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      01-12-2019, 02:19 AM   #45
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Could anybody provide a reason(s) why AMG cars are selling more than Ms.
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      01-12-2019, 04:45 AM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by babaikram View Post
Could anybody provide a reason(s) why AMG cars are selling more than Ms.
Overall AMG has more models. For example BMW M doesn't have equivalent cars to the AMG GT, GLA, CLA, CLS, C and E Class station wagon, GLC, G Class etc. For some of them they may have the M Performance version (as AMG have the 43 version), but not an M version.

Not saying this is the only reason since I don't know the exact numbers of each model.
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      01-12-2019, 04:49 AM   #47
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Why do some consider the AMG 43 models more "AMG" than the M Performance cars as "M"? Not arguing about whether the M Performance cars are M cars or not, just comparing AMG 43 and M Performance.
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      01-12-2019, 05:08 AM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by babaikram View Post
Could anybody provide a reason(s) why AMG cars are selling more than Ms.
Mercedes currently has a more plentiful lineup. On every new segment BMW has either created or entered, Mercedes either was already present or brought in its own competitor, but it also has models with no counterpart so far from BMW. Namely, the boxy G Class SUV, the recently launched X Class pick-up, the E Class Estate All-Terrain, the pair of hardcore AMG S Class (S63 and S65), the SL roadster, and of course the standalone AMG models (GT, GT 4 door, Project One). So basically Mercedes has a rival to match pretty much every BMW model plus much more, while the opposite isn't true with only a few irrelevant exceptions (the doomed 3 GT and 6 GT).

Out of this vast array of models, Mercedes has been striving to make an AMG version of almost every one with few exceptions, and naturally the standalone AMG models. Lately they've rebranded the AMG Sport models into simply AMG and started to add several AMG layers within the same model range (e.g. A35, A45; AMG GT 4 door 43, 53, 63). For years this AMG frenzy might have looked like a cheap whoring out, a range of simply more powerful Mercedes compared to BMW M's more purebred, more hardcore, more standalone models imbued with motorsport spirit... But in the end the sale numbers proved Mercedes right and BMW is now trying to catch up with all-new M models (X3M/X4M, M5 Touring maybe...) and even more so with M Performance models across the lineup. It isn't just numbers though, as the latest AMGs have proven to not only be worthy competitors but oftentimes superior to their M rivals in several departments (E63S) or offering something that M doesn't (V8 on the C63 range and the GLC63 range). Finally, the very successful AMG campaign in F1 and the dream factor of AMG's supercar (GT) and now hypercar (Project One) have certainly raised the AMG brand's image tremendously.

So expect AMG numbers to keep staying ahead for a decent time, and expect BMW to launch a swarm of new M and M Performance models in the years to come to try to close up the gap.

Last edited by advantage20; 01-12-2019 at 11:48 AM..
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      01-12-2019, 05:42 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by Croatian test driver View Post
Why do some consider the AMG 43 models more "AMG" than the M Performance cars as "M"? Not arguing about whether the M Performance cars are M cars or not, just comparing AMG 43 and M Performance.
It is the psychology of the 'full M' owners. That makes me suspect a lot have bought their 'full M' cars for exclusivity rather than performance. Otherwise they would not be so worried about arrival of 'M lite' cars being referred to as a variant of M. The new M340i performance is very close to current M3 and is coming with LSD.

More so, subconsciously, it is easier to accept AMG 43 as more AMG as this acceptance does not threaten the 'exclusivity' of their full M

I know I am buying a 'full M' car early or later in the future (all things being the same) but M-lite cars would always remain a variant of M cars.

I am trying to hold out with all my reasonable will for an S58 engined M2 or M3/M4.

