[Fritzer]

I was driving to get my morning coffee this morning and about a mile from home on my way back the engine shut off. I was going about 40 miles an hour, took a second to realize what was going on and I could feel the gearbox manually shifting itself down. Luckily I had enough momentum to turn off the road onto a side road for the neighborhood. Once stopped, I put the car in park, key out and back in, held start button and it just kept cranking. No Check Engine Light but I did get the car on the lift Service Light. Phone died so I took my bagel and coffee and walked the rest of the way home. Charged phone, got AAA on the way, and drove back in another car to wait for the tow truck.

Got back to the car, tried cranking again and it turned on. Let it idle for about 5 minutes, gave it some revs, nothing unusual and no car on lift Service Light. Still had it towed to a local shop, although I'm in a new area so went with one I've seen right in town that seems decent. Going to have the codes read($179 diag fee, I really need to buy a bimmergeeks tool....). From what I've researched and figured so far in relation to the symptoms I've gotten, I think it's either the Fuel Pump Control Module going bad(most likely, I reckon) or the Fuel Pump itself going bad. Been dreading any fueling issues because that seems like the one area I would rather not DIY/have no experience in.

Anyone have any input? I will report back as soon as the mechanic calls me with the codes and anything else they found in the diagnosis.

[Fritzer]

I found some threads talking about issues with the tank reading improperly, when actually out of gas. I guess I have two additional questions because I've never actually ran out of gas with this car; 1) If the car ran out of gas, would it show the car on lift Service Light? 2) I was able to start it back up and drive it onto the tow truck, and off the tow truck into a parking spot at the shop, with zero noticeable issues.

If the car ran out of gas to the point of the engine stalling out, surely it would not have a minute amount of fuel to be able to start up and driven shortly, right?

[Fritzer]

ctuna I've seen you talk about this issue in regards to the N51 in multiple threads. Your insight would be valuable if you could chime in. Hopefully will get the codes back from the indy tomorrow.

(Just for reference, I do know all about the SULEV warranty and am no longer covered.)

[Fritzer]

Update: Shop just called me back, the only stored code they could find was drain/fill transmission fluid. They test drove it for 30m+ and could not replicate the issue. On the bright side they aren't even going to charge me diag fee....

Any input? E90Post even alive still haha? Thanks guys.

-Fritz

[gbalthrop]

Originally Posted by Fritzer

... about a mile from home on my way back the engine shut off. I was going about 40 miles an hour... Once stopped, I put the car in park, key out and back in, held start button and it just kept cranking. No Check Engine Light but I did get the car on the lift Service Light... Got back to the car, tried cranking again and it turned on. Let it idle for about 5 minutes, gave it some revs, nothing unusual and no car on lift Service Light. Still had it towed to a local shop...

Originally Posted by Fritzer

Update: Shop just called me back, the only stored code they could find was drain/fill transmission fluid. They test drove it for 30m+ and could not replicate the issue...-Fritz

Was waiting until you had a fault code with FF Data before trying to GUESS.
What Diagnostic Software or Scan Tool did they use to Read Fault Codes? Are you saying the ONLY Code in ANY of the modules was "578E" EGS Oil Wear?

If you had "Car on Lift" warning light on the Instrument Cluster, there SHOULD have been a "Check Control" CC-ID Code saved in the Instrument Cluster. Look for a "!" in Yellow triangle to right of Gear Indicator on Lower Instrument Cluster. Use "Check Control" Procedure as provided in your Owner's Manual, to see WHAT the issue was. My bet is a Fuel Supply Issue, which MAY recur.
George

[Fritzer]

Originally Posted by gbalthrop

Was waiting until you had a fault code with FF Data before trying to GUESS.
What Diagnostic Software or Scan Tool did they use to Read Fault Codes? Are you saying the ONLY Code in ANY of the modules was "578E" EGS Oil Wear?

If you had "Car on Lift" warning light on the Instrument Cluster, there SHOULD have been a "Check Control" CC-ID Code saved in the Instrument Cluster. Look for a "!" in Yellow triangle to right of Gear Indicator on Lower Instrument Cluster. Use "Check Control" Procedure as provided in your Owner's Manual, to see WHAT the issue was. My bet is a Fuel Supply Issue, which MAY recur.
George

No check control. I called the shop back that I took it to and requested to speak to the tech, asked him to check if there were any codes stored in the EKP Module for high voltage etc, said they don't have that capability. :shrug: Spoke with a buddy who runs a BMW shop back in San Diego and he concurred that it's likely the fuel pump, or fuel pump + module going out.

