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      10-19-2016, 01:56 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UglyBuzzard View Post
Please expand on who benefits in the US from Nafta? Cheap goods is not a benefit.
Cheap goods is a benefit because the counter to that is inflation, perhaps significant inflation.

However, since you ask: 9,000,000 Americans are employed in activities linked to trade with Canada (remember, NAFTA is tripartite not just Mexico). US and Canada do almost $700 billion in trade each year. In 2015, the US had a trade surplus with Canada of $11.9 billion. Canada had a slight surplus in 2014. In other words, in goods and services, trade between the countries is relatively balanced.

Further, the notion that lost rust belt jobs are the product of NAFTA is wholly unsupported by the evidence. That those jobs went to Mexico instead of other low wage foreign countries may be attributable to NAFTA (to some extent) but not fully. Further, if you think re-consituting trade barriers will restore jobs in Ohio or Pennsylvania or Michigan, you're wrong. At best, any growth in US jobs due to the imposition of trade barriers will be in right to work, low wage, states like Tennessee, not the rust belt. If NAFTA had never been signed and Trump's right and all those US jobs that were lost would have stayed, they still would have moved to at will jurisdictions and not a single job in Wisconsin that disappeared would have been saved.

Lastly, there is a whole generation of American employers who have thrived on globalization (not just NAFTA). Those significant enterprises would likely not have set up shop in the US but sought out freer trade jurisdictions like the EU and Canada. The economic impact of that is pretty significant.

In short, starting a trade war with Canada and Mexico will lead to much higher prices of consumer goods in the US, likely higher interest rates, higher unemployment, and not save a single meaningful job (especially in the rust belt).
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      10-19-2016, 01:58 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnyCanuck View Post
I'm just making the point that there are valid reasons. If things like marriage equality, the irredeemable nature of the death penalty, and maintaining Roe v. Wade matter to you, then you don't want another Scalia on the Supreme Court bench and you don't want to vote for Trump. Likewise, if you're one of the 9,000,000 Americans whose livelihood is dependent on trade with Canada, the threat to rip up NAFTA poses significant risk to you.

I'm not actually expressing a partisan view, simply pointing out that there are valid policy and platform reasons to vote Democrat and that feeling that way doesn't make one stupid or retarded and doesn't merit that kind of intolerant venom that spews from some of the members who the OP will claim to miss. I sure as hell won't.
Who are these 9M US citizens that are dependent on trade with Canada? What is the industry? I am sincerely curious.
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      10-19-2016, 02:00 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnyCanuck View Post
Cheap goods is a benefit because the counter to that is inflation, perhaps significant inflation.

However, since you ask: 9,000,000 Americans are employed in activities linked to trade with Canada (remember, NAFTA is tripartite not just Mexico). US and Canada do almost $700 billion in trade each year. In 2015, the US had a trade surplus with Canada of $11.9 billion. Canada had a slight surplus in 2014. In other words, in goods and services, trade between the countries is relatively balanced.

Further, the notion that lost rust belt jobs are the product of NAFTA is wholly unsupported by the evidence. That those jobs went to Mexico instead of other low wage foreign countries may be attributable to NAFTA (to some extent) but not fully. Further, if you think re-consituting trade barriers will restore jobs in Ohio or Pennsylvania or Michigan, you're wrong. At best, any growth in US jobs due to the imposition of trade barriers will be in right to work, low wage, states like Tennessee, not the rust belt. If NAFTA had never been signed and Trump's right and all those US jobs that were lost would have stayed, they still would have moved to at will jurisdictions and not a single job in Wisconsin that disappeared would have been saved.

Lastly, there is a whole generation of American employers who have thrived on globalization (not just NAFTA). Those significant enterprises would likely not have set up shop in the US but sought out freer trade jurisdictions like the EU and Canada. The economic impact of that is pretty significant.