Last edited by babaikram; 01-12-2019 at 05:47 AM..
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      01-12-2019, 06:29 AM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by babaikram View Post
It is the psychology of the 'full M' owners. That makes me suspect a lot have bought their 'full M' cars for exclusivity rather than performance. Otherwise they would not be so worried about arrival of 'M lite' cars being referred to as a variant of M.
Indeed true for many. But at least for a long time M's exclusivity was backed up with proper driving dynamics compared to the AMGs which were more coarse and brutal, less finetuned, more like just regular Mercedes on steroids. Now however the irony is AMG is catching up with M's driving dynamics on top of being a plentiful and diverse range selling in large numbers across the lineup. So the 'M exclusive' fanboys are losing their moral highground, while BMW now has lots of work to do to keep the quality up while increasing the quantity.

Last edited by advantage20; 01-12-2019 at 06:52 AM..
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      01-12-2019, 08:46 AM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kozzi View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster View Post
it's the only way they can appear to be on the same page/in the same ballpark of 100K performance model vehicles along with Mercedes in their print.


BMW M (all) : 102,780 units (+27.2% from 2017) Less- (19,670) X3m40 units = 83,110




Conveniently.. nothing at BMW ever is a true tradition any more.

https://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1553566

it appears that " M performance" models are considered to be part of the M lineup in some ways..
I agree if I am understanding your post correctly. This is nothing more than BMW playing games with numbers and trying to compare apples to apples. They like to eat their cake and have it too.

MP vehicles are not M vehicles. Well except when BMW needs to compete with AMG and show that they can sell almost as many Ms as Mercedes can sell AMGs.

Give me a break BMW. Mercedes made up their mind. Either commit or don't but this in-between stuff...sucks!
Exactly!
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      01-12-2019, 09:26 AM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster View Post
BMW M (all) : 102,780 units (+27.2% from 2017) Less- (19,670) X3m40 units = 83,110
Not to mention:

X2 M35i
M140i
M240i
X3 M40d
X4 M40i
X4 M40d
M550i
M550d
X5 M50d
X6 M50d
X7 M50d
M760i
M850i

Sales of each individually may be relatively low, but taken together I’m sure they make up a significant chunk of the total.

What’s interesting about the individual model sales BMW did reveal, assuming they are indeed the top three selling models as the press release text implies, is that the M2 outsells the M240i (even with the latter featuring both a coupe and convertible model), and the M5 outsells both the M550i and M550d (even with the latter featuring both a sedan and touring model, though the M550* total may eclipse the M5 since I suspect the presence of the M550d in Europe makes the M550i nearly invisible there, while in North America obviously only the gasoline model is offered).

Once BMW’s master plan (to M all the things) is complete by the end of this year *, we’ll also have:

M135i (though it comes at the expense of the M140i, and it may not sell as well)
M235i
M340i
M340d
X3 M (with it and its sibling below being the only new M-proper offerings **)
X4 M
Z4 M40i
X5 M50i
X6 M50i
X7 M50i

* Except the M440i and M440d which must wait for the G22, G23, and G26
** I’m not including the M8 since those will merely replace the departed M6 models

And then we’ll see just how BMW and Mercedes performance vehicle sales stack up. BMW will not have an answer for everything, of course. Nothing to battle the AMG *45 lineup (while Mercedes is adding a new *35 lineup to go against BMW’s M*35i vehicles) and nothing to pit against the AMG GT, the SL55/SL65, and G55/G65. But those are not where the bulk of AMG’s sales are likely to be.

I like this new battleground. Good for enthusiasts.
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      01-12-2019, 09:38 AM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
^ Good question. I'm also curious about how's VAG's "Audi Sport" division performed (S and RS models plus the R8).

I don't recall seeing official M numbers made public in the past. Maybe I just never noticed, or I am misremembering.

M sales should see a sharp uptick this year with all the new M SAVs (including the first ever X3 M and X4 M), plus the M340i and Z4 M40i.
Audi Sport only produces RS models and R8, not the S models.
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      01-12-2019, 10:08 AM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hekki View Post
Audi Sport only produces RS models and R8, not the S models.
That may very well be the case in the strict sense, but if Audi ever decides to report performance vehicle numbers, we should expect S models to be included else they would be even further behind BMW and Mercedes.