Still sort of perplexed that they couldn't get it to replicate in about an hour of test driving. Going to drive the car home tomorrow and order the bimmergeeks cable tonight.

I will update as I find out more information for future references.

[Fritzer]

Originally Posted by gbalthrop

If you had "Car on Lift" warning light on the Instrument Cluster, there SHOULD have been a "Check Control" CC-ID Code saved in the Instrument Cluster.

It went away after I turned the ignition off when the car initially stalled.

[gbalthrop]

Originally Posted by Fritzer

... I called the shop back that I took it to and requested to speak to the tech, asked him to check if there were any codes stored in the EKP Module for high voltage etc, said they don't have that capability. :shrug: ... Going to drive the car home tomorrow and order the bimmergeeks cable tonight...

Best way to Diagnose an E9x is with INPA or ISTA. If you don't have a shop equipped with either, and/or do NOT want to pay several hundred dollars each time you need diagnosis that you can do yourself in LESS time than required to take the car in and pick it up, then it's a "No-Brainer" to get the free download, and the BimmerGeeks K+DCAN "Pro" Cable for $45. That assumes they can get that cable back in stock (been "Out of Stock" for a Month or more).

You might check around and see if your local Advance Auto or AutoZone can read EKP Fault Codes, or Fault Codes in ALL nearly 20 modules in your vehicle. If the engine quit and the "Car on Lift" warning light came on, then there almost HAS to be a fault code WITH FREEZE FRAME DATA in the EKP Fuel Pump Module Fault Memory, if there was NONE in the DME Fault Memory.

Please let us know what you find,
George

[Fritzer]

Originally Posted by gbalthrop

Best way to Diagnose an E9x is with INPA or ISTA. If you don't have a shop equipped with either, and/or do NOT want to pay several hundred dollars each time you need diagnosis that you can do yourself in LESS time than required to take the car in and pick it up, then it's a "No-Brainer" to get the free download, and the BimmerGeeks K+DCAN "Pro" Cable for $45. That assumes they can get that cable back in stock (been "Out of Stock" for a Month or more).

You might check around and see if your local Advance Auto or AutoZone can read EKP Fault Codes, or Fault Codes in ALL nearly 20 modules in your vehicle. If the engine quit and the "Car on Lift" warning light came on, then there almost HAS to be a fault code WITH FREEZE FRAME DATA in the EKP Fuel Pump Module Fault Memory, if there was NONE in the DME Fault Memory.

Please let us know what you find,
George

Will do, anything I should look for in particular in terms of faults before I go through with that and report back? High voltage faults etc?

[Fritzer]

Originally Posted by gbalthrop

the BimmerGeeks K+DCAN "Pro" Cable for $45. That assumes they can get that cable back in stock (been "Out of Stock" for a Month or more).

https://www.amazon.com/s?k=BimmerGee...ref=nb_sb_noss

Do you think one of these Chinese ones will suffice in the interim, until BimmerGeeks has their's back in stock?

[Fritzer]

Well after waiting a week for the cable to come I decided to take the car to the dealer against my better judgment and just pay the $139 diagnostic fee. They have had the car for about 5 days now and just called me. 1) Given the same scenario and conditions they could not get the issue to replicate 2) Apparently, no fault codes in the EPK module, or codes stored in any of the modules for that matter.

Really beside myself on this one, not really sure where to go from here. Input appreciated. When the cable comes I guess I'll do some more diag myself in the garage.

On the bright side, got to enjoy the new 5er for the better part of a week:

[gbalthrop]

Originally Posted by Fritzer

Well after waiting a week for the cable to come I decided to take the car to the dealer against my better judgment and just pay the $139 diagnostic fee. They have had the car for about 5 days now and just called me. 1) Given the same scenario and conditions they could not get the issue to replicate 2) Apparently, no fault codes in the EPK module, or codes stored in any of the modules for that matter...

So the FIRST shop you took it to did NOT have INPA or ISTA, and could NOT Connect to/ Read Fault Codes IN, the EKP Module? Do you have any idea if they CLEARED any codes?

Did the DEALER who just had the car for a week check "Historienspeicher" or History Memory? BOTH the DME Module and EKP Module have a History Memory Function. THAT will show the last (up to 10 in the DME) fault codes saved, and the mileage at which saved, up to 3 most recent occurrences for each fault code.

You said first shop reported Transmission Fluid Wear fault, and yet Dealer found NO fault codes? Something does NOT compute there. I'm beginning to wonder if ANYONE takes the time to understand BMW Software these days.

