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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > BMW E90/E92/E93 3-series General Forums > Regional Forums > UK > UK Technical Forum > MY N53 (NOX, Injectors, rough run, sooty exhaust) Is running badly how do I diagnose



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      10-11-2019, 01:37 AM   #67
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The Denox system exists because of a large spike in emissions of NOx at the transition between homogenous and stratified charge modes. In order to control these emissions the Denox catalyst was fitted and the effectiveness of the system is monitored by the NOx sensor.

The engine doesn't need any of the denox system to run lean or stratified but crucially the ECU on standard software DOES need the information reported from the Nox sensor. Moreover it needs to see the correct info from the Nox sensor or it will assume the Denox system is faulty, cannot effectively remove oxides of nitrogen and therefore disable all but traditional homogenous mode.
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      10-11-2019, 03:29 AM   #68
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Interesting stuff Andy

Must admit whilst I had been dead set on noxem for my f10 after reading of some of the issues I'm thinking of stumping up the extra £100 and getting the bmw part. 2 year warranty at least.
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      10-11-2019, 07:36 AM   #69
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I've no direct experience of NOXEM but have read the bimmerprofs website in depth. There is no disputing the breadth and depth of their knowledge. I think the NOXEM comes into its own once the Denox catalyst is too old to work effectively. Until then, the genuine sensor will at least keep the system working how BMW intended it and reduce the Nox properly.
My girlfriend's car has an N43B20A engine and over 150000 miles and somehow still runs stratified on the original denox catalyst.
That'll be getting noxem when the cat finally gives up.
I'm pretty sure it doesn't have NOXEM currently, because it had errors relating to denox catalyst polluted when we got it.
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      10-11-2019, 07:42 AM   #70
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Yeah my car only has 66k on it. I guess I could stand it the £420 for a genuine one. Yikes.
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      10-11-2019, 07:43 AM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dormermike View Post
Interesting stuff Andy

Must admit whilst I had been dead set on noxem for my f10 after reading of some of the issues I'm thinking of stumping up the extra £100 and getting the bmw part. 2 year warranty at least.
That's exactly the dilemma I'm stuck in! First I was set on map-out then was about to order NOXEM until I read about their quality issues and so on!

Based on what Will says map-out seems to be the best option with all 3 stages running and no ecu/sensor to ever go wrong!
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      10-11-2019, 08:40 AM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schriss View Post
Q3: What are the main differences between NOXEM emulator and ‘’usual’’ emulators?

A3: NOXEM des not ‘’cheats’’ all signals necessary for measurements. NOXEM measures all possible parameters in real time. Also NOXEM does not use ‘’record/playback’’ principle, but generates output parameters based on deep understanding and mathematical model of NOx system. This manner guarantees best possible performance over all conditions.

https://bimmerprofs.com/faq/
Well..I guess they are cheating themselves...I commented on it a in the post below https://www.e90post.com/forums/showt...8#post25317828
The worst thing however is the questionable quality of noxem (I know at least another 2 other people here in Czech who had to return it as well) and even worse customer claim management. I wonder how they can claim lifetime warranty on noxem electronics...this is wild East...
Attached picture shows how it looks inside...when connection broke...
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      10-11-2019, 05:54 PM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jirka330i View Post
Well..I guess they are cheating themselves...I commented on it a in the post below https://www.e90post.com/forums/showt...8#post25317828
The worst thing however is the questionable quality of noxem (I know at least another 2 other people here in Czech who had to return it as well) and even worse customer claim management. I wonder how they can claim lifetime warranty on noxem electronics...this is wild East...
Attached picture shows how it looks inside...when connection broke...
First time I hear about their quality issues. Anyway, what's that pink wire for? Is that a fix for some issue?
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      10-12-2019, 12:30 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by schriss View Post
First time I hear about their quality issues. Anyway, what's that pink wire for? Is that a fix for some issue?
well...the quality issue might be recent...or a subject to some specific production lot

however...compared to a general build quality of original bmw nox..which can be called "industrial"...it is 2nd league in my opinion

as for the pink wire...this fixes the issue which I had and is described here https://www.e90post.com/forums/showt...8#post25317828

Last edited by jirka330i; 10-12-2019 at 02:09 AM..
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      10-12-2019, 02:08 AM   #75
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Originally Posted by leew88 View Post
It all depends if the "map-out" retains the stratified running mode, but I don't see how that's going to work because the DME needs it's algorithms to determine when and when not to run stratified and switch between homogeneous mode (depending on conditions). If it's mapped out then effectively you have no data from the NOX sensor so the DME will resort to emergency homogeneous mode.

