[TDIwyse]

You appear to be using a massive amount of fluid injection. Laughed out loud at your king sized purchase of methanol ... just love everything about that :-)

Originally Posted by iaknown

I believe TDIwyse uses Blackstone Labs.....It just sounds like you are using a lot of spray compared to others, although you have a fair nozzle size. Just worth getting checked once to make sure everything looks good.

I agree with iaknown on getting some data on the oil/engine. I actually use a local Caterpillar dealerships internal fluid analysis lab and not Blackstone. But I wouldn't hesitate to use Blackstone either.

Here's a couple fluid analysis results for a reference point. Since I was using water/methanol injection and fairly high levels of biodiesel, I was glad to see no issues with either. Also, this was comparing a Mobil 1 5w-40 ESP to a Shell Rotella T6 5w-40 (don't use this if you have all the ABC stuff on your car).

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showpo...6&postcount=25

[Chief Orman]

Originally Posted by TDIwyse

You appear to be using a massive amount of fluid injection. Laughed out loud at your king sized purchase of methanol ... just love everything about that :-)

I agree with iaknown on getting some data on the oil/engine. I actually use a local Caterpillar dealerships internal fluid analysis lab and not Blackstone. But I wouldn't hesitate to use Blackstone either.

Here's a couple fluid analysis results for a reference point. Since I was using water/methanol injection and fairly high levels of biodiesel, I was glad to see no issues with either. Also, this was comparing a Mobil 1 5w-40 ESP to a Shell Rotella T6 5w-40 (don't use this if you have all the ABC stuff on your car).

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showpo...6&postcount=25

Yeah well now you know what my wife deals with...I have been known to be a little obsessive compulsive about this godamn car. With a 100 gallons of meth bought and paid for there ain't no going back now!

TDI you recommend Mobil 1 even with the emissions intact?

I am going to change the oil today so I can get an analysis done and would love to know the best low ash oil to use.

[TDIwyse]

Originally Posted by Chief Orman

...

TDI you recommend Mobil 1 even with the emissions intact?

I am going to change the oil today so I can get an analysis done and would love to know the best low ash oil to use.

The Mobil 1 was ESP, which should work well with all the emissions components. The Shell T6 would be sub optimum for such a vehicle.

[Chief Orman]

Just for the hell of it I plugged in my Racechip USA and swapped out my Chipexpress. Based on a few runs I was surprised by how much better the driveability is with the Racechip however even with the Racechip turned up to 7 (s2) I gave up 10 to 15 hp. That said flat out my Temps peaked at 910. This was with 50/50 meth.

[BMW335D88]

who knows in ilinois a shop or someone to install watermeth in my D?

[Chief Orman]

Here are some preliminary Torque Pro results. By way of background, I ran my car stock, Racechip Ultimate and Chipexpress. With regard to the tuning boxes, they were both turned up as high as possible before CELs were thrown.

Ignore the 1/4 mile times as well as 0-60 times. I have yet to crack the code on timed runs (yes I know to calibrate the accelerometer)

Below is Racechip Ultimate with and without meth:

Second two are stock with/wo meth:

Last two Chipexpress with/ w/o meth:

[Chief Orman]

Based on the above, best combo is Chipexpress with meth.

In case you can't read the above:

Racechip Ultimate with no meth:
HP: 310.9
Torque: 380
Boost max: 25.9
AFR lowest : 14.5
Air mass:42.3
EGT pre dpf max: 891

Racechip Ultimate with meth:
HP: 334
Torque: 430
Boost max: 27.1
AFR lowest : 14.4
Air mass:42.6
EGT pre dpf max: 1043

Stock no meth:
HP: 261
Torque: 387
Boost max: 25.7
AFR lowest : 14.5
Air mass:41.3
EGT pre dpf max: 883

Stock with meth:
HP: 319.4
Torque: 410.2
Boost max: 27.1
AFR lowest : 14.5
Air mass:42.5
EGT pre dpf max: 1030

Chipexpress no meth
HP: 301.6
Torque: 424
Boost max: 26.8
AFR lowest : 13.4
Air mass:42.2
EGT pre dpf max: 987

Chipexpress with meth
HP: 358
Torque: 442.5
Boost max: 28
AFR lowest : 13.4
Air mass:43
EGT pre dpf max: 1181

[TDIwyse]

Originally Posted by Chief Orman

Here are some preliminary Torque Pro results. By way of background, I ran my car stock, Racechip Ultimate and Chipexpress. With regard to the tuning boxes, they were both turned up as high as possible before CELs were thrown.