It looks like BimmerGeeks has the $45 Pro model of K+DCAN cable in stock now:
https://www.bimmergeeks.net/product-...eeks-pro-cable
If you would like specific instructions on how to use INPA to quickly read Fault Codes in ALL Modules, and then to read History Memory for DME & EKP, let me know.
George

[Fritzer]

gbalthrop I agree, to my dismay and after asking multiple times, they repeatedly said that there were "no codes or stored codes". Couldn't talk to the tech.

Update: Happened again, today. Hasn't happened since I got the car back on Tuesday. Almost identical circumstances to the first time. Still waiting on the DCAN cable in the mail. This is quite frustrating to say the least. Anyone with any additional insight would be GREATLY appreciated. Honestly quite surprised that the dealer couldn't help/even point in the right direction of the issue. I may just take it to them once more and maybe they'll find something, idk.

[gbalthrop]

Originally Posted by Fritzer

Update: Happened again, today. Hasn't happened since I got the car back on Tuesday... I may just take it to them once more and maybe they'll find something, idk.

Last time I checked, THAT was the definition of "Insanity": Repeating the same act and expecting a DIFFERENT result.

Does it NOW fire when cranked, or is it STILL not firing?

If you don't yet have ANY Scan Tool or Diagnostic Software that can either Read Live Data, or Activate the Fuel Pump, there are always the old-school Shade Tree Mechanic methods, presuming it is cranking but NOT firing:
1) N51/N52 have Schrader Valve on Fuel Rail, to which a mechanical Fuel Gauge can be attached to determine that Fuel Pump is Functioning properly;
2) You can remove the Air Filter Housing (as you would to replace Air Filter) and spray ether/ Starting Fluid into the duct going to the throttle body. If car fires on ether, but NOT on its own, then NO fuel delivery OR No Injector Function.
3) You can Test Fuel Pump operation by "Hot-wiring" the Pump at the "Often Troublesome" round connector the N51 uses.
4) You can inspect & test the wiring connector pins and contacts to see if contacts are worn, burned or corroded.

Of course, Tests 1 - 3 won't work at all unless the system is in "Failure Mode", and it won't identify the actual cause of NO fueling to the cylinders (assuming that is in fact what we're dealing with). An intermittent issue which leaves NO Fault Codes and FF Data is VERY difficult to diagnose. I don't know whether to trust the Dealer info (2nd hand thru an SA as opposed to knowledgeable Tech) or NOT on the fact that there are NO Fault codes in ANY Module.

Since you have a 2011 N51, is the Fuel System (e.g. fuel tank) still in Warranty? If NOT when did it/ will it lose warranty status? Is it covered in TX or ONLY in CA?

Devil is ALWAYS in the Details. Only time I've ever dealt with a Dealership is to visit the Parts Department, and it's been YEARS since that last visit.
Are you waiting on the BG Pro Cable? Any clue when delivery expected?
George

[Fritzer]

Originally Posted by gbalthrop

Last time I checked, THAT was the definition of "Insanity": Repeating the same act and expecting a DIFFERENT result.

I agree, however this time I am not going to leave the car with them unless I can sit down with the foreman on exactly what I want them to look for/diagnose. And also give them comprehensive instructions to replicate the issue.

Originally Posted by gbalthrop

Does it NOW fire when cranked, or is it STILL not firing?

This time when I went to start it up after I stopped the car and turned ignition off then on, it almost fired back up right away. Gave it about 5 minutes and it started up fine and drove home. I will say, when I put the key in and turned ignition, the car-on-lift service light showed up briefly. When it stopped showing up, is when I tried cranking and the car turned on. It seems whatever the error is that is causing this, is not allowing the car to start until it "goes away" so to speak.

Originally Posted by gbalthrop

If you don't yet have ANY Scan Tool or Diagnostic Software that can either Read Live Data, or Activate the Fuel Pump, there are always the old-school Shade Tree Mechanic methods, presuming it is cranking but NOT firing:
1) N51/N52 have Schrader Valve on Fuel Rail, to which a mechanical Fuel Gauge can be attached to determine that Fuel Pump is Functioning properly;
2) You can remove the Air Filter Housing (as you would to replace Air Filter) and spray ether/ Starting Fluid into the duct going to the throttle body. If car fires on ether, but NOT on its own, then NO fuel delivery OR No Injector Function.
3) You can Test Fuel Pump operation by "Hot-wiring" the Pump at the "Often Troublesome" round connector the N51 uses.
4) You can inspect & test the wiring connector pins and contacts to see if contacts are worn, burned or corroded.