There is also a reason as to why there is a separate ECU attached to the NOX sensor for all these extra processing. I would like to see a vehicle with a NOX mapped-out with INPA showing the running mode - you are able to get it into stratified by pressing the throttle lightly above 1.5k rpm to see the switch happening.
This is exactly a question I am trying to get answered by tuners...how do they reset/remap msd80 when they delete/ map out nox sensor

as far as I am aware the nox system consists of 2 major parts:

nox sensor (which reports to the msd80 through canbus in a binary code something which could sound "hallo...here is nox sensor, all my electrical connections are OK, heating of sensor head works, actual temperature in exhaust is XY Celsius and actual nox concentration is 5ppm..." and if this report is accepted by msd80 it allows all 3modes...)

nox catalyst (which is managed by msd80 on the basis of an algorithm which calculates catalyst cloging...which you can also see in inpa or ista... on the basis of either kms driven or fuel consumption...and then decides when to start regeneration if all the necessary conditions are in place...incl at least half of the tank and speed at least 110kmh);

the trap here is the fact that even with nox sensor delete and even with catalyst physically removed you still have the msd80 calculating the clogging and when it reaches a critical value (not sure if it is 3000mg or more...) it reports 30e9 error and stops stratified; one thing which I tested was an encoding of "virtually new" nox catalyst in ista...which than leads msd80 to reset clogging value...but it is always only part time solution....so I wonder how the tuners stop msd80 calculating catalyst clogging without an impact on all other linked processes and algorithms...
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      10-12-2019, 02:31 AM   #76
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They probably write it out completely. Do all markets where N43/53 is sold get a denox cat?
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      10-12-2019, 04:16 AM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jirka330i View Post
you still have the msd80 calculating the clogging and when it reaches a critical value (not sure if it is 3000mg or more...)
They might be doing the simplest thing: change 3000 to 9999999999999999999.
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      10-12-2019, 06:06 AM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jirka330i View Post
it reports 30e9 error and stops stratified; one thing which I tested was an encoding of "virtually new" nox catalyst in ista...which than leads msd80 to reset clogging value...
I did this few days ago too. It might be "temporary" but not bad, I mean temporary as in as long as the new one actually lasts, so 100k? and then code new cat again. Small thing to do..
I think ECU has no means to know the state of cat unless there are sensors after the cat.
I think it is all approximation and calculation. ECU knows how many regen cycles that cat can handle or roughly how many miles it can last or how much nox ppm it can take. That's why is says "aging" not "aged/clogged/needs_replace".
So encoding nox cat replace is probably identical result as actually putting a new one in AND encoding. Difference will be only in emissions.
Again, the above is what I assume/think.
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      10-12-2019, 07:16 AM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schriss View Post
I did this few days ago too. It might be "temporary" but not bad, I mean temporary as in as long as the new one actually lasts, so 100k? and then code new cat again. Small thing to do..
I think ECU has no means to know the state of cat unless there are sensors after the cat.
I think it is all approximation and calculation. ECU knows how many regen cycles that cat can handle or roughly how many miles it can last or how much nox ppm it can take. That's why is says "aging" not "aged/clogged/needs_replace".
So encoding nox cat replace is probably identical result as actually putting a new one in AND encoding. Difference will be only in emissions.
Again, the above is what I assume/think.
I would have very similar view on this...but do not forget that German engineers have a capability to make things and processes extremely complicated :-)...as far as I know the msd80 full documentation has almost 9000pages!!!

