[kjrulz]

Originally Posted by Focus

I'm sadly right, while it this shouldnt have to be the way things are done, it is. It's the economic climate we're in now. Look at what the wireless companies do to each other

Shiv,

I for one am someone truly interested in this kit do to ease of install. But on the same token saving an hour or so of time would not be worth $100's of dollars more over a competitors product if the proposed gain and " benefits " are minimal. Most consumers and people nowadays need to truly SEE the benefit that you speak of over the other conventional system, consider me one of them. If logs are posted showing the PWN system to be well worth it's money, i have $$ sitting in my account waiting to hit the submit button on the purchase screen. Until then not providing such logged differences between the 2 systems but only talking about how better yours is keeps someone like me who WANTS this system from you actually purchasing it. Todays purchaser needs to see facts and proof, that's one reason i chose to go to procede route because to do facts/testimonials/logs it seemed to be the best choice for what I want to do with my vehicle.

^ This is all i feel the masses are asking for...

completely agree.

some of what Shiv is saying makes sense but at the same token, how do i know what is actually happening under the hood in real like situations? then...how do i know it's actually better than the PPS system?

i could care less about the extra few hundred, but i'm not going to spend it only to find out i've been had...

[Focus]

Originally Posted by kjrulz

completely agree.

some of what Shiv is saying makes sense but at the same token, how do i know what is actually happening under the hood in real like situations? then...how do i know it's actually better than the PPS system?

i could care less about the extra few hundred, but i'm not going to spend it only to find out i've been had...

Dont get me wrong, i know the system is good, i think everyone's question is is a price-justifyingly good.

[RambleJ]

Originally Posted by Focus

404 LOGS NOT FOUND

That was a good little laugh in the morning

[Skydive]

Gentlemen,

I don't think anyone is implying that Vishnu's PWM implementation under-performs its less expensive counterpart. Short of Clap, who has said many, often contradictory things which lead me to believe that he is mostly driven by his need to be perceived as "right" in the community, rather than actually doing his homework and making the best choices, not even the direct competitor is suggesting that the Vishnu kit isn't good, but rather the issue is mostly that the Vishnu kit is more expensive than pressure modulated systems, and Aquamist's general use PWM kits.

Since the BMS folks have correctly stated that the Vishnu kit requires a Vishnu tune, and their yet-to-be-announced alternative will require a BMS tune, the debate is really quite a bit more narrow than this thread would suggest.

It makes sense for folks who are inclined toward methanol injection to choose the kit that goes with the tune they've already chosen unless they are already unhappy with the tune they've chosen and inclined to change over to the other, but that's about more than just the methanol injection issue.

If you've got an existing legacy methanol kit one one of those tunes, you will have to wait and see if the performance and safety deltas associated with the newer implementations is worth the price of the upgrade.

If you don't have either the Vishnu tune or the BMS tune, you get to choose either one, and the corresponding methanol kit or perhaps neither one, plus a methanol implementation which is not integrated with the tuning directly. This category is the "big" issue.

As someone who has done a fair bit of work on other platforms of various types, including various methanol injection implementations, tight integration is of significant value to me. I have moved past the point in my life where peak horsepower is important to me, particularly in a car that I drive every day in Los Angeles where summers are long and hot, and gasoline is shitty and expensive. Instead, I am concerned about long term welfare of an expensive, sophisticated engine in that car. Given that ambient temperatures here frequently reach 100+ degrees and IATs suffer accordingly, methanol injection is of particular value on a turbocharged car, even at part throttle.

Is it worth a few bucks more to use a tightly integrated, near plug-and-play, solution which is Aquamist reliable? HELL yes. If I own the car for five years, it costs me less than $100 per year for the enhancement, and probably saves me more than that in fuel and methanol costs.

Would I buy ANYTHING from a guy who is either totally ignorant, or wildly dishonest to save that money? Personally... FUCK NO.

[themyst]

Originally Posted by Former_Boosted_IS

You really do not know what that DME will do when the failsafe kicks with this solution. This is the exact reason I abandoned that style was abandoned early. If you look at my original Snow Performance post, you will see I did order the bypass solenoid. I had real concerns and I wasn't willing to take that risk. You are also reactively trying to fix a problem rather than proactively adjusting to methanol.