Ignore the 1/4 mile times as well as 0-60 times. I have yet to crack the code on timed runs (yes I know to calibrate the accelerometer)

Below is Racechip Ultimate with and without meth:

Second two are stock with/wo meth:

Last two Chipexpress w/o meth:

Data :-)

That's looking pretty good. I'd suggest using the logging function and then doing some spreadsheet manipulation to increase the visibility into what's going on across the rpm band.

You're getting to the level where I'd be concerned with post turbo EGT's on the higher output combination. I wouldn't be surprised if we're pushing ~400F temp drops across the turbo at these higher power output levels...

Also, you're getting into the range where the MAF is likely at it's limit. The HFM6 has a highest rating of ~ 1150 kg/hr, or 42.3 lb/min.

http://rb-aa.bosch.com/boaasocs/;jse...od_id=&lang=en

An example of importing a Torque log into a spreadsheet and doing an x-y scatter plot to show MAF vs RPM for a 4th gear pull I did yesterday is attached (MAF reading pegs at 44.09 lb/min which appears to be the limit for the MAF in my car). On this 4th gear pull my max EGT was 993F. Water/methanol starts coming on at ~3200 rpm.

[Chief Orman]

Originally Posted by TDIwyse

Data :-)


You're getting to the level where I'd be concerned with post turbo EGT's on the higher output combination. I wouldn't be surprised if we're pushing ~400F temp drops across the turbo at these higher power output levels...

Also, you're getting into the range where the MAF is likely at it's limit. The HFM6 has a highest rating of ~ 1150 kg/hr, or 42.3 lb/min.

http://rb-aa.bosch.com/boaasocs/;jse...od_id=&lang=en

An example of importing a Torque log into a spreadsheet and doing an x-y scatter plot to show MAF vs RPM for a 4th gear pull I did yesterday is attached (MAF reading pegs at 44.09 lb/min which appears to be the limit for the MAF in my car). On this 4th gear pull my max EGT was 993F. Water/methanol starts coming on at ~3200 rpm.

TDI...very helpful. I actually did log all the runs and the parameters recommended by DWR. I will plot on a spreadsheet this evening.

I am not sure I am following your comments about EGTS. Should I be concerned that I reached 1181 with the most powerful configuration? Is it too simplistic to ask what my target EGTs should be? I suppose so given the number of parameters. I have to confess that I was relieved to get back down below 1,200 thanks to running 50/50 meth.

What is the concern about MAF? What happens if one exceeds the capacity of the MAF?

[TDIwyse]

Originally Posted by Chief Orman

TDI...very helpful. I actually did log all the runs and the parameters recommended by DWR. I will plot on a spreadsheet this evening.

I am not sure I am following your comments about EGTS. Should I be concerned that I reached 1181 with the most powerful configuration? Is it too simplistic to ask what my target EGTs should be? I suppose so given the number of parameters. I have to confess that I was relieved to get back down below 1,200 thanks to running 50/50 meth.

What is the concern about MAF? What happens if one exceeds the capacity of the MAF?

A saturated MAF just means the actual air flow may be higher than what the system is measuring. Not necessarily good or bad, depending on what one is trying to do and how your fueling maps are set up. Or, if for instance, you're using an engine simulator like matchbot to back calculate the theoretical engine hp based on boost, AFR, MAF, rpm, etc... you might be getting a lower output than what might be occurring due to error in the sensor outputs you plug into the software.