I think you are right that ecu does not know the actual state of nox cat...as it is based on calculation....BUT...if original nox sensor is still in place with old and clogged nox cat then the actual values of nox concentration (ppm) before cat can be very high ( I saw 300-400ppm at an older car during the drive checked with inpa...major issue was that the owner missed a cat regenaration couple of times as the conditions were not met...)...maybe because clogged cat increases the exhaust gas pressure before cat???...and then ecu starts to report aging cat issue. The same car with noxem installed would not have the problem I guess...because there is just a Bosch lambda sensor delivering a signal which is then twisted by the unit into much lower nox concentration range...5-15-25ppm etc

If the tuners would confirm that what they do is nox sensor delete and nox cat related settings adjustments in ecu I would hapilly go for decat...hoping that all 3 modes of n53 will work
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      10-12-2019, 07:23 AM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schriss View Post
They might be doing the simplest thing: change 3000 to 9999999999999999999.
I guess the simplest thing would be to block a nox sensor hole in the exhaust by one M20x1,5 screw and connect specially adjusted (to a can bus protocol standard) mp3 player to send a special binary nox song to the msd80 :-)
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      10-12-2019, 11:44 AM   #81
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If nox cat is re-coded replaced but sensor sends 200-400ppm, then yea relatively soon "Aging" code will be back. But if someone gets new OEM sensor AND does nox cat replace via ISTA, then I think it will be fine for another 100k.
The nox buildup in cat is tiny, its like microns thick layer. Definitely not "clogging" to cause back pressure, but enough so that cat does not work as expected anymore as the surface is "dirty".

There are other NOX emulators, after I bought NOXEM I noticed nox emulator on ebay I think it was 150 pounds or so, but I didn't look at it.

Also, what is this 138 pounds?? https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/FOR-BMW-N...3/202798473696
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      10-12-2019, 01:12 PM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schriss View Post
If nox cat is re-coded replaced but sensor sends 200-400ppm, then yea relatively soon "Aging" code will be back. But if someone gets new OEM sensor AND does nox cat replace via ISTA, then I think it will be fine for another 100k.
The nox buildup in cat is tiny, its like microns thick layer. Definitely not "clogging" to cause back pressure, but enough so that cat does not work as expected anymore as the surface is "dirty".

There are other NOX emulators, after I bought NOXEM I noticed nox emulator on ebay I think it was 150 pounds or so, but I didn't look at it.

Also, what is this 138 pounds?? https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/FOR-BMW-N...3/202798473696
not sure...even new oem sensor measures real nox concentration and that I thing has quite dynamic range anywhere between 5-500ppm; the old oem sensor mostly dies because of the nox sensor head (ngk monopoly production) sends no signal ( in inpa this is represented by 0ppm) to the box; the sensor in the link is chinese clone of oem and I doubt it works at all considering the complexity of the issue...I am afraid it would be 138 pounds lost in very short term...if noxem was reliable and reasonably priced it would be a solution...if it had good after sales servis...the remaining solution which I am prefering now is nox delete and decat ...
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      10-12-2019, 02:44 PM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andystobbs View Post
The Denox system exists because of a large spike in emissions of NOx at the transition between homogenous and stratified charge modes. In order to control these emissions the Denox catalyst was fitted and the effectiveness of the system is monitored by the NOx sensor.

The engine doesn't need any of the denox system to run lean or stratified but crucially the ECU on standard software DOES need the information reported from the Nox sensor. Moreover it needs to see the correct info from the Nox sensor or it will assume the Denox system is faulty, cannot effectively remove oxides of nitrogen and therefore disable all but traditional homogenous mode.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jirka330i View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by schriss View Post
They might be doing the simplest thing: change 3000 to 9999999999999999999.
I guess the simplest thing would be to block a nox sensor hole in the exhaust by one M20x1,5 screw and connect specially adjusted (to a can bus protocol standard) mp3 player to send a special binary nox song to the msd80 :-)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andystobbs View Post
The Denox system exists because of a large spike in emissions of NOx at the transition between homogenous and stratified charge modes. In order to control these emissions the Denox catalyst was fitted and the effectiveness of the system is monitored by the NOx sensor.