I haven't had a methanol related failure ever since I finally dumped the labonte flow sensor for a SnowPerformance unit which was 7 months ago. The whole point of the boost bypass solenoid is for it to cut boost altogether when there IS a methanol failure. If flash tunes retain the stock logic, the dme will throw an underboost code relatively quickly before any knock retard occurs. The good news is, you can reflash to stock mapping relatively quickly while the meth failure is diagnosed. Like I said it's to save you IF there's a failure, not for use as training wheels which should happen infrequently if ever.

[themyst]

Originally Posted by Skydive

Gentlemen,

I don't think anyone is implying that Vishnu's PWM implementation under-performs its less expensive counterpart. Short of Clap, who has said many, often contradictory things which lead me to believe that he is mostly driven by his need to be perceived as "right" in the community, rather than actually doing his homework and making the best choices, not even the direct competitor is suggesting that the Vishnu kit isn't good, but rather the issue is mostly that the Vishnu kit is more expensive than pressure modulated systems, and Aquamist's general use PWM kits.

Since the BMS folks have correctly stated that the Vishnu kit requires a Vishnu tune, and their yet-to-be-announced alternative will require a BMS tune, the debate is really quite a bit more narrow than this thread would suggest.

It makes sense for folks who are inclined toward methanol injection to choose the kit that goes with the tune they've already chosen unless they are already unhappy with the tune they've chosen and inclined to change over to the other, but that's about more than just the methanol injection issue.

If you've got an existing legacy methanol kit one one of those tunes, you will have to wait and see if the performance and safety deltas associated with the newer implementations is worth the price of the upgrade.

If you don't have either the Vishnu tune or the BMS tune, you get to choose either one, and the corresponding methanol kit or perhaps neither one, plus a methanol implementation which is not integrated with the tuning directly. This category is the "big" issue.

As someone who has done a fair bit of work on other platforms of various types, including various methanol injection implementations, tight integration is of significant value to me. I have moved past the point in my life where peak horsepower is important to me, particularly in a car that I drive every day in Los Angeles where summers are long and hot, and gasoline is shitty and expensive. Instead, I am concerned about long term welfare of an expensive, sophisticated engine in that car. Given that ambient temperatures here frequently reach 100+ degrees and IATs suffer accordingly, methanol injection is of particular value on a turbocharged car, even at part throttle.

Is it worth a few bucks more to use a tightly integrated, near plug-and-play, solution which is Aquamist reliable? HELL yes. If I own the car for five years, it costs me less than $100 per year for the enhancement, and probably saves me more than that in fuel and methanol costs.

Would I buy ANYTHING from a guy who is either totally ignorant, or wildly dishonest to save that money? Personally... FUCK NO.

I'm sure it's a fantastic kit, but so are many of the conventional offerings. My problem is the fact Vishnu avoids requests for PWM Vs. PPS logs and the mere fact this kit is married strictly to the Procede. Those two facts alone should raise some red flags.

[Focus]

Originally Posted by themyst

I'm sure it's a fantastic kit, but so are many of the conventional offerings. My problem is the fact Vishnu avoids requests for PWM Vs. PPS logs and the mere fact this kit is married strictly to the Procede. Those two facts alone should raise some red flags.

Personally, i dont think a big arguement should be the marriage of the product to the tune. Most people aren't switching between tunes monthly. I've had the same tune for 6 months now, so i dont feel that is too much of a problem.

The problem ..is the logs.

[dzenno]

Originally Posted by Former_Boosted_IS

You really do not know what that DME will do when the failsafe kicks with this solution. This is the exact reason I abandoned that style was abandoned early. If you look at my original Snow Performance post, you will see I did order the bypass solenoid. I had real concerns and I wasn't willing to take that risk. You are also reactively trying to fix a problem rather than proactively adjusting to methanol.

Former, there is no risk here...what does the DME do when/if you charge pipe blows off? I've had this happen on my car at very high boost and guess what, no issues whatsoever...its the same...car goes into limp instantly

There's absolutely nothing wrong with wiring in a boost bypass solenoid into a failsafe and have it dump boost in the case of meth flow failure...If you really want to know the details you can always just try it..

[htt760]

Originally Posted by Focus

Personally, i dont think a big arguement should be the marriage of the product to the tune. Most people aren't switching between tunes monthly. I've had the same tune for 6 months now, so i dont feel that is too much of a problem.

