[ar design]

Originally Posted by packinDSS

Take em off and hollow them out (did I saythat out loud)

We just made 32awhp on an Audi S4 with our 3" downpipes. Car had Piggie Pipes (gutted primary cats) on it before....

[vbmw335]

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

This assumes that all other vendors are price gauging because you drive a BMW which is not the case. ITs a FACT that things made in China are cheaper (i.e. money not quality) then made in Canada or the US. The quality issue is a whole different can of worms. It is true that a Chinese factory with the same know how and technology will most likely produce goods of similar quality, but thats if you can find a company like that in China which does not cut corners to make an extra buck.

Case in point. My good friend owns an aquarium store. It is cheaper to buy a 300 Gallon tank, have it put on a boat and shipped here then it is to go down the street and have a local company make it. The Chinese tank is slightly lower quality but costs 2/3 the price and its shipped from across the world...

Energy, labor, rent, cost of living, etc.. are higher here so the goods cost more.
Mike

Some fair points , the exceptions are becoming the norm now. I work for the largest consumer products company in the world , i am in charge of millions of $$ worth supply contracts and project negotiations, i can tell you one thing ...during the past few years china, India , South Asian Countries are delivering products of much better quality than US made products. This is because their quality , process standards all has been pushed constantly due to killer competetion on a global scale....They are also leading in innovation not just manufacturing.

China , Korea ...is pretty much my second home...i am talking real world exp...no reading bs magazines , news media...which is biased. Its sheer ignorance if someone can draw conclusions of product quality based on origin of manufacture. Its a different world ...try living in USA with just US made products...good luck!

[packinDSS]

Originally Posted by vbmw335

Some fair points , the exceptions are becoming the norm now. I work for the largest consumer products company in the world , i am in charge of millions of $$ worth supply contracts and project negotiations, i can tell you one thing ...during the past few years china, India , South Asian Countries are delivering products of much better quality than US made products. This is because their quality , process standards all has been pushed constantly due to killer competetion on a global scale....They are also leading in innovation not just manufacturing.

China , Korea ...is pretty much my second home...i am talking real world exp...no reading bs magazines , news media...which is biased. Its sheer ignorance if someone can draw conclusions of product quality based on origin of manufacture. Its a different world ...try living in USA with just US made products...good luck!

Labor Unions ruined US manufacturing............They are out of control. $$$$ to make something that anyone off the street with some guidance can do............or for that matter someone from another country off the street....F the UNIONS they have gone to far!!!!

[ar design]

Originally Posted by packinDSS

Labor Unions ruined US manufacturing............They are out of control.

I could not agree more.

[vbmw335]

Originally Posted by packinDSS

Labor Unions ruined US manufacturing............They are out of control. $$$$ to make something that anyone off the street with some guidance can do............or for that matter someone from another country off the street....F the UNIONS they have gone to far!!!!

I agree...we have the best and most productive workforce of any country...sad to see it go this way. Unions are okay and work well in several nations ....but we have union mafia ..that's the problem.

[Kroy]

Originally Posted by vbmw335

Some fair points , the exceptions are becoming the norm now. I work for the largest consumer products company in the world , i am in charge of millions of $$ worth supply contracts and project negotiations, i can tell you one thing ...during the past few years china, India , South Asian Countries are delivering products of much better quality than US made products. This is because their quality , process standards all has been pushed constantly due to killer competetion on a global scale....They are also leading in innovation not just manufacturing.

China , Korea ...is pretty much my second home...i am talking real world exp...no reading bs magazines , news media...which is biased. Its sheer ignorance if someone can draw conclusions of product quality based on origin of manufacture. Its a different world ...try living in USA with just US made products...good luck!

I think some lady actually wrote a book about trying to live free of "made in China" products for a year or something. She concluded that while possible, that's all it is, possible. Life without China is nowhere near convenience, cost of living will go up and countless hours will be spent trying to locate substitutes for commonly available "made in China" goods. Just thought that was interesting.

Originally Posted by vbmw335

I agree...we have the best and most productive workforce of any country...sad to see it go this way. Unions are okay and work well in several nations ....but we have union mafia ..that's the problem.