The engine doesn't need any of the denox system to run lean or stratified but crucially the ECU on standard software DOES need the information reported from the Nox sensor. Moreover it needs to see the correct info from the Nox sensor or it will assume the Denox system is faulty, cannot effectively remove oxides of nitrogen and therefore disable all but traditional homogenous mode.

Yup if it doesn't have a NOX delete coded, as I have had this setup running for the last 2 years!

I'm running nox delete and my car runs all 3 modes.
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      10-12-2019, 02:47 PM   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schriss View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by jirka330i View Post
it reports 30e9 error and stops stratified; one thing which I tested was an encoding of "virtually new" nox catalyst in ista...which than leads msd80 to reset clogging value...
I did this few days ago too. It might be "temporary" but not bad, I mean temporary as in as long as the new one actually lasts, so 100k? and then code new cat again. Small thing to do..
I think ECU has no means to know the state of cat unless there are sensors after the cat.
I think it is all approximation and calculation. ECU knows how many regen cycles that cat can handle or roughly how many miles it can last or how much nox ppm it can take. That's why is says "aging" not "aged/clogged/needs_replace".
So encoding nox cat replace is probably identical result as actually putting a new one in AND encoding. Difference will be only in emissions.
Again, the above is what I assume/think.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jirka330i View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by schriss View Post
They might be doing the simplest thing: change 3000 to 9999999999999999999.
I guess the simplest thing would be to block a nox sensor hole in the exhaust by one M20x1,5 screw and connect specially adjusted (to a can bus protocol standard) mp3 player to send a special binary nox song to the msd80 :-)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andystobbs View Post
The Denox system exists because of a large spike in emissions of NOx at the transition between homogenous and stratified charge modes. In order to control these emissions the Denox catalyst was fitted and the effectiveness of the system is monitored by the NOx sensor.

The engine doesn't need any of the denox system to run lean or stratified but crucially the ECU on standard software DOES need the information reported from the Nox sensor. Moreover it needs to see the correct info from the Nox sensor or it will assume the Denox system is faulty, cannot effectively remove oxides of nitrogen and therefore disable all but traditional homogenous mode.
Quote:
Originally Posted by schriss View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by jirka330i View Post
it reports 30e9 error and stops stratified; one thing which I tested was an encoding of "virtually new" nox catalyst in ista...which than leads msd80 to reset clogging value...
I did this few days ago too. It might be "temporary" but not bad, I mean temporary as in as long as the new one actually lasts, so 100k? and then code new cat again. Small thing to do..
I think ECU has no means to know the state of cat unless there are sensors after the cat.
I think it is all approximation and calculation. ECU knows how many regen cycles that cat can handle or roughly how many miles it can last or how much nox ppm it can take. That's why is says "aging" not "aged/clogged/needs_replace".
So encoding nox cat replace is probably identical result as actually putting a new one in AND encoding. Difference will be only in emissions.
Again, the above is what I assume/think.

The nox sensor is after the nox cat, so the assumption is not accurate I'm afraid
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      10-12-2019, 02:51 PM   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jirka330i View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by schriss View Post
If nox cat is re-coded replaced but sensor sends 200-400ppm, then yea relatively soon "Aging" code will be back. But if someone gets new OEM sensor AND does nox cat replace via ISTA, then I think it will be fine for another 100k.
The nox buildup in cat is tiny, its like microns thick layer. Definitely not "clogging" to cause back pressure, but enough so that cat does not work as expected anymore as the surface is "dirty".

There are other NOX emulators, after I bought NOXEM I noticed nox emulator on ebay I think it was 150 pounds or so, but I didn't look at it.