The problem ..is the logs.

I am not defending for Shiv but I believe after reading the many many threads regarding this issue, even if Shiv where to provide the Logs for the PPS system, there will be someone out there that will not agree and will still think that their meth kit works with the same principles, which is true but with the added safety net of integrating the fail safes is the key features why I would pay for the PWM kit.

SKydive nailed it with the last post.

[RambleJ]

Originally Posted by Skydive

Gentlemen,

I don't think anyone is implying that Vishnu's PWM implementation under-performs its less expensive counterpart. Short of Clap, who has said many, often contradictory things which lead me to believe that he is mostly driven by his need to be perceived as "right" in the community, rather than actually doing his homework and making the best choices, not even the direct competitor is suggesting that the Vishnu kit isn't good, but rather the issue is mostly that the Vishnu kit is more expensive than pressure modulated systems, and Aquamist's general use PWM kits.

Since the BMS folks have correctly stated that the Vishnu kit requires a Vishnu tune, and their yet-to-be-announced alternative will require a BMS tune, the debate is really quite a bit more narrow than this thread would suggest.

It makes sense for folks who are inclined toward methanol injection to choose the kit that goes with the tune they've already chosen unless they are already unhappy with the tune they've chosen and inclined to change over to the other, but that's about more than just the methanol injection issue.

If you've got an existing legacy methanol kit one one of those tunes, you will have to wait and see if the performance and safety deltas associated with the newer implementations is worth the price of the upgrade.

If you don't have either the Vishnu tune or the BMS tune, you get to choose either one, and the corresponding methanol kit or perhaps neither one, plus a methanol implementation which is not integrated with the tuning directly. This category is the "big" issue.

As someone who has done a fair bit of work on other platforms of various types, including various methanol injection implementations, tight integration is of significant value to me. I have moved past the point in my life where peak horsepower is important to me, particularly in a car that I drive every day in Los Angeles where summers are long and hot, and gasoline is shitty and expensive. Instead, I am concerned about long term welfare of an expensive, sophisticated engine in that car. Given that ambient temperatures here frequently reach 100+ degrees and IATs suffer accordingly, methanol injection is of particular value on a turbocharged car, even at part throttle.

Is it worth a few bucks more to use a tightly integrated, near plug-and-play, solution which is Aquamist reliable? HELL yes. If I own the car for five years, it costs me less than $100 per year for the enhancement, and probably saves me more than that in fuel and methanol costs.

Would I buy ANYTHING from a guy who is either totally ignorant, or wildly dishonest to save that money? Personally... FUCK NO.

I don't think this is the point of the thread. And yet you keep bringing it up. Mike is not BMS, mike is a vendor who sells BMS products.

Okay back on topic. Logs..... come out come out wherever you are....

[dzenno]

This thread is pathetic and should be CLOSED! seriously, what's everyone trying to prove to everyone else here lol

[RambleJ]

Originally Posted by htt760

I am not defending for Shiv but I believe after reading the many many threads regarding this issue, even if Shiv where to provide the Logs for the PPS system, there will be someone out there that will not agree and will still think that their meth kit works with the same principles, which is true but with the added safety net of integrating the fail safes is the key features why I would pay for the PWM kit.

SKydive nailed it with the last post.

Thats great that you have blind faith in words alone. Some people like to see actual/factual data. People are different.

[themyst]

Originally Posted by Focus

Personally, i dont think a big arguement should be the marriage of the product to the tune. Most people aren't switching between tunes monthly. I've had the same tune for 6 months now, so i dont feel that is too much of a problem.

The problem ..is the logs.

I have no comment except marriage of anything to the tune is a HUGE no-no for what's coming.

[RambleJ]

Originally Posted by dzenno

This thread is pathetic and should be CLOSED! seriously, what's everyone trying to prove to everyone else here lol

Why should it be closed? We shouldn't be able to ask to see proof of how a new system is better than another?

[Skydive]

Originally Posted by Calvin@Vishnu

This week, we have two retrofit kits to install. Which means that they are coming in with PPS kits and leaving with PWM kits. Shiv has already talked with one of the owners in temporarily rigging it up so that both kits are installed in parallel and are switchable without much hassle. Perhaps those results will make some people happy. Or perhaps they will insist that they are rigged/unfair. At the end of the day, we have better things to do than try to convince people that the world isn't flat

Are you guys *that* impatient?