Of course, Tests 1 - 3 won't work at all unless the system is in "Failure Mode", and it won't identify the actual cause of NO fueling to the cylinders (assuming that is in fact what we're dealing with). An intermittent issue which leaves NO Fault Codes and FF Data is VERY difficult to diagnose. I don't know whether to trust the Dealer info (2nd hand thru an SA as opposed to knowledgeable Tech) or NOT on the fact that there are NO Fault codes in ANY Module.

Since you have a 2011 N51, is the Fuel System (e.g. fuel tank) still in Warranty? If NOT when did it/ will it lose warranty status? Is it covered in TX or ONLY in CA?

Devil is ALWAYS in the Details. Only time I've ever dealt with a Dealership is to visit the Parts Department, and it's been YEARS since that last visit.
Are you waiting on the BG Pro Cable? Any clue when delivery expected?
George

I have written down similar diagnostic techniques that I have researched, I will put these down too. I hate taking it to the dealer as well, but I just moved and I simply just don't have the time/tooling in the immediate future to diagnose this myself. Still waiting on the cable i ordered from amazon, might just order the bimmergeeks one and return the other now that BG has it back in stock. My car is no longer in the SULEV warranty, unfortunately.

Right now I'm just thinking to let the dealer have one more crack at it, with in-depth instructions, and hopefully they can figure it out. Past that, going to have to just wait on the cable and when I have time to sit down with the car and deal with it.

[gbalthrop]

I think it's MOST likely that the fuel pump is failing after it gets warm. When it cools, it runs again for x minutes.
Of course EKP Module COULD be faulty, OR there could be some wiring/ connector gremlin at pump connector.

If "Car-on-Lift" symbol was Yellow (as opposed to Red), then likely was either CC-ID 216 or CC-ID 309.
Attached are pdf with list of MOST CC-ID codes, and the corresponding Warning Lights on Instrument Cluster.
Also attached is "Check Control" procedure from my 2007 N52K 328xi Owner Manual.
I would suggest trying again to see if following Check Control Procedure provides a CC-ID code or two.

Press B/C Button 2 AFTER reading Last CC-ID Code to return to Time/Temp display.

George

[Fritzer]

Originally Posted by gbalthrop

I think it's MOST likely that the fuel pump is failing after it gets warm. When it cools, it runs again for x minutes.
Of course EKP Module COULD be faulty, OR there could be some wiring/ connector gremlin at pump connector.

If "Car-on-Lift" symbol was Yellow (as opposed to Red), then likely was either CC-ID 216 or CC-ID 309.
Attached are pdf with list of MOST CC-ID codes, and the corresponding Warning Lights on Instrument Cluster.
Also attached is "Check Control" procedure from my 2007 N52K 328xi Owner Manual.
I would suggest trying again to see if following Check Control Procedure provides a CC-ID code or two.

Press B/C Button 2 AFTER reading Last CC-ID Code to return to Time/Temp display.

George

Completely forgot about the cc-id codes!! I just went and checked it right now and I'm only getting 131/138, which are just for my lights. The car-on-lift light went away like I said after about 5 minutes, and once it went away the car fired right up per usual. Honestly, I'm going out to the freeway right now to replicate the issue if I can and when it happens, get the cc-id code at the least. Appreciate your help George, one day I'll buy you a few rounds of beer(or whatever you drink!).

[JonOhh]

Can you yank the backseat bottom and pump access port off to see if you can confirm the pump behaves differently when the issue is vs isn't happening?

I believe the pump should run during engine cranking? Under most conditions it's hard to hear it during the cranking process though- which is why I mention removing the panels so you can hear it inside of a relatively sealed cabin.


In terms of intermittent failure seemingly time based...I'm kinda leaning towards the control module getting hot and stopping, but you'd think that'd store a code that wouldn't self clear.

And yeah. We all owe George something at some point.

[Fritzer]

I have literally been idling/driving the car since my last post. Could not get the issue to reproduce. Literally 2 hours of driving 30mph-80mph, and maybe 1 hour of idling. Nothing. This has got to be one of the most infuriating car issue I've had to deal with.

Only thing I noticed was that there is now a rattling sound coming from right around the throttle body/DISA flap. No idea what that is, probably unrelated to the issue at hand. Never noticed it before though.

Originally Posted by JonOhh

In terms of intermittent failure seemingly time based...I'm kinda leaning towards the control module getting hot and stopping, but you'd think that'd store a code that wouldn't self clear.