+1

[kenneth]

Originally Posted by ar design

1. You made a statement. Just asking you to back it up, since you claim to have done testing, you should have data.

2. Again, you made a claim. Just asking you to back it up.

3. Quality materials always cost more. Quality labor always cost more. So you always get what you pay for.

Im not here to talk you down. I am asking you to provide data to back up your statements. Nothing more.

The way I see it, he doesn't have to answer to another vendor who was opportunistic and going after folks who joined this group buy. If it wasn't for Vince, members would not have got a better price from you.

Peace!

BTW, I bought your oil cooler over the VK one because it suited me better, not because yours was better quality.

[john boxter]

ok but you guys gotta admit something it would be better to buy parts made and manufactured with the technology and expectation of the US vs parts made in china whenever i see something made in china i think oh thats a cheap rip off yes i may be going overboard a little (still think there cheap rip offs though haha) but you gotta admit it PROBABLY is worse quality

[roozie2001]

my car is German. My TV and surround sound are Japanese. I have cologne that's made in France. But i live in America. So i guess if i buy a product made in china that puts money in a guys pocket that lives in Chicagoooo its Un-American of me. Hmmmmm. Hey Vince thanks for not including the ridiculous BMW mark up. Even if your DPs make 2whp less than the competition's. Im gonna rest easy knowing i paid $300 less than the other suckers did for some pipes.

[john boxter]

what if its 9 whp different :P

[jeffc31337]

Is there any actual proof a 2.5" set produces any less HP than 3"? Lots of people think bigger is always better which isn't always true. It's basically a trade off for less pressure drop post turbo with a 3" vs. more exhaust gas velocity/thermal efficiency with a 2.5". Every engine needs to be evaluated independently to determine what's best and even that can be subjective. Sometimes you trade a tad more lag/loss of low end for a few HP up top with a bigger pipe. Some might like this trade off, some may not.

AR Designs - YOu had asked VK if they had data to back up there prototype testing. I would ask you if you could provide the same showing you evaluated a 2.5" design and it did not meet your expectations?

I have no bone to pick as I don't even have a x35, just an interested forum member.

[ar design]

Originally Posted by jeffc31337

Is there any actual proof a 2.5" set produces any less HP than 3"? Lots of people think bigger is always better which isn't always true. It's basically a trade off for less pressure drop post turbo with a 3" vs. more exhaust gas velocity/thermal efficiency with a 2.5". Every engine needs to be evaluated independently to determine what's best and even that can be subjective. Sometimes you trade a tad more lag/loss of low end for a few HP up top with a bigger pipe. Some might like this trade off, some may not.

AR Designs - YOu had asked VK if they had data to back up there prototype testing. I would ask you if you could provide the same showing you evaluated a 2.5" design and it did not meet your expectations?

I have no bone to pick as I don't even have a x35, just an interested forum member.

It has been proven a billion times over that no exhaust is the best exhaust on a turbo.

We just built 3" downpipes for the B5 Audi S4. Picked up over 30awhp with test pipes and over 20awhp with HFC secondaries over a set of gutted primary cat OEM downpipes. Going from HFCs to test pipes, we lost virtually no torque, and picked up around 10awhp. OEM downpipes are either 2.5 or 2.25in.

[mwahlert]

Originally Posted by ar design

It has been proven a billion times over that no exhaust is the best exhaust on a turbo.

We just built 3" downpipes for the B5 Audi S4. Picked up over 30awhp with test pipes and over 20awhp with HFC secondaries over a set of gutted primary cat OEM downpipes. Going from HFCs to test pipes, we lost virtually no torque, and picked up around 10awhp. OEM downpipes are either 2.5 or 2.25in.

i hear this time and time and time and time again.... but people seem to forget that the motor does not spend 100% of its time IN boost. i have owned several turbo cars and although downpipes have always helped make more power when IN boost i can still most certainly say that a loss of low end torque off boost was noticed. just like on a NA engine...

[jeffc31337]

Originally Posted by ar design

It has been proven a billion times over that no exhaust is the best exhaust on a turbo.