Calvin's post suggests that the logs we're waiting for are forthcoming, pending the opportunity to create them in the a like-for-like scenario. (...presumably because if the test were done any other way, it's a given that many of you would refuse to accept the results.)

It's Friday. If the work described above is done "this week" we should have some very nice logs next week, right? Or do you *really* expect that the folks at Vishnu ought to set aside real work and produce those logs for you all "on demand"? (I don't know where you all live, but where I came from, that's unreasonable.)

Given that the new kits aren't shipping to the general public yet, what the fuck are you all so impatient about?

[RambleJ]

Originally Posted by Skydive

Are you guys *that* impatient?

Calvin's post suggests that the logs we're waiting for are forthcoming, pending the opportunity to create them in the a like-for-like scenario. (...presumably because if the test were done any other way, it's a given that many of you would refuse to accept the results.)

It's Friday. If the work described above is done "this week" we should have some very nice logs next week, right? Or do you *really* expect that the folks at Vishnu ought to set aside real work and produce those logs for you all "on demand"? (I don't know where you all live, but where I came from, that's unreasonable.)

Given that the new kits aren't shipping to the general public yet, what the fuck are you all so impatient about?

Wow! Does someone piss in your cheerios every morning or what? You have got to be the grumpiest poster on here! If you don't like this thread, you don't have to read it.

[Skydive]

Originally Posted by RambleJ

I don't think this is the point of the thread. And yet you keep bringing it up. Mike is not BMS, mike is a vendor who sells BMS products.

Oh but it's quite the topic. If the guy is trying to confuse the community for the sake of his own sales, I think it's spot-on-topic to point out the reality of it. I have considerable tuning background, sufficient technical acumen, and no shortage of car forum experience to lead me to conclude that there's a thinly veiled attempt to deceive. I don't like it, and I don't think it's fair to the community who might be taken in by it. Forums like this one are collections of opinions. This is mine. You post yours regularly too. You have the opportunity to discount mine if you like.

...and there are apparently plenty of folks who believe that this Mike character frequently "channels" BMS and its founder more often than not.

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by RambleJ

Wow! Does someone piss in your cheerios every morning or what? You have got to be the grumpiest poster on here! If you don't like this thread, you don't have to read it.

Who is grumpy? Those crying foul for not getting exactly what they want, exactly when they want it. Or someone who is pointing out that it's coming as soon as it's logistically possible?

There really does seem to be a pretty big deviation among folks on this thread when it comes to expectations and reality.

[Skydive]

Originally Posted by RambleJ

Wow! Does someone piss in your cheerios every morning or what? You have got to be the grumpiest poster on here! If you don't like this thread, you don't have to read it.

...well that's certainly productive.

[RambleJ]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

Who is grumpy? Those crying foul for not getting exactly what they want, exactly when they want it. Or someone who is pointing out that it's coming as soon as it's logistically possible?

There really does seem to be a pretty big deviation among folks on this thread when it comes to expectations and reality.

I think you need to take a step back, I am not clap.. I am not crying foul. I would like to see documented proof as to why and how this system is better than a standard system which you sold for quite some time. Your old system seem to work fine on your car for well over a year and helped set your "stock turbo world record" which by the way has been broken already, so you might want to update your sig.
So again, data proof as to why this system is better than the standard meth kits, aside from it being married to a procede.

[EastBayE90]

This is like a bunch of annoying kids in the back seat on a long drive, saying are we there yet!!! are we there yet!!!

Everyone needs to relax on this topic. Shiv will give you your "precious" logs soon enough Gollum.


To most of you with nothing better to do this seems like a easy task. If any of you have seen what I have seen going on over at Vishnu then you would understand they have MUCH BETTER THINGS TO WORK ON. Give it a rest.

[RambleJ]

Originally Posted by (-(ellblazer420

This is like a bunch of annoying kids in the back seat on a long drive, saying are we there yet!!! are we there yet!!!

Everyone needs to relax on this topic. Shiv will give you your "precious" logs soon enough Gollum.


To most of you with nothing better to do this seems like a easy task. If any of you have seen what I have seen going on over at Vishnu then you would understand they have MUCH BETTER THINGS TO WORK ON. Give it a rest.

.
Yes logs would be cool. We should see them next week if I read Calvins post correctly