That is what I'm thinking as well. After just test driving it for a considerable amount of time, could not get the issue to reproduce. Both times this stalling has happened there have been similar circumstances.

1) happened after car was sitting overnight
2) mid-morning/mid-day(hottest outside temps)
3) 20-30 minutes after initial cold start
4) about half of those 20-30 minutes are sitting in a drive-thru line

If I can't nail down exactly what this issue is after this next dealer diag, getting the DCAN cable, etc etc, I'm just going to start with replacing the whole fuel system bit by bit.

[Fritzer]

Can't get this issue out of my head, just sitting here at my desk thinking of all the possible ways to go about this.

Given the (very useful) pdf gbalthrop provided, I think that it is safe to say that it is almost certainly a fuel pump/fuel system issue of some kind. After doing all the research I possibly can across forums/youtube videos/SIBs, I am inclined to believe the EKPS is just failing/overheating/getting old. I have an itch to just buy a brand new one and install/code it to see if that fixes the problem. Just don't want to go down the rabbit hole of replacing things that don't need to be replaced, trying to chase an issue without nailing down precisely what the issue is beforehand.

I just wish this damn cable would come fast so I can just get in there and see for myself what is going on. Contemplating if I should even go back to the dealer for a 2nd time and just wait for the cable instead. I'm just thinking that if I can sit down with the foreman/tech and give them detailed information of what to look for/test, instead of the Service Advisor writing two ambiguous "customer states" sentences on the work order. That way they can at least triple check any stored codes in the modules, or do voltage tests on the fuel system components etc. I guess I'm just anxious to get to the bottom of this ASAP. :/

[JonOhh]

So, I'm kind of skeptical that what I am about to suggest is in any way, shape, or form a valid solution, but if you don't feel like dropping the money on a new pump controller without doing some experimenting first... it might be worth a shot if you wanna mess with it.


It definitely sounds like a thermal issue based on your condition- whether this is caused by the below, or a failing pump that is drawing too much current... I can't say.

It's possible that the thermal interface between the EKPM's circuitry and its heatsink/backplate has degraded with time, and improving this interface via new thermal pads could make enough of a difference to solve your issues.

Now, as rare as this is, it seems probable that something else is at play here. It's quite uncommon for these modules to have thermal issues on NA and non-modified turbo e90s...and with them all getting up there in years, you'd assume that any thermal interface on all of these cars has degraded somewhat similarly... seemingly without issue, but your call on if you want to try it. Some of the turbo guys go all out- throwing heatsinks on two of the major chips, and in extreme cases, installing a fan to make it actively cooled. The heatsinks can be found on amazon for a few dollars at most.

If I were to do this to mine I would:

* install new, high quality (and correct thickness!) thermal pads between the PCB and its heatsink/ backplate

*attempt to give the backplate as many heat paths to the environment as possible

* install heatsinks onto the two major components (check threads on this to see which ones, and be sure to orient them in such a way that convection will draw air through them when the module is mounted like it is in the car)

* add a few more ventilation holes to the case to be sure those shiny new heatsinks can do their job

Again. Before someone pipes up and roasts me for this suggestion...this is not typically the type of advice I'd give to someone due to how unsure I am but...it's very low risk other than wasting some time so why not? The main thing I don't like is that it could be a cover-up for the pump going out that could actually leave you stranded with no ability to simply wait for it to cool down before continuing your journey.


Final thoughts: if I have to spend more time writing the disclaimer than the actual advice maybe that's bad... just saying LOL

[Fritzer]

Update: Same thing happened twice today on relatively short drives. Once at noon, once about 30 minutes ago. Both drives less than 10 miles.

The CC-ID code is CC-ID 309. Additionally, I had generic codes P0420 and P0430 for the cats pop up this last week, but the car has been driving fine. Not sure if it's coincidental or related.

One difference I noticed today is that less than 5 minutes before the stalls, the drivetrain would shudder at 1500 RPMs as if it was misfiring then smooth out after about 1750-2000 RPMs. Additionally, when it shut off the second time I down shifted and floored it and the revs actually jumped up and it was getting fuel but the car was still slowing down and downshifting on it's own. Really at the end of the ropes on this have no idea what it could be and it's really upsetting. Not really in a good headspace right now and this just piles on, no idea where to start. I'm going to try and get INPA up and running tonight but I've been having issues with the downloads that BimmerGeeks provides.

Tomorrow I'm ripping the whole backseat out until this problem is gone so I can have easy access to the EKP module and fuel pump. Any input from Efthreeoh, gbalthrop, or any of the other big heads on here would be seriously appreciated. Thanks guys.