We just built 3" downpipes for the B5 Audi S4. Picked up over 30awhp with test pipes and over 20awhp with HFC secondaries over a set of gutted primary cat OEM downpipes. Going from HFCs to test pipes, we lost virtually no torque, and picked up around 10awhp. OEM downpipes are either 2.5 or 2.25in.

An open dump is best yes as that maximizes flow and exhaust gas velocity is optimal as it is straight to atmosphere. But we are talking about street cars and not drag cars so that point is moot. You are forced to run a long tube exhaust so the question isn't about just flow, it's about thermal efficiency/exhaust gas velocity as well and there is a trade off with bigger pipes.

The question is not about HFC vs catless on the same diameter pipe, it's about the volume of air in the exhaust that has to be pushed as the turbo spools. With a 3" DP there is more air to be pushed which could lead to slight slower exhaust gas velocities.

All these things are just theory and it needs to be evaluated on an engine by engine basis. Since you asked VK for their test data I assumed you must have done the same which is why I was hoping you could share some of it. Again this it not mean to be any kind of attack, I'd love to see the VK test data as well! Just an interesting dicsussion.....

[kenneth]

Originally Posted by ar design

It has been proven a billion times over that no exhaust is the best exhaust on a turbo.

We just built 3" downpipes for the B5 Audi S4. Picked up over 30awhp with test pipes and over 20awhp with HFC secondaries over a set of gutted primary cat OEM downpipes. Going from HFCs to test pipes, we lost virtually no torque, and picked up around 10awhp. OEM downpipes are either 2.5 or 2.25in.

I don't think you answered the question relative to the 335/135. What does your downpipe (a 3 inch tapering to 2.5) give more than a 2.5 all the way?
1hp, 5hp, 10hp, 100hp more?

[kenneth]

Originally Posted by john boxter

ok but you guys gotta admit something it would be better to buy parts made and manufactured with the technology and expectation of the US vs parts made in china whenever i see something made in china i think oh thats a cheap rip off yes i may be going overboard a little (still think there cheap rip offs though haha) but you gotta admit it PROBABLY is worse quality

Most of what the world consume comes from China or some other Asian country, if you hadn't noticed. Quality really depends on the spec requirement and QC of the local company marketing/selling the product.

[Vince@ V K Motorwerks]

Im very pleased that we have such an educated and independent thinking forum. I implore you to talk to someone who has purchased one of our products and ask them what they think of the quality. Do they feel that they are getting an inferior product because its cost less? Most of our customers are repeat buyers the reason for that is because they know that we dont sacrifice quality to put out a product that is cheap. In fact, the downpipes are the only product that is not made in the USA. Our oil coolers and FMIC were all made here in the states and we purchased from US manufactures. I started this company because I was sick at the price gouging that was being done. I wanted an oil cooler that didn't come with my car but should have, BMW told me to kiss their ass, if I wanted it pay 2500 or I can go to dinan and pay 3000. I have a manufacturing consulting company that specializes in medical equipment so I had my contact tell me how much it would cost to make the kit. The price (made 100% in the USA) $420!!! hmmm.... I just want to put more options out there for consumers who are like me. I work hard for my money so I want that value of my dollar to take it as far as it can go. And yes, I know people have to wait a long time to get things out, but when they finally get it they are happy because the product was perfected and not rushed.

I am willing to meet up with someone who has AR catless downpipes in Illinois, wisconson, or indiana and we can take the car to a dyno, have you dyno with their downpipes and then ours and let the results do the talking since AR keeps eluding to the fact that they can make 30whp more. You know as well as I do that it is a well documented fact that the stock exhaust is actually very good in this car and not overly restrictive in its design.

I cant wait till you have these downpipes in your hands and see what im talking about.

Vince

[ar design]

Originally Posted by Vince@ V K Motorwerks

I was sick at the price gouging that was being done.

LOL, seriously? Making a quality product in the USA vs knocking parts off in China does not mean the USA company is gouging. Simply means we have higher costs due to higher quality materials and workmanship, and American workers producing the product. Our *cost* on the downpipes is higher than your sale price. there is a reason for that.