Regarding EGT's (you might want to change your previous post to be EGT instead of EGR... 2 different things) if your post turbo EGT is ~1200F and you're dropping ~400F from the manifold to the turbo outlet (the driving of the turbo extracts heat ... by looking at your exhaust manifold pressure vs intake manifold pressure you can get an idea on how efficiently the turbo producing boost) then you're at ~1600F in the exhaust manifold. That would make me concerned for a 4th gear pull. Especially if you're fueling like that for a 1/4 mile pull as shifting into 5th gear for me shows a continued increase in EGT's.

[Chief Orman]

Originally Posted by TDIwyse

A saturated MAF just means the actual air flow may be higher than what the system is measuring. Not necessarily good or bad, depending on what one is trying to do and how your fueling maps are set up. Or, if for instance, you're using an engine simulator like matchbot to back calculate the theoretical engine hp based on boost, AFR, MAF, rpm, etc... you might be getting a lower output than what might be occurring due to error in the sensor outputs you plug into the software.

Regarding EGT's (you might want to change your previous post to be EGT instead of EGR... 2 different things) if your post turbo EGT is ~1200F and you're dropping ~400F from the manifold to the turbo outlet (the driving of the turbo extracts heat ... by looking at your exhaust manifold pressure vs intake manifold pressure you can get an idea on how efficiently the turbo producing boost) then you're at ~1600F in the exhaust manifold. That would make me concerned for a 4th gear pull. Especially if you're fueling like that for a 1/4 mile pull as shifting into 5th gear for me shows a continued increase in EGT's.

TDI bear with me since I know nothing in this area. It sounds like we don't have a way to directly measure the exhaust manifold temps based on what you said above. Your concern, if I am understanding it correctly, is I might be running very high temps at the exhaust manifold (1,600) leaving aside the readings from DWR's/Torque Pro PIDs (pre doc; post doc; pre scr temps). Moreover, if I measure my exhaust manifold pressure vs intake manifold pressure...here is where I am lost...what exactly am I trying to calculate or how do I get closer to figuring out my exhaust manifold temps? Of the various temp readings that are available on Torque Pro/Carly etc. what are the most important to pay attention to:

TorquePro
-Exhaust Temp Post Doc (I think this is temp pre DPF)
-Exhaust Temp Pre Doc
-Exhaust Temp Pre SCR
-Catalyst Temp
-Exhaust Gas Temperature

Carly
-Exhaust gas temp after the EGR cooler
-Exhaust gas temp before the DPF
-Exhaust gas temp before the catalyst
-Exhaust gas temp before the catalytic converter
-Exhaust gas temp upstream of the catalyst
-Exhaust gas temp upstream of the particle
-Temperature catalyst bank
-Temperature after the EGR cooler

I know some of these are repetitive, but for new folks understanding which readings to pay attention to is difficult and not obvious.

Finally, on a relative basis given the additional amount of power generated (260HP to 358HP / 387 ft lbs to 442 ft lbs), I did not think the increased temps I reported above are totally out of whack (i.e., dangerous), but then again I don't know what the hell I am talking about.

[TDIwyse]

Originally Posted by Chief Orman

TDI bear with me since I know nothing in this area. It sounds like we don't have a way to directly measure the exhaust manifold temps based on what you said above. Your concern, if I am understanding it correctly, is I might be running very high temps at the exhaust manifold (1,600) leaving aside the readings from DWR's/Torque Pro PIDs (pre doc; post doc; pre scr temps). Moreover, if I measure my exhaust manifold pressure vs intake manifold pressure...here is where I am lost...what exactly am I trying to calculate or how do I get closer to figuring out my exhaust manifold temps? .....

This is a "general" overview on EGT's that has some decent info in it and why you should be concerned.

http://www.bankspower.com/techarticl...t-is-important

We don't have an EGT probe pre-turbo (but do have 3 post turbo), so we can't measure it with Torque, Carly or TestO. One could drill/tap the exhaust manifold and add a probe (this is common in the diesel truck crowd, and I've done that on my Ram). But to date I'm not aware of anyone posting data with this modification of the 335d (please correct me if I'm wrong on this and please post a link... would love to see pre/post turbo EGT data).

The ratio of exhaust drive pressure to boost pressure gives you insight into how efficient the turbo is at producing boost and can give "some" insight into what kind of temperature variation pre/post turbo one might see at these peak levels. For example, a turbo outside it's efficiency range would likely have a larger temp drop than a turbo operating in a high efficiency range.

