|
|
|
|
|
|
BMW Garage | BMW Meets | Register | Today's Posts | Search |
|
BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum
>
Lifeguard6 = Mercon SP?
|
|
03-18-2010, 04:31 PM | #1 |
Banned
74
Rep 1,543
Posts |
Guys I did a lot of research as to what in the world our mystery factory fill ATF could be, and I think I finally found it. After a lot of searching, and phone calls to shell USA I have deduced the following:
According to the australian petrolium institute: http://www.lubeandtune.com.au/html/lubekey.asp their ASP15 classification includes the following fluids: -Ford Specification No. M2C 919D -Mercon SP Fluid Part No. XT-6QSP -Shell ATF M-1375.4 -ZF 6-speed Automatic Transmission Fluid, (Shell M-1375.4) Mercon SP Fluid is a newer transmission fluid made by shell for Ford dealers. Its easy to find online, and it retails for around $4:00+/quart. Things get really interesting when you look at the specs of lifeguard 6 found in the MSDS: http://www.tsgparts.net/images/pdf/Lifeguardfluid6.pdf and compare them to the specs of Mercon SP: http://www.fcsdchemicalsandlubricant...ERCON%20SP.pdf and http://www.fcsdchemicalsandlubricant...us175325us.pdf VERY similar specs, and the same color fluid. Last edited by Turkeybaster115; 03-23-2010 at 01:46 PM.. |
03-18-2010, 08:52 PM | #3 |
Banned
74
Rep 1,543
Posts |
You can get the lifeguard6/Shell M-1375.4 fluid for $4.68/quart here: http://www.ryderfleetproducts.com/cg...uct_detail.jsp
Before you get this fluid consider the following; which are my opinions, drawn from online research. Shell was tapped by ZF/Ford, to make this fluid for maximum fuel efficiency. it has very similar specs to amsoil's fuel efficiency transmission fluid: http://www.amsoil.com/storefront/atl.aspx (Scroll to the bottom of the page). If you are in/out of warranty, want to change your ATF fluid, with oem, for considerably less than what the dealer will charge, then get the mecron SP stuff. Now for those who have higher torque vehicles with the 6hp19/26 transmissions, you might want to opt for a fluid that will trade you gas mileage for decreased fluid temps. This is especially true if you plan on occasional racing, or power increasing modifications. If you look at amsoil, and redline, you find that they each offer a line of racing/high temp fluid products. These products offer better thermal protection for racing or high torque vehicles. Looking closely, there're specs differ from the fuel efficient lines. Most notebly: KV @ 40C 7.5-10cst; KV @ 100C 34-53cst VI: 177+, Flash point 225 F+. Clearly the higher the fluid's KV/VI/Flash point, the more shear stable it is under abnormal stress. The above listed racing fluids are on the high end. You can have slightly more thermal protection than stock with several other fluids(KV 40C: 7-8, KV 100C 34-38, VI 165+, Flash Point 212 C+: -Castrol multi-vehicle atf TE ML 11A -Pentosin ATF 1 TE ML 11B -castrol transmax TE ML 11B, 14C! None TE ML optoins include: -amsoil universal atf -valvoline max life -royal purple max gear -etc. Last edited by Turkeybaster115; 03-25-2010 at 11:03 AM.. |
Appreciate
0
|
03-19-2010, 07:17 AM | #4 | |
Lieutenant General
3596
Rep 10,358
Posts |
Quote:
Last edited by F32Fleet; 03-19-2010 at 07:47 AM.. |
|
Appreciate
0
|
03-19-2010, 08:54 AM | #5 |
Banned
74
Rep 1,543
Posts |
Its not a substitute, it is LG6! kinda how pentosin atf1 is LG5. Mercon SP is manufactured in houston texas by shell for Ford, while LG6 is manufactured in europe for ZF. The houston texas facility started making the fluid in 2007. Castrol Multi vehicle atf is a lower quality substitute, according to TE ML 11A but not an equivalent. In order to meet M-1375.4, you have to have a KV 40C of 28, and a KV 100C of 5.5-6.5, and a vapour pressure of <0.5 @ 20C PA. oh and a nice brown color with a strong mineral oil odor helps too! I'm currently trying to figure out what LG8 is
Last edited by Turkeybaster115; 03-19-2010 at 10:21 AM.. |
Appreciate
0
|
03-19-2010, 09:58 AM | #6 | |
Lieutenant General
3596
Rep 10,358
Posts |
Quote:
|
|
Appreciate
0
|
03-19-2010, 10:20 AM | #7 |
Banned
74
Rep 1,543
Posts |
|
Appreciate
0
|
03-20-2010, 05:25 PM | #8 |
Banned
74
Rep 1,543
Posts |
