hell no. It's laughable that you even have that position. I can tell you my granddad had an old VW bug with rwd. It was the best snow vehicle he ever had with the engine hanging way over the drive wheels.

Originally Posted by AWD Addict

I just reread the entire thread. THere are like 3 nutjobs who refuse to believe that AWD is superior in snow to RWD with snows.

About two dozen people agree with me - all who drive in snowy climates.. I think this thread speaks for itself now, especially after the last bit of "science" added by you two.

Thanks for playing.

[335BBS]

Originally Posted by Kolyan2k

let me get this.....so you are saying that 335Xi is better in snow then AWD Porsche SUV with advanced traction control (like bmw) ?

no, I drove my A4 Quattro (yes, better then Xi) with high performance winter tires PA3s and my BMW M3 with DS2s winter tires was better then A4 in snow

EDIT: looks like it takes time to come up with more nonsense.......therefore no reply

I dont want to get in the middle of this brawl but I can't believe that RWD M3 with winters has more traction in snow than an A4 with winters? I've driven Audis for years and the only way to get them stuck is to drive into more snow than you have ground clearance. BMW stands for "Barely Moves in Winter".