[Shellacked135i]

Originally Posted by vasillalov

The problems you speak of are not uncommon to any platform. As previously explained in another thread, any flash tune will be subject to problems when the manufacturer updates the ECU. I could have asked my dealership not to update my firmware but while I am in warranty, I want to keep up with the latest BMW software. After the warranty is over, I won't be updating the ECU nearly as much.

Concerning the methanol comments, my personal opinion is that methanol is not to be taken lightly and cannot be relied on from day-to-day basis. As previously discussed, methanol is only for the most advanced users who are fully aware of the risks involved and know what they are doing. Quit preaching methanol left and right!

Finally, I will repeat this time and again: Saying that someone is wrong is OK in those forums for as long as a reasonable and understandable explanation is provided. Blatantly saying: "You are talking smack and you don't understand anything" helps no one!

This doesnt take away from the fact that you are constantly in and out of threads trashing piggybacks. If you dont like em, dont buy em. Stay out. You dont contribute anything but clutter. Most of the time you are incorrect and your negative accusations turn out to be incorrect. You trash them like they are so problematic, yet you have your own problems on your tuning platform. Life isnt perfect. Different strokes for different folks.

[Doug007]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

They will also have to improve boost control strategies (make throttle less reactive to overshoot). And get rid of the airflow targeting logic that drops boost when it could/should be raised. And visa versa. I suspect one reason we dont see any high boost flashes is that the boost targets would climb too high in warm days or after a long sustained full boost pull (when IAT gets high). Fundamental issues when making good safe power is more important than trying to make Xhp in all conditions.

You guys need to read this carefully.

If you don't know, the stock tuning tries to maintain power under varying conditions. As it gets hotter, the DME actually raises boost to maintain 300hp.

This is a fundamental feature of the DME architecture. It is designed for consistency, not maximum power.

The piggybacks take control of boost, fuel, etc. with the goal of maximum performance for the conditions, not consistency. You will make less power on hot days, and more power on cold days. Same is true with varying fuel quality.

Changing how the DME works is simply not as simple as reflashing the DME to resize and tune existing tables.

[Doug007]

Originally Posted by vasillalov

Concerning the methanol comments, my personal opinion is that methanol is not to be taken lightly and cannot be relied on from day-to-day basis. As previously discussed, methanol is only for the most advanced users who are fully aware of the risks involved and know what they are doing. Quit preaching methanol left and right!

If don't want to run methanol (maybe because of flash integration issues), you won't be running 18+psig and won't be making big power.

That is fine. But for those that want to run the maximum possible performance, methanol is required.

Personally, I share your reluctance to run meth. I'd be ecstatic with 400whp with a tune and bolt ons with 93oct and more if I want to run racegas.

[dlbrooks18]

Piggy's have proven to be the fastest at the track, low to mid 11's in the quarter mile with 120+mph traps so I don't think there is much to this..

[Clap135]

Originally Posted by Doug007

You guys need to read this carefully.

If you don't know, the stock tuning tries to maintain power under varying conditions. As it gets hotter, the DME actually raises boost to maintain 300hp.

This is a fundamental feature of the DME architecture. It is designed for consistency, not maximum power.

The piggybacks take control of boost, fuel, etc. with the goal of maximum performance for the conditions, not consistency. You will make less power on hot days, and more power on cold days. Same is true with varying fuel quality.

Changing how the DME works is simply not as simple as reflashing the DME to resize and tune existing tables.

What about all the jb3 records which use the same logic that the factory dme uses? Maxium power not tunes not working?

[Shellacked135i]

It should also be mentioned the even the stock tune will knock, just as my as any flash can knock. There is no perfect solution unless your tuned extremely conservative. STI/EVo etc all knock stock as well. The best thing you can do is limit the amount of knock and have a process to determine a happy medium. I think the stock DME logic is ass-backwards but thats cause im used to tuning stand-alone systems.

[Doug007]

Originally Posted by Clap135

What about all the jb3 records which use the same logic that the factory dme uses? Maxium power not tunes not working?

The JB3 does more than scale up the factory boost target. The JB4 is a further step from the stock DME logic.

Maybe you should read this: http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=345306

[Doug007]

Originally Posted by Shellacked135i

It should also be mentioned the even the stock tune will knock, just as my as any flash can knock. There is no perfect solution unless your tuned extremely conservative. STI/EVo etc all knock stock as well. The best thing you can do is limit the amount of knock and have a process to determine a happy medium. I think the stock DME logic is ass-backwards but thats cause im used to tuning stand-alone systems.

So what happens when a protuned COBB 335i gets a tank of crappy gas?

This the main reason I think autotuned piggies are superior at this point. They will give you the maximum safe tune all the time for the specific conditions your engine is under. Not just the conditions when you were on the dyno being protuned...

[Shellacked135i]

Originally Posted by Doug007

So what happens when a protuned COBB 335i gets a tank of crappy gas?

This the main reason I think autotuned piggies are superior at this point. They will give you the maximum safe tune all the time for the specific conditions your engine is under. Not just the conditions when you were on the dyno being protuned...