Also, what is this 138 pounds?? https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/FOR-BMW-N...3/202798473696
not sure...even new oem sensor measures real nox concentration and that I thing has quite dynamic range anywhere between 5-500ppm; the old oem sensor mostly dies because of the nox sensor head (ngk monopoly production) sends no signal ( in inpa this is represented by 0ppm) to the box; the sensor in the link is chinese clone of oem and I doubt it works at all considering the complexity of the issue...I am afraid it would be 138 pounds lost in very short term...if noxem was reliable and reasonably priced it would be a solution...if it had good after sales servis...the remaining solution which I am prefering now is nox delete and decat ...
Quote:
Originally Posted by jirka330i View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by schriss View Post
They might be doing the simplest thing: change 3000 to 9999999999999999999.
I guess the simplest thing would be to block a nox sensor hole in the exhaust by one M20x1,5 screw and connect specially adjusted (to a can bus protocol standard) mp3 player to send a special binary nox song to the msd80 :-)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andystobbs View Post
The Denox system exists because of a large spike in emissions of NOx at the transition between homogenous and stratified charge modes. In order to control these emissions the Denox catalyst was fitted and the effectiveness of the system is monitored by the NOx sensor.

The engine doesn't need any of the denox system to run lean or stratified but crucially the ECU on standard software DOES need the information reported from the Nox sensor. Moreover it needs to see the correct info from the Nox sensor or it will assume the Denox system is faulty, cannot effectively remove oxides of nitrogen and therefore disable all but traditional homogenous mode.
Quote:
Originally Posted by schriss View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by jirka330i View Post
it reports 30e9 error and stops stratified; one thing which I tested was an encoding of "virtually new" nox catalyst in ista...which than leads msd80 to reset clogging value...
I did this few days ago too. It might be "temporary" but not bad, I mean temporary as in as long as the new one actually lasts, so 100k? and then code new cat again. Small thing to do..
I think ECU has no means to know the state of cat unless there are sensors after the cat.
I think it is all approximation and calculation. ECU knows how many regen cycles that cat can handle or roughly how many miles it can last or how much nox ppm it can take. That's why is says "aging" not "aged/clogged/needs_replace".
So encoding nox cat replace is probably identical result as actually putting a new one in AND encoding. Difference will be only in emissions.
Again, the above is what I assume/think.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jirka330i View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by schriss View Post
If nox cat is re-coded replaced but sensor sends 200-400ppm, then yea relatively soon "Aging" code will be back. But if someone gets new OEM sensor AND does nox cat replace via ISTA, then I think it will be fine for another 100k.
The nox buildup in cat is tiny, its like microns thick layer. Definitely not "clogging" to cause back pressure, but enough so that cat does not work as expected anymore as the surface is "dirty".

There are other NOX emulators, after I bought NOXEM I noticed nox emulator on ebay I think it was 150 pounds or so, but I didn't look at it.

Also, what is this 138 pounds?? https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/FOR-BMW-N...3/202798473696
not sure...even new oem sensor measures real nox concentration and that I thing has quite dynamic range anywhere between 5-500ppm; the old oem sensor mostly dies because of the nox sensor head (ngk monopoly production) sends no signal ( in inpa this is represented by 0ppm) to the box; the sensor in the link is chinese clone of oem and I doubt it works at all considering the complexity of the issue...I am afraid it would be 138 pounds lost in very short term...if noxem was reliable and reasonably priced it would be a solution...if it had good after sales servis...the remaining solution which I am prefering now is nox delete and decat ...

There is company in Germany that will supply a new nox sensor that connect to the existing electronics I had considered this method as it was allot a cheaper than a new one sensor at around £170..

Unfortunately there appears to be a glut china clone parts on eBay which are highly suspect!! So please be aware!!
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      10-12-2019, 03:27 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by Will_460cs View Post
There is company in Germany that will supply a new nox sensor that connect to the existing electronics I had considered this method as it was allot a cheaper than a new one sensor at around £170..

Unfortunately there appears to be a glut china clone parts on eBay which are highly suspect!! So please be aware!!
This is probably the cheapest original thing to buy if someone needs a new sensor? https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Original-...3/392268072699
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      10-12-2019, 03:56 PM   #87
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This is probably the cheapest original thing to buy if someone needs a new sensor? https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Original-...3/392268072699
yep..I saw couple of oem nox sensors at about this price....just make sure it is originally packed and ideally Version (generation) 05...it is said to last much longer
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      10-12-2019, 05:15 PM   #88
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Anyone else recognise someones writing as very similar to the bimmerprofs replies or is it just me
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