Originally Posted by Vince@ V K Motorwerks

since AR keeps eluding to the fact that they can make 30whp more. You know as well as I do that it is a well documented fact that the stock exhaust is actually very good in this car and not overly restrictive in its design.

That is not what I am trying to imply. Simply stating that larger diameter tube DOES make a difference, even on small turbos like a TD03 or a K04. Granted, some gains definitively came from losing the secondary cats - but not all of them. We have not done any specific testing on the 335i. You claim to have done so. So back it up.

Bottom line:

Claims were made that testing was done on 2.5" vs 3". Would love to see this data.
Claims were made that photos of prototypes and proper product development vs. copying were available. Would love to see those as promised.

Getting tired of repeating myself

[vbmw335]

Originally Posted by ar design

LOL, seriously? Making a quality product in the USA vs knocking parts off in China does not mean the USA company is gouging. Simply means we have higher costs due to higher quality materials and workmanship, and American workers producing the product. Our *cost* on the downpipes is higher than your sale price. there is a reason for that.



That is not what I am trying to imply. Simply stating that larger diameter tube DOES make a difference, even on small turbos like a TD03 or a K04. Granted, some gains definitively came from losing the secondary cats - but not all of them. We have not done any specific testing on the 335i. You claim to have done so. So back it up.

Bottom line:

Claims were made that testing was done on 2.5" vs 3". Would love to see this data.
Claims were made that photos of prototypes and proper product development vs. copying were available. Would love to see those as promised.

Getting tired of repeating myself

AR,

I am getting tired of your shameless bickering and your negative sales pitch...is that the only way you can sell your products?? dont your products have their own merits to sell on their own? Dude ...just wake up !!...MADE IN USA is NOT EQUAL TO BETTER QUALITY. We have some of the crapiest product designs and quality of most developed nations..we make F22's but also make some crappy cars ....you shouldnt be talking BMW then....buy something domestic.

Yoir Pitch makes sense ...if you live on ALL USA Made product only...try that.

If AR downpipes are that much better quality...people will pay the premium , just like someone would buy a Rolex, Omega over some other mid-low range watches.

You seem to be pleading to people here to see the value in your product by talking shit about others ...learn some good marketing and business skills , you will go much farther and not self destruct.

BTW....no matter what you do ...most of the downpipe market is already cornered by VK...so chill out and find some other opportunites instead of wasting time here and posting useless BS.

Learn this consumer is the king and we dictate the prices and value...we ask and companies like VK delivers, if you cant deliver then shut up and walk away.

Enough...i am out....

[scheherazade]

Originally Posted by packinDSS

Labor Unions ruined US manufacturing............They are out of control. $$$$ to make something that anyone off the street with some guidance can do............or for that matter someone from another country off the street....F the UNIONS they have gone to far!!!!

Yes, because bringing us things like the 'weekend' was so aweful.


And because we should be paying people sustenance pay, so unless you're management you should barely survive - nice outlook.


Things cost $ to manufacture in the U.S.A. because EVERYTHING costs more $ in a developed nation. Unionized labor is hardly a bunch of wealthy people. They're simply making a livable wage.

Hell, big 3 were complaining about labor costs, when *10%* of their vehicle's cost was labor. You could have people working for FREE, and you'd still pay 90% of what you were paying for a car.


You want people here to work for $15 dollars a day like they can overseas? Is that the kind of salary you want people to compete with?
Maybe if things cost like they do in the ass-end-of-nowhere, you could get by on $15 a day. But here? You would have to shack up 6 families to a house to survive on that kind of money. Oh wait, that's what the poorest illegal immigrants do... You want that kind of lifestyle to be the norm in the U.S.A.?




Too few people realize the power they have. This is why I've learned to be much more aggressive with what salary I look for. There's no shame in asking for a lot more income when you know that *you* make things happen, and the people 'in charge' *depend on you* to pay their bills.