In short, starting a trade war with Canada and Mexico will lead to much higher prices of consumer goods in the US, likely higher interest rates, higher unemployment, and not save a single meaningful job (especially in the rust belt).
There's a lot more to the equasion that you're glossing over including cost of the regulatory beast in the US which drives a lot of business out of the US not to mention high corporate tax rates to bring profits back

Lets not even get into currency manipulation and a bunch of other issues that fuel all sorts of other perversions of this equasion

No matter how you slice it, NAFTA has been bad for american citizens
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      10-19-2016, 02:02 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnyCanuck View Post
Cheap goods is a benefit because the counter to that is inflation, perhaps significant inflation.

However, since you ask: 9,000,000 Americans are employed in activities linked to trade with Canada (remember, NAFTA is tripartite not just Mexico). US and Canada do almost $700 billion in trade each year. In 2015, the US had a trade surplus with Canada of $11.9 billion. Canada had a slight surplus in 2014. In other words, in goods and services, trade between the countries is relatively balanced.

Further, the notion that lost rust belt jobs are the product of NAFTA is wholly unsupported by the evidence. That those jobs went to Mexico instead of other low wage foreign countries may be attributable to NAFTA (to some extent) but not fully. Further, if you think re-consituting trade barriers will restore jobs in Ohio or Pennsylvania or Michigan, you're wrong. At best, any growth in US jobs due to the imposition of trade barriers will be in right to work, low wage, states like Tennessee, not the rust belt. If NAFTA had never been signed and Trump's right and all those US jobs that were lost would have stayed, they still would have moved to at will jurisdictions and not a single job in Wisconsin that disappeared would have been saved.

Lastly, there is a whole generation of American employers who have thrived on globalization (not just NAFTA). Those significant enterprises would likely not have set up shop in the US but sought out freer trade jurisdictions like the EU and Canada. The economic impact of that is pretty significant.

In short, starting a trade war with Canada and Mexico will lead to much higher prices of consumer goods in the US, likely higher interest rates, higher unemployment, and not save a single meaningful job (especially in the rust belt).
I will respectfully disagree with your assumptions. For the record, I like Canadian goods and happy to pay more for what I choose to buy.

Stagnation and deflation are far worse than a little inflation.
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      10-19-2016, 02:08 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by UglyBuzzard View Post
Who are these 9M US citizens that are dependent on trade with Canada? What is the industry? I am sincerely curious.
You export $375 billion in goods and services to Canada in a given year. Someone is working to generate that product. Certainly there is significant trade dependent employment in agriculture, tech, automotive, and manufacturing. This is 2014 data, but as follows (in $ billions):
  • Automotive: $45.7
  • Mechanical machinery: $33.5
  • Energy: $17.4
  • Electrical machinery: $14.8
  • Plastics: $11.7
  • Other key industries were identified as: precision instruments, iron and steel, paper, pharmaceutical products and rubber
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      10-19-2016, 02:11 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by UglyBuzzard View Post
I will respectfully disagree with your assumptions. For the record, I like Canadian goods and happy to pay more for what I choose to buy.

Stagnation and deflation are far worse than a little inflation.
Fair enough ... but all I said was if you're employed in one of those trade dependent sectors, you care about the impact of a trade war and that's a valid reason to vote Democrat. There's no rational argument to counter that.
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      10-19-2016, 02:13 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by jpnh View Post
There's a lot more to the equasion that you're glossing over including cost of the regulatory beast in the US which drives a lot of business out of the US not to mention high corporate tax rates to bring profits back

Lets not even get into currency manipulation and a bunch of other issues that fuel all sorts of other perversions of this equasion

No matter how you slice it, NAFTA has been bad for american citizens
And you entirely miss my point. If you are involved in bilateral trade with Canada or Mexico and your livelihood depends on it ... you have a valid reason for voting Democrat.

All I said was that there are valid reasons to vote Democrat. Never said in this thread there weren't valid reasons to vote Republican. Why argue such an obvious point?