One of many online examples of drive pressure ratio and what to look for can be found here (note, I have no first hand knowledge of this, just showing this as an example): http://www.trucktrend.com/news/1406-...e-perspective/

Units that regularly saw elevated boost levels (30 psi or more), high drive pressure (55 psi or more), and shaft speeds exceeding 160,000 rpm could quickly bite the dust, and tuned 6.7Ls have become almost synonymous with turbo failure.

In the above case, if it took 55 psig of drive pressure to produce 30 psig of intake boost, the psig ratio would be 55/30 = 1.83. That's a turbo operating outside a good efficiency range. Evidently for that turbo it was getting to be too much stress and failures were starting to show up. I'm not sure what level is "safe" for our turbo's, but this is the reason why some of us at higher power levels started modifying the wastegates to stop boost creep and drive pressure issues, and why others are upgrading the stock turbo's.

You're entering places where there be dragons. It's cheaper to tread carefully and mind your sensors.

[Chief Orman]

Originally Posted by TDIwyse

This is a "general" overview on EGT's that has some decent info in it and why you should be concerned.

http://www.bankspower.com/techarticl...t-is-important

We don't have an EGT probe pre-turbo (but do have 3 post turbo), so we can't measure it with Torque, Carly or TestO. One could drill/tap the exhaust manifold and add a probe (this is common in the diesel truck crowd, and I've done that on my Ram). But to date I'm not aware of anyone posting data with this modification of the 335d (please correct me if I'm wrong on this and please post a link... would love to see pre/post turbo EGT data).

The ratio of exhaust drive pressure to boost pressure gives you insight into how efficient the turbo is at producing boost and can give "some" insight into what kind of temperature variation pre/post turbo one might see at these peak levels. For example, a turbo outside it's efficiency range would likely have a larger temp drop than a turbo operating in a high efficiency range.

One of many online examples of drive pressure ratio and what to look for can be found here (note, I have no first hand knowledge of this, just showing this as an example): http://www.trucktrend.com/news/1406-...e-perspective/

Units that regularly saw elevated boost levels (30 psi or more), high drive pressure (55 psi or more), and shaft speeds exceeding 160,000 rpm could quickly bite the dust, and tuned 6.7Ls have become almost synonymous with turbo failure.

In the above case, if it took 55 psig of drive pressure to produce 30 psig of intake boost, the psig ratio would be 55/30 = 1.83. That's a turbo operating outside a good efficiency range. Evidently for that turbo it was getting to be too much stress and failures were starting to show up. I'm not sure what level is "safe" for our turbo's, but this is the reason why some of us at higher power levels started modifying the wastegates to stop boost creep and drive pressure issues, and why others are upgrading the stock turbo's.

You're entering places where there be dragons. It's cheaper to tread carefully and mind your sensors.

Thanks TDI...what great information. I really appreciate you providing more information.

I am feeling inclined to shoot for keeping my EGTs sub 1,000 degrees. Hopefully that will provide some margin of safety. I am also going to upgrade my IC.

I assume that getting rid of the alphabet soup helps with temps. unfortunately as a CA resident that is not in the cards for me.

[Chief Orman]

Originally Posted by DWR

I know you mean higher EGT. Any methanol that gets combusted always means more heat. The proposition is really that the energy needed to turn water into superheated steam is equal to the heat energy provided by an equal amount of combusted methanol.

Let's do a little thermodynamics with a pound of 82F water and a pound of methanol. Methanol has 9,500 BTU/lb, but in the combustion chamber roughly a third will be thermal loss to coolant, a third to work moving the piston, and a third to heating the exhaust. So maybe 3200 BTUs can be used to heat up the water. It will take at least 130 BTUs to bring the water up to the boiling point of 212F (note I am not accounting for the higher boiling point under boosted conditions) and another 970 BTUs to turn it into steam. That leaves us with 2100 BTUs to heat the steam. At combustion chamber pressures, it takes a little over 3 BTU/lb to gain 1F. So a 700F increase above 212F is 912F. Pretty close to a non injected H20/meth exhaust temp. The heat balance looks good.