I just wanted to explain to you guys my obsession with automatic transmission fluids. I used to own an '03 acura TL type S, and those cars suffered from a high failure rate. Due to fatalities from these failures, The NHTSA launched an investigation. The acura online community was able to obtain the documentation from the investigation, and we learned a lot about transmissions from it. Multiple problems plagued these transmissions, however, the 3rd gear clutch pack burning out, and causing the tranny to suddenly drop through the gears was the most common problem. Here is a link to the long investigation: http://cl.acurazine.com/forums/showt...y+wrong+tranny when performing up shifts and down shifts, the ATF fluid is faced with bringing down clutch pack temps of up to 300C+! (p.642). So that is why automatic transmission fluid quality is very important. Be more conservative (30-40K miles) with drain intervals, and upgrade to the moderate or racing alternative fluids, that I listed, if you plan on racing! You can read more about automatic transmission fluids here: http://www.castrol.com/liveassets/bp...uids_B1191.pdf
|
Appreciate
0
|
03-20-2010, 08:07 PM | #9 |
Captain
104
Rep 934
Posts |
Thanks for the writeup. I'm still not convinced this is equivalent to M1375.4 as the price difference is huge. I have a suspicion that the base oils and additives may be different (maybe the Ford is not synthetic (to keep costs down) but LG6 is?)
|
Appreciate
0
|
03-20-2010, 10:46 PM | #10 |
Banned
74
Rep 1,543
Posts |
The chemical composition of the LG6 is on page 2 of the MSDS: Mineral oil+ additives. The Mercon SP is the same thing too: "petroleum distilates" page 1 "Base oil: highly refined" Page 11. The price difference could be because Mercon is made here in the US, and not imported. Also, ford drivers, don't have the same disposable income as BMW drivers.
|
Appreciate
0
|
03-22-2010, 07:56 AM | #11 | |
Lieutenant General
3596
Rep 10,358
Posts |
Quote:
|
|
Appreciate
0
|
03-22-2010, 08:41 AM | #12 |
Banned
74
Rep 1,543
Posts |
|
Appreciate
0
|
03-22-2010, 08:45 AM | #13 |
Lieutenant General
3596
Rep 10,358
Posts |
I don't know, but that's a direct quote. There must be something that LG6 has which is missing from Mercon SP. Maybe it's all part of the Shell 1375.4 family, but that's where the similarities end.
|
Appreciate
0
|
03-22-2010, 09:42 AM | #14 |
Banned
74
Rep 1,543
Posts |
Well to confirm, I just called the Ford Motor company in Dearborn Michigan, and they say Mercon SP is the same as Shell M-1375.4.
|
Appreciate
0
|
03-22-2010, 09:49 AM | #15 |
Lieutenant General
3596
Rep 10,358
Posts |
Which may be the case. Maybe Shell M-1375.4 is the base, Mercon SP isn't far off from that base,and LG6 family has and additional additive which makes it a "higher grade" of M-1375.4. Something that may confirm such is whether or not the barrels of OEM and LG6 fluid state "Made in Germany" or "USA". Maybe a call into Shell is required.
|
Appreciate
0
|
03-22-2010, 09:59 AM | #16 | |
Banned
74
Rep 1,543
Posts |
Quote:
-Both Made By shell -Both Brown -Both have mineral oil odor -Both have a KV 40 of 28 mm2/s or cst -Both have a Vapour pressure <0.5@20C Pa -Materials to avoid for both: oxidizing agents -Both decompose and give off the same by-products: CO, CO2, other hydrocarbons -Both use mineral base oil+ additives Dissimilarities -One’s measured in liters, the other one in quarts -One has a ZF label, the other one has a Motorcraft Mercon SP Label -One made by shell USA, the other one Shell Europe -One costs $4.68 per quart, the other costs $60/Liter |
|
Appreciate
0
|
03-22-2010, 10:01 AM | #17 | |
Banned
74
Rep 1,543
Posts |
Quote:
Shell M-1375.4 is a specification (a set of ranges if you will), in my opinion. Last edited by Turkeybaster115; 03-22-2010 at 10:18 AM.. |
|
Appreciate
0
|
03-22-2010, 11:31 AM | #18 | |
Lieutenant General
3596
Rep 10,358
Posts |
Quote:
Edit: I just got off the phone with Shell USA. The only application for this fluid in the US is for the ZF gearbox, and not Ford or Mercon SP. The rep also stated per the database that, in the US, M-1375.4 is no longer manufactured and has been replaced. Interesting post on ATF: http://www.cartechbooks.com/vstore/s...=3578&CATID=21 (lends credence to my suspicion that there are different grades or "versions" of a certain brand of ATF) Look here: http://www.lubesonline.com.au/lubeca...cs&topic_id=12 This is the same list you found from AU however LG6 and Shell 1375.4 are listed under their own category seperate from Mercon SP/FORD. Last edited by F32Fleet; 03-22-2010 at 12:40 PM.. |