And then the Audi guys can argue about whether their S models are true “Audi Sport” models too.

(BTW, Google says quattro GmbH had a hand in the last generation S8 plus, so we may see them with their new name start to lay claim to other S models too.)
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      01-12-2019, 10:08 AM   #55
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Missing Audi Sport numbers. AMG is still ahead of M
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      01-12-2019, 10:24 AM   #56
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MPA cars are not really M cars in my opinion.
They’re not even close. The 235 I had was the worst BMW I’ve ever had (I’m on #7 now, and 12 in the family).

It was so disappointing that I left the brand and got a Porsche. I don’t think that’s how the strategy is supposed to work.
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      01-12-2019, 12:02 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 10" View Post
13,000 M2s sold in 2018. So how many have they made in total now? 40,000+?

..sucks for those who paid $20k over sticker for what is essentially a mass produced car now.

...
The sucking started the moment they paid $20k over sticker.

BMWs are great cars, but they are not rare cars worthy of paying over sticker as, what, an investment?
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      01-12-2019, 12:48 PM   #58
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Are M Performance cars "real" M cars? They're as much "real M" as those Mercedes 43 models are "real AMG", and BMW counts them in their M sales, just like Mercedes counts those AMG-lite models in their AMG sales, so that's really all that matters. The rest is just semantics, it's a completely pointless argument. Yes, there's a hierarchy of the M cars, we get it.

The funniest part of this whole meaningless debate is that the same people who are so up in arms about this are the same people that would be like "WTF IS WRONG WITH BMW, M GOT THEIR ASSES KICKED BY AMG!!!!" if BMW DIDN'T count M Performance models as M sales, since Mercedes counts their AMG-lites in their total.
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      01-12-2019, 01:48 PM   #59
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M-sport models should be counted under the M category for sales statistics.

Take a breath, I'm kidding.


This whole M debate is probably never going to end. Owners of true M cars, you know who you are. Other people sticking fake m badges on aren't going to make your true M any less special. BMW marketing M-lite cars and M-look alike cars doesn't change how special your true M cars are. Honestly, if I had a true M car, i might be annoyed by all of this M-lite and and M-look-alike nonsense. But, as the owner of an M-sport who likes the looks but doesn't have need or desire for all that power and track ability, I'm glad BMW recoginizes there are buyers who want something that looks cool and performs better than the base models without being a fire-breathing dragon like true M cars.

Should BMW put an M badge on any of these pretenders? True M owners probably think not. M-sport owners like me say sure, if the factory put the m on it, I'm not posing nor am I pretending I'm driving the real thing. Anyone with any business saavy at all knows that its a brilliant move by BMW to leverage the M brand name.

This debate will live on....and on.
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      01-12-2019, 02:35 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sygazelle View Post
M-sport models should be counted under the M category for sales statistics.

Take a breath, I'm kidding.


This whole M debate is probably never going to end. Owners of true M cars, you know who you are. Other people sticking fake m badges on aren't going to make your true M any less special. BMW marketing M-lite cars and M-look alike cars doesn't change how special your true M cars are. Honestly, if I had a true M car, i might be annoyed by all of this M-lite and and M-look-alike nonsense. But, as the owner of an M-sport who likes the looks but doesn't have need or desire for all that power and track ability, I'm glad BMW recoginizes there are buyers who want something that looks cool and performs better than the base models without being a fire-breathing dragon like true M cars.

Should BMW put an M badge on any of these pretenders? True M owners probably think not. M-sport owners like me say sure, if the factory put the m on it, I'm not posing nor am I pretending I'm driving the real thing. Anyone with any business saavy at all knows that its a brilliant move by BMW to leverage the M brand name.

This debate will live on....and on.
Don't let us take ourselves too seriously All is just banter.

I love exhaust sounds so much and I know AMGs sound much better from factory.