I look at it like this :
- If things go poorly - management asks you to sacrifice or just dumps you on the street. Lower profits hit the work force immediately. Management stays safe.
- If things go well - management buys their kids new BMW's and goes on a trip to Cancun.
- No one will divide up unexpected profits among the work force. That would be too balanced of an approach.
- Never sacrifice yourself for the company, because the company will throw you under the wheels the first chance it gets.


If management in the U.S.A legally could do it, it would pay people $15 a day. If not less. It's their interest to maximize profits and bonuses, and they have no shame making sure the worker gets as little as possible.

It should be the workers interest to maximize their salary, and they shouldn't feel a bit of shame for trying.

Hence why I appreciate labor - they keep management in check.

Corporations lobby government to allow for smaller incomes, labor unions lobby government to keep incomes livable.

Either way 'the man' gets paid, but at least in the end you have a decent society.

One lifetime ago people had :
- no time off
- 7 day work week
- 16 hour work days
- paid just enough to make rent and buy food, nothing more.

That's what life is like without organized labor.
Back then most of any city population was working like animals. Without organized labor, odds are that most people here would have been born into that lifestyle.
You should thank 'Labor' for saving people from that sad lifestyle, for exploding the middle class, and for creating a recreational and consumer goods market... without which I seriously doubt that today you'd have a personal computer to even be on here to post your views.



The U.S.A. has a larger manufacturing GDP than any other nation on the planet.

2007 GDP from *manufacturing*

U.S.A. : 1.8 trillion USD
China : 1.1 trillion USD
Japan : 0.9 trillion USD
Germany : 0.6 trillion USD



What we don't manufacture much of is consumer goods - I.E. the crap you buy for kicks. Odds and ends at Wal-Mart.

When it comes to industrial manufacturing, the U.S.A. leads the planet.



2007 USA manufacturing breakdown :

production machinery and equipment : 31.4%
industrial supplies : 27.5%
non-auto consumer goods : 12.7%
motor vehicles and parts : 10.5%
aircraft and parts : 7.6%

Only 12% of what we make is something that you might typically buy on an average day.

Hence why to the average-Joe it looks like the U.S.A. doesn't manufacture anything... But it's quite the opposite.







Now if by 'Labor Unions ruined US manufacturing', you mean 'Labor Unions ruined US [consumer goods] manufacturing', then you must really be a fan of sweat-shops.

I personally would rather blame globalization for simply moving those jobs to places where salaries are so low that you can't compete in any reasonable way (short of entirely robotic factories).

Which doesn't bother me... I'd rather pay $1.50 for a pack of 3 t-shirts, instead of $5 each.


-scheherazade

[scheherazade]

Originally Posted by vbmw335

BTW....no matter what you do ...most of the downpipe market is already cornered by VK...so chill out and find some other opportunites instead of wasting time here and posting useless BS.

Learn this consumer is the king and we dictate the prices and value...we ask and companies like VK delivers, if you cant deliver then shut up and walk away.

I wouldn't put it that strongly.

This is what I remember :

VK decided to stop offering DPs after making a batch.

So they offered the ones they already made at a severe discount. (clearance on a discontinued product)

So many people showed up asking for the clearance DPs, that VK managed to turn it into a group buy and arrange to make a bunch more.



What is really going on is that there are way more 'cheap' people driving around in BMW's that I think many companies had calculated - and VK's price is right.



I tend to look at features, and then weigh the price against them.

I'm provisionally in the market for DPs. I currently have my eyes on :
AR - because of the large volume
CP-E - because the cast section has a very gradual exhaust flow direction change

I simply like the features of those two.



Alternatively, for an IC I would look at :
AMS - by sheer size, and smooth end tanks which should have less turbulence.
VK - size is also very good (only 8% less gain in volume compared to AMS), quick reversible installation is *awesome* for dealer visits.



If a product has features that make it desirable, there will be buyers.
Price isn't the end-all of purchasing decisions.

Consider value added vs price paid, and what's the value 'to you personally'.

-scheherazade

[CubanJJ09]

lets not forget that vince did make about 80 sets at one time thats def. gonna cut into the price making it cheaper.

and AR is funny, thanks for the laugh