|
Appreciate
0
|
03-22-2010, 02:00 PM | #19 | ||||
Banned
74
Rep 1,543
Posts |
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
http://www.tsgparts.net/images/pdf/Lifeguardfluid5.pdf http://images.imcparts.net/shared/do...ssolt71141.pdf If they're re-babeling this, why is it hard to believe, that what they're re-labeling as LG6 isn't being sold to other markets? I'm not even going to ask what the price difference between LG5 and pentosin ATF1 is. Most E46 owners, didn't even look like they cared either, they saved their money further, and bravely used Redline D4 ATF! Since the dealer wanted them to give an arm away to ZF for re-labeled fluid, or never change their fluid at all. Quote:
ASP15 Automatic Transmission Fluid Ford Specification No. M2C 919D Mercon SP Fluid Part No. XT-6QSP Shell ATF M-1375.4 ZF 6-speed Automatic Transmission Fluid, Shell M-1375.4 People are trying to spread the word, to avoid overpaying for the same thing. Last edited by Turkeybaster115; 03-22-2010 at 02:22 PM.. |
||||
Appreciate
0
|
03-22-2010, 02:39 PM | #20 |
Lieutenant General
3596
Rep 10,358
Posts |
My error. I didn't notice the part # for the Mercon SP continued to the line below. Missread it as a seperate line.
I spoke with business services/products department/lubricants at Shell. As for my site regardings labeling of off market ATF your comment concerning Pentosin ATF1 is a perfect example. Bottle says it's applicable for 6HP but Pentosin PDS sheet states no. I'm about spent with this and I've seen you've been questioning this all over the internet since 2009. #1 What I know is that M-1375.4 is a base lubricant and brand specific additive packages are added. #2 I also know that sans one guy (Pentosin Rep) there is a handful of people (Even this guy who emailed me his opinion @ http://www.meurosport.com/ZF_Transmission_Fluid.php) who recommend against using any other ATF other than LG6 or OEM for the ZF 6HP. #3 Multi-spec ATF's can only meet the most BASIC of specifications of what they say on the bottle/PDS. #4 MSDS does not tell you everything about the fluid. It tells you about the basic attributes but that's it. #5 You're unlikely to experience any problems in the short run (within 10-20k miles) using a fluid which is close to OEM if you're running shorter change intervals. (Ex, You use ATF1 since it says 6HP on the bottle, yet you've developed decreased MPG's, so obviously the fluid isn't the same a LG6. Note: LG6 isn't bad, but it's the change intervals which may be bad regardless of fluid used) #6 So if Amsoil sales bunnies are "not that smart" yet plenty of E46 BMW owners were sold Amsoil ATF for their A/Ts', whose the dumb one??? Last edited by F32Fleet; 03-22-2010 at 02:49 PM.. |
Appreciate
0
|
03-22-2010, 03:24 PM | #21 | |||||||||
Banned
74
Rep 1,543
Posts |
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
E46 M3 owners buy hype! After all they all use mineral oil based castrol 10W 60 TWS, and swear buy it. Even when they are shown proof of how castrol has been droping the PPM of ZDDP in that fluid over the last decade, they are still on the bus! I prefere non-M E46 owners. They have less disposable incomes, and don't have time for marked up dealership tap water. They are strong. Just like my australian brothers. Socom, You wouldn't last a day, in the outback! Last edited by Turkeybaster115; 03-22-2010 at 03:45 PM.. |
|||||||||
Appreciate
0
|
03-22-2010, 03:47 PM | #22 | |
Lieutenant General
3596
Rep 10,358
Posts |
Quote:
And true to form you resort to personal attacks which I can't for the life of me figure out why. Being that you're in Illinois, I can only surmise that you spent too much time in the outback yourself and felt cozy U.S of A was more palatable. In any case, I'm NOT trying to prove that you're wrong. I'm just trying to push through the hype. Oh and something I thought about regarding your call to Shell in Houston. They may indeed make 1375.4 but maybe it's exported. What would you like me to do when one of the product experts says "It's an old fluid made for ZF, not Ford or Mercon SP, and no longer manufactured in US"?? |
|
Appreciate
0
|
Bookmarks |
|
|