So might buy C63AMG rather than a 'full M'

Let's enjoy our cars. Cheers
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      01-12-2019, 05:17 PM   #61
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Wonder why Audi is taking such a hit.
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      01-12-2019, 05:48 PM   #62
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Another reason M Performance cars shouldn't be considered true M cars is because M Performance cars are manufactured by BMW AG while M cars are manufactured by BMW M GmbH. It could just be semantics but it appears that it's a deliberate choice by BMW to have their cars have separate manufacturers.

Edit: By "manufactured" I mean what is listed as the manufacturer. I do realize that M cars nowadays are manufactured at the same plants as regular BMWs.

Last edited by marvinp; 01-12-2019 at 05:57 PM..
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      01-12-2019, 07:44 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by babaikram View Post
It is unbelievable how far people would go to prove that M performance cars are not M cars.
It's simple: they're not.
True statement. The M brand is diluted.
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      01-12-2019, 08:46 PM   #64
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      01-13-2019, 09:50 AM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sygazelle View Post
M-sport models should be counted under the M category for sales statistics.

Take a breath, I'm kidding.


This whole M debate is probably never going to end. Owners of true M cars, you know who you are. Other people sticking fake m badges on aren't going to make your true M any less special. BMW marketing M-lite cars and M-look alike cars doesn't change how special your true M cars are. Honestly, if I had a true M car, i might be annoyed by all of this M-lite and and M-look-alike nonsense. But, as the owner of an M-sport who likes the looks but doesn't have need or desire for all that power and track ability, I'm glad BMW recoginizes there are buyers who want something that looks cool and performs better than the base models without being a fire-breathing dragon like true M cars.

Should BMW put an M badge on any of these pretenders? True M owners probably think not. M-sport owners like me say sure, if the factory put the m on it, I'm not posing nor am I pretending I'm driving the real thing. Anyone with any business saavy at all knows that its a brilliant move by BMW to leverage the M brand name.

This debate will live on....and on.
I'm more on the side that de-badging even a "true M" tickles my fancy. On the other hand, you can't say there's anything inherently wrong if somebody prefers their factory M badges on M-sport package cars even, if that's their preference then they're welcome to enjoy it that way.

What I never understood is the people sticking M badges where they've no place to do so (eg. to the rear model designation on regular models). The people that'd care or be impressed will know anyway it's fakery and just have a giggle, a small cringe, or both. So what the point is, we'll never know.
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      01-13-2019, 10:23 AM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KTN View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by sygazelle View Post
M-sport models should be counted under the M category for sales statistics.

Take a breath, I'm kidding.


This whole M debate is probably never going to end. Owners of true M cars, you know who you are. Other people sticking fake m badges on aren't going to make your true M any less special. BMW marketing M-lite cars and M-look alike cars doesn't change how special your true M cars are. Honestly, if I had a true M car, i might be annoyed by all of this M-lite and and M-look-alike nonsense. But, as the owner of an M-sport who likes the looks but doesn't have need or desire for all that power and track ability, I'm glad BMW recoginizes there are buyers who want something that looks cool and performs better than the base models without being a fire-breathing dragon like true M cars.

Should BMW put an M badge on any of these pretenders? True M owners probably think not. M-sport owners like me say sure, if the factory put the m on it, I'm not posing nor am I pretending I'm driving the real thing. Anyone with any business saavy at all knows that its a brilliant move by BMW to leverage the M brand name.

This debate will live on....and on.
I'm more on the side that de-badging even a "true M" tickles my fancy. On the other hand, you can't say there's anything inherently wrong if somebody prefers their factory M badges on M-sport package cars even, if that's their preference then they're welcome to enjoy it that way.

What I never understood is the people sticking M badges where they've no place to do so (eg. to the rear model designation on regular models). The people that'd care or be impressed will know anyway it's fakery and just have a giggle, a small cringe, or both. So what the point is, we'll never know.
Those people end up here for our amusement

Fake Badges & Such... https://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1052983

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