At least you're making progress because you didn't call me names.
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      10-19-2016, 02:15 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnyCanuck View Post
And you entirely miss my point. If you are involved in bilateral trade with Canada or Mexico and your livelihood depends on it ... you have a valid reason for voting Democrat.

All I said was that there are valid reasons to vote Democrat. Never said in this thread there weren't valid reasons to vote Republican. Why argue such an obvious point?

At least you're making progress because you didn't call me names.
Just another mad hillary hater realizing trump can't win. Expect them to act out more as the election approaches.
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      10-19-2016, 02:15 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnyCanuck View Post
And you entirely miss my point. If you are involved in bilateral trade with Canada or Mexico and your livelihood depends on it ... you have a valid reason for voting Democrat.

All I said was that there are valid reasons to vote Democrat. Never said in this thread there weren't valid reasons to vote Republican. Why argue such an obvious point?

At least you're making progress because you didn't call me names.
And that condition was one that was artificially created by a fundamentally corrupt NAFTA deal

eliminate the bad deal and more jobs/opportunities become avail through organic processes here in the US
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      10-19-2016, 02:20 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by justinnum1 View Post
Just another mad hillary hater realizing trump can't win. Expect them to act out more as the election approaches.
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      10-19-2016, 02:22 PM   #33
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And that condition was one that was artificially created by a fundamentally corrupt NAFTA deal

eliminate the bad deal and more jobs/opportunities become avail through organic processes here in the US
Why can you not simply acknowledge that there are valid reasons to vote Democrat? What about protecting gay marriage, ending the death penalty, maintaining a woman's right to choose? If you believe in those things, why would you want to see another conservative on the Supreme Court? If you're employed in trade dependent industry, why would you want to elect someone who threatens your livelihood? If you're in the military and you feel that the Democrats will be more reasonable in your deployment (I'm not making a point that they are or aren't ... but rather if it's what you think), then why would you vote for Trump?

Your closed mindedness is shockingly unbelievable ... even for bimmerpost. None of what I am saying is partisan, just obvious.
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      10-19-2016, 02:31 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnyCanuck View Post
Why can you not simply acknowledge that there are valid reasons to vote Democrat? What about protecting gay marriage, ending the death penalty, maintaining a woman's right to choose? If you believe in those things, why would you want to see another conservative on the Supreme Court? If you're employed in trade dependent industry, why would you want to elect someone who threatens your livelihood? If you're in the military and you feel that the Democrats will be more reasonable in your deployment (I'm not making a point that they are or aren't ... but rather if it's what you think), then why would you vote for Trump?

Your closed mindedness is shockingly unbelievable ... even for bimmerpost. None of what I am saying is partisan, just obvious.
Protecting gay marriage? Where have you been?
Her staff say she's still against it in an email. That and she wants to void Catholicism as Catholics presently know it.
Good stuff.
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      10-19-2016, 02:31 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by John Tanglewood View Post
Half the people you listed I never even see post in the regular forums!!!! I'm guessing they just come to troll and leave, all day every day.

I'm actually excited for all this shit to end. We come here to share our common love for BMWs. I have seen individuals stoop to some seriously childish levels over the past year, and it's disappointing. Entertaining (which is sad in itself), but wholly disappointing.
It's easy to see who the political trolls are--you look at their public profile and statistics and see where else they post. You can see if they have interest in any other area of Bimmerpost. But that is not to say someone who's only focus is the political area doesn't have something to say even if it is in a trolling way.
That is true, I assume that everyone is, was or wants to be a BMW enthusiast and while we all have very different opinions this is a commonality.
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      10-19-2016, 02:32 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnyCanuck View Post
Why can you not simply acknowledge that there are valid reasons to vote Democrat? What about protecting gay marriage, ending the death penalty, maintaining a woman's right to choose? If you believe in those things, why would you want to see another conservative on the Supreme Court? If you're employed in trade dependent industry, why would you want to elect someone who threatens your livelihood? If you're in the military and you feel that the Democrats will be more reasonable in your deployment (I'm not making a point that they are or aren't ... but rather if it's what you think), then why would you vote for Trump?