I'm curious as well. If it works like a standalone its going to knock assuming ignition timing is already on the verge of knocking.
Its the ignition timing is conservative enough, it might have enough play.

It will respond like the factory DME and cut back ignition from what i understand.

[Mike@N54Tuning.com]

Originally Posted by Clap135

What about all the jb3 records which use the same logic that the factory dme uses? Maxium power not tunes not working?

The JB3 did not use the stock logic for temperature compensation. It increased boost during colder weather and reduced it during hot weather. It just didn't do it enough to fully overcome the OEM logic.

Mike

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by Doug007

So what happens when a protuned COBB 335i gets a tank of crappy gas?

This the main reason I think autotuned piggies are superior at this point. They will give you the maximum safe tune all the time for the specific conditions your engine is under. Not just the conditions when you were on the dyno being protuned...

I know what it wouldn't do: lower the boost

It's obvious that factory DME logic great for low output levels where knock isn't an issue. Where achieving the rated 300-340 horsepower (through various combinations of boost/fuel/timing) is the primary goal regardless of temp, humidity, baro, fuel quality, etc,. This dynamic behavior is courtesy of the DME's internal combustion model that those Germans sent a lot of time/resources developing. And it works as well (or better) than anyone could expect it to work.

The problem, as we have all discovered by now, is that this goal is contradictory to what what most of us want in a tuned car. The idea of tuning is make as much safe power as the conditions allow. Not to attempt to make what is too much power when conditions take a turn for the worse and too little when conditions get favorable.

Shiv

[Clap135]

Originally Posted by Doug007

The JB3 does more than scale up the factory boost target. The JB4 is a further step from the stock DME logic.

Maybe you should read this: http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=345306

I think you should read up on how each tune works. Aside from running more boost the jb3 did nothign different. Same af ratio, shit timing, more boost.

[Clap135]

Originally Posted by Doug007

So what happens when a protuned COBB 335i gets a tank of crappy gas?

This the main reason I think autotuned piggies are superior at this point. They will give you the maximum safe tune all the time for the specific conditions your engine is under. Not just the conditions when you were on the dyno being protuned...

Same thing that happens when a stock car gets shit gas. Autotune works based off knock.

[Clap135]

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

The JB3 did not use the stock logic for temperature compensation. It increased boost during colder weather and reduced it during hot weather. It just didn't do it enough to fully overcome the OEM logic.

Mike

BULLSHTI, should i quote all the times terry said "map up" to people in cold weather or on meth. Try again.

[Clap135]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

I know what it wouldn't do: lower the boost

It's obvious that factory DME logic great for low output levels where knock isn't an issue. Where achieving the rated 300-340 horsepower (through various combinations of boost/fuel/timing) is the primary goal regardless of temp, humidity, baro, fuel quality, etc,. This dynamic behavior is courtesy of the DME's internal combustion model that those Germans sent a lot of time/resources developing. And it works as well (or better) than anyone could expect it to work.

The problem, as we have all discovered by now, is that this goal is contradictory to what what most of us want in a tuned car. The idea of tuning is make as much safe power as the conditions allow. Not to attempt to make what is too much power when conditions take a turn for the worse and too little when conditions get favorable.

Shiv

Actually the stock dme would lower boost....this can be simply vertified by looking at load level mapping and what affects them.

[vasillalov]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

I know what it wouldn't do: lower the boost

HAhahah! So who is spreading misinformation here again????

[Clap135]

This thread is gonna quickly turn to a tuner war. Im over those by now.

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by Clap135

Actually the stock dme would lower boost....this can be simply vertified by looking at load level mapping and what affects them.

Come on man. I've looked at can dme boost target at varying levels of knock activity. And no appreciable drop in target. The big drop in boost comes in the form of a limp mode caused by glow ignition/knock codes.

[Clap135]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

Come on man. I've looked at can dme boost target at varying levels of knock activity. And no appreciable drop in target. The big drop in boost comes in the form of a limp mode caused by glow ignition/knock codes.

No you looked at what the dme thinks when its fed bullshit signals to keep happy. Maybe ask cobb about this as they already made this claim.

Found it:
The factory targets roughly 135; from the factory, the actual "requested" value can get knocked down when the ECU feels it is necessary It's entirely possible that if knock is induced over a long enough period that the ECU will change it's control/response strategy from "reduce timing in the noisy cylinders" to "reduce load requested to reduce cylinder pressures".

Regards,
Lance

[135i]

Hope things stay civil..

Shiv - I would simply like the issue of only monitoring cylinder 1 on the PROcede unit vs all and if that is the best approach for monitoring knock events and pulling timing.

Thank you

[BobS]

Originally Posted by 135i

Hope things stay civil..

Shiv - I would simply like the issue of only monitoring cylinder 1 on the PROcede unit vs all and if that is the best approach for monitoring knock events and pulling timing.

Thank you

+ 1

I'm interested to hear about this too

[Doug007]

The DME sees knock with no piggyback interference. If it was going to lower it's boost setpoint you would see it.

Cobb saying "It's entirely possible" that the DME shifts strategy doesn't mean it does.

All evidence points to it pulling timing until it gets to the point it goes into limp mode and cuts all boost.