But there are other effects that can skew our results. If evaporative cooling happens pre combustion chamber the density of the air charge can increase the AFR. Raising AFR tends to lower EGT. The lower the AFR, the greater the effect. However, the cooling effect pre combustion chamber depends on the temperature, pressure and relative humidity of the air charge. If evaporation is decreased pre combustion chamber, then the combustion chamber effects are increased. Those effects are primarily a delay of ignition and lower peak pressure and temperature. That can be good or bad depending on many other factors ... that I will not discuss in this post.

Finally, we may want a somewhat higher exhaust temp to optimize the combustion rate at higher rpms. This is what I was getting at in an earlier post when I mentioned that the optimum mixture ratio varies with rpm.

DWR what is your take on the numbers below?

Based on the below, best combo is Chipexpress with meth.

Racechip Ultimate with no meth:
HP: 310.9
Torque: 380
Boost max: 25.9
AFR lowest : 14.5
Air mass:42.3
EGT pre dpf max: 891

Racechip Ultimate with meth:
HP: 334
Torque: 430
Boost max: 27.1
AFR lowest : 14.4
Air mass:42.6
EGT pre dpf max: 1043

Stock no meth:
HP: 261
Torque: 387
Boost max: 25.7
AFR lowest : 14.5
Air mass:41.3
EGT pre dpf max: 883

Stock with meth:
HP: 319.4
Torque: 410.2
Boost max: 27.1
AFR lowest : 14.5
Air mass:42.5
EGT pre dpf max: 1030

Chipexpress no meth
HP: 301.6
Torque: 424
Boost max: 26.8
AFR lowest : 13.4
Air mass:42.2
EGT pre dpf max: 987

Chipexpress with meth
HP: 358
Torque: 442.5
Boost max: 28
AFR lowest : 13.4
Air mass:43
EGT pre dpf max: 1181

[Barmlot]

Originally Posted by DWR

Good Luck. Don't think I'll be reponding to this thread again. I'm going into silent mode for a while.

Unfortunately DWR has gone into "silent mode"

[CantSitStill]

Old post i know but it was probably the most informative post i have seen with regards to meth on the 335d. I have a 435d and i am looking installing meth. My plan is to setup my own DIY system with 2 nozzles controlled by boost sensors (one low and one full boost). I was wondering what sort of mix to use and this post helps. Also what nozzle to use.

For this problem here where the EGT's going high and wanting to maintain good power gains is this not a symptom of using too small a nozzle with too high a methanol mix (not enough water)? Would you not get best of both (same good power and lower EGT's) by using 50/50 and a much bigger full boost nozzle (say 700-1000cc). From reading more water will not reduce power unless you add too much. I also read the latest snow performance kit just injection more mix (higher duty cycle on the pump) when it reads EGT's being too high.

Chief Orman do you still run this setup and what nozzle/mix/injection psi's are you using now. Also what pump pressure do you get?

Thanks

[Chief Orman]

Originally Posted by CantSitStill

Old post i know but it was probably the most informative post i have seen with regards to meth on the 335d. I have a 435d and i am looking installing meth. My plan is to setup my own DIY system with 2 nozzles controlled by boost sensors (one low and one full boost). I was wondering what sort of mix to use and this post helps. Also what nozzle to use.

For this problem here where the EGT's going high and wanting to maintain good power gains is this not a symptom of using too small a nozzle with too high a methanol mix (not enough water)? Would you not get best of both (same good power and lower EGT's) by using 50/50 and a much bigger full boost nozzle (say 700-1000cc). From reading more water will not reduce power unless you add too much. I also read the latest snow performance kit just injection more mix (higher duty cycle on the pump) when it reads EGT's being too high.

Chief Orman do you still run this setup and what nozzle/mix/injection psi's are you using now. Also what pump pressure do you get?

Thanks

Yeah...boy I spent a lot of time on this stuff a couple of years ago. My car burns through water and meth like there is no tomorrow. I think I need to look for a leak. Anyone want to put in their two cents on nozzle sizes?