Your closed mindedness is shockingly unbelievable ... even for bimmerpost. None of what I am saying is partisan, just obvious.
None of those social issues, or really any social issues, will change no matter who is president.

The smart vote for policies, the others vote for social issues.
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      10-19-2016, 02:33 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by jgoens View Post
It's easy to see who the political trolls are--you look at their public profile and statistics and see where else they post. You can see if they have interest in any other area of Bimmerpost. But that is not to say someone who's only focus is the political area doesn't have something to say even if it is in a trolling way.
That is true, I assume that everyone is, was or wants to be a BMW enthusiast and while we all have very different opinions this is a commonality.
I'm only here because there aren't many good e90 threads and the audi forum sucks. Although there was a thread today about how to Rev match your automatic on e90post...
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      10-19-2016, 02:34 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by JohnnyCanuck View Post
Seriously, you'll miss threads filled with people calling each other "stupid" or "tards" or "racist", etc?

The entire host of threads are filled with narrow mindedness, abusiveness, intolerance, hatred, and otherwise boorish behaviour that would never be acceptable anywhere without the anonymity provided by these boards. Despite that, I occasionally get dragged in by some outrageously inanae post and feel compelled to comment (and then have poster's remorse). Good riddance to the subject, good riddance to the idiotic commentary, good riddance to the moronic trolling and baiting ... good riddance to it all.
Sounds like Johnny boy needs to change his tampon
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      10-19-2016, 02:35 PM   #39
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Protecting gay marriage? Where have you been?
Her staff say she's still against it in an email. That and she wants to void Catholicism as Catholics presently know it.
Good stuff.
This is not what she is officially saying. I don't know what the E-mail says or if it is real.


https://www.hillaryclinton.com/issues/lgbt-equality/
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      10-19-2016, 02:35 PM   #40
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Sounds like Johnny boy needs to change his tampon
Well, better than being scared of a woman.
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      10-19-2016, 02:37 PM   #41
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I'm only here because there aren't many good e90 threads and the audi forum sucks. Although there was a thread today about how to Rev match your automatic on e90post...
Oh don't worry I know your not a political troll...but you have to let me know when the trolling heats up over in e90post...do miss those 328 vs 335 battles.
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      10-19-2016, 02:39 PM   #42
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Oh don't worry I know your not a political troll...but you have to let me know when the trolling heats up over in e90post...do miss those 328 vs 335 battles.
Not as much as 335 vs m3
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      10-19-2016, 02:41 PM   #43
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None of those social issues, or really any social issues, will change no matter who is president.

The smart vote for policies, the others vote for social issues.
They change because of the composition of the Supreme Court. Your Supreme Court is highly political and cleaves down social and partisan lines. That makes it a relevant voting consideration.
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      10-19-2016, 02:41 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnyCanuck View Post
Why can you not simply acknowledge that there are valid reasons to vote Democrat? What about protecting gay marriage, ending the death penalty, maintaining a woman's right to choose? If you believe in those things, why would you want to see another conservative on the Supreme Court? If you're employed in trade dependent industry, why would you want to elect someone who threatens your livelihood? If you're in the military and you feel that the Democrats will be more reasonable in your deployment (I'm not making a point that they are or aren't ... but rather if it's what you think), then why would you vote for Trump?

Your closed mindedness is shockingly unbelievable ... even for bimmerpost. None of what I am saying is partisan, just obvious.
Because there ARE NO GOOD REASONS

Everything you try to use as a "Good Reason" is predicated on government solutions to problems created by government in the first place.

A vote for Clinton is no different than advocating that the solution to alcoholism is to take another drink
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