[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by Mr.5

I completely agree with you ssabripo!
There is no "proof" that the JB3 does not do what it is advertised to do.

It's supposed to control timing via CPS offsetting. At least according to Terry until scalbert's findings. And it doesn't. This has not been confirmed/confesssed by Terry. The reasoning being not offering this feature isn't relevant at this point. For all I know, he can claim that the jb3 can in fact CPS offset but the feature just isn't enabled. Doesn't matter. It's supposed to. And it doesn't.

Shiv

ps. Looks like Mr.5 deleted his post.

[ssabripo]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

Until scalbert's recent initial bench testing, CPS offseting was believed (and advertised) to be a vital aspect of JB3 functionality. Recent findings have proven this to not be the case. Terry confirmed these findings despite advertising and statements made as recently as two months ago that would suggest otherwise.

Shiv

Originally Posted by RiXst3r

All that was proven is that the jb3 does not have CPS offset timing control, as originally stated.

The jb3 marketing materials said that it did, but after these tests showed that it did NOT, BMS said that CPS offset timing control was taken off just before launch, and the marketing materials were not updated.

correct, and If I read this thread correctly, the folks on the other site clearly stated that they had removed this "marketing" from their official BMS marketing materials, and that only **********s still had that material still showing.

or are we talking about something else here?

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by ssabripo

correct, and If I read this thread correctly, the folks on the other site clearly stated that they had removed this "marketing" from their official BMS marketing materials, and that only **********s still had that material still showing.

or are we talking about something else here?

The CPS offset feature was on the BMS website until just a couple of weeks ago. Up until scalbert's findings were published. Now it has been removed. It was the first feature listed in the list of features. So it's probably important.

Doesn't matter at this point. People can believe what they want to believe about the integrity of these past and future claims. What will matter if there is no form of active timing control whatsoever. What will happen then?

Shiv

[ssabripo]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

The CPS offset feature was on the BMS website until just a couple of weeks ago. Up until scalbert's findings were published. Now it has been removed. It was the first feature listed in the list of features. So it's probably important.

hmm....i'm going thru my cache, and reading the dates on the posts in this thread and over there, and it seems to be that it a lot longer than 2 weeks.

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

Doesn't matter at this point. People can believe what they want to believe about the integrity of these claims. What will matter if there is no form of active timing control whatsoever. What will happen then?

Shiv

if at the end of the day, it is proven unequivocally that there is no timing control on the JB3 whatsoever, after BMS and their crew has adamantly stated that there most definitely is, then believe me, I will be the First to call it out. I'm an equal opportunity "keep vendors in check" asshole

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by ssabripo

if at the end of the day, it is proven unequivocally that there is no timing control on the JB3 whatsoever, after BMS and their crew has adamantly stated that there most definitely is, then believe me, I will be the First to call it out. I'm an equal opportunity "keep vendors in check" asshole

[Ruff Rider]

"If I knew in early 2007 what I know now Vishnu would not be in business."

From Terry on N54

What does it mean?

[ssabripo]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

for now, the CPS issue was determined in the marketing material, and that's about it. There is still absolutely no evidence that Timing control is not available in the JB3, but rather, that Scalbert's bench testing has not been able to trace it on the typical I/O's, etc.

the saga continues.....

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by Ruff Rider

"If I knew in early 2007 what I know now Vishnu would not be in business."

From Terry on N54

What does it mean?

Don't know what it means but it sure sounds foreboding.

Originally Posted by ssabripo

for now, the CPS issue was determined in the marketing material, and that's about it. There is still absolutely no evidence that Timing control is not available in the JB3, but rather, that Scalbert's bench testing has not been able to trace it on the typical I/O's, etc.

the saga continues.....

There's only one way to actually control timing (or timing offset) with the finite I/O offered in the JB3. And that is by CPS offsetting. It is the ONLY way to directly and repeatably induce the desired amount of timing offset. There is no other way. Simple as that. IAT adjustments may influence timing (not control it) but that has also been proven to not be implemented (and confirmed by Terry). TMAP signal adjustments won't control timing anymore than allowing the ECU to see higher boost and react by retarding timing to the degree it deems necessary. But again, this is not "control". And there has been no evidence of that either.

Terry's evidence that the JB3 does, in fact, implement some form of timing control is his claim that the tune wouldn't "work" without it. This is not true. I can zero out the timing map in the PROcede and the tune wont be obviously different. Maybe a little more inconsistent. But that's it. The consequences of that approach aren't obvious from the passenger seat.

Shiv

[astris]

Originally Posted by Ruff Rider

"If I knew in early 2007 what I know now Vishnu would not be in business."

From Terry on N54

What does it mean?

To have any knowledge in 2007 he would have had to start pumping Shiv for info in 2006. lol.

[DrDomer]

Umm... Yeah... He did...

Originally Posted by astris

To have any knowledge in 2007 he would have had to start pumping Shiv for info in 2006. lol.

[Mr. 5]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

Doesn't matter at this point. People can believe what they want to believe about the integrity of these past and future claims. What will matter if there is no form of active timing control whatsoever. What will happen then?

Shiv

You're pretty funny with these rhetorical questions.

[lawdude]

Originally Posted by Ruff Rider

"If I knew in early 2007 what I know now Vishnu would not be in business."

From Terry on N54

What does it mean?

It means the same thing as when a preacher takes off his watch at the beginning of the sermon and puts it on the pulpit where he can easily see it -- it don't mean nuthin'.

[sambonator]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

Sambonator,
Since we're all communicating cross-site, can u ask Terry why he was talking about CPS offset as one of his user adjustable parameters as recently as 2 months ago (see link posted on previous page)?

Because according to his most recent claims, CPS offsetting was omitted in favor of something "better" before the JB3 ever went into production.

Shiv

I think I know what he'll say... probably that he kept up the CPS offset facade "alive" in order to thwart the competition from learning the secrets of the JB3. Except for the initial marketing material, he never clearly states that the JB3 uses CPS offsets.

I make this assumption due to his statement here:

Originally Posted by Terry @ BMS

...there are also several other companies I know of working on N54 tuning, that I have seen reading this thread, and I certainly don't want to help them along any more than needed. :drinking:

If he learned that CPS offset or any kind of timing adjustment isn't necessary, well, then maybe that's the real secret. Maybe he discovered that the DME always rides the edge between preignition/detonation and just enough timing retard. Maybe he learned that after it determines the proper timing, it will build itself a proper table around it so there there is always enough timing retard available for the engine to utilize... that it always builds itself this safety margin, making CPS offsets redundant.

Or maybe there is something else going on with the TMAP sensor we're not aware of... I just don't know.

Anyway, I'm looking forward to further test results from Scalbert!

[Garissimo]

Originally Posted by ssabripo

hmm....i'm going thru my cache, and reading the dates on the posts in this thread and over there, and it seems to be that it a lot longer than 2 weeks.

+1 Google's cache for BMS's JB3 page, dated December 22nd 2008, EIGHT DAYS BEFORE scalbert posted his results, mentions absolutely nothing about timing control using CPS. I maintain that Shiv is full of crap on this one, unless he can prove otherwise.

EDIT: Link if you want to see for yourself:

http://209.85.173.132/search?q=cache...lnk&cd=1&gl=us

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by Garissimo

+1 Google's cache for BMS's JB3 page, dated December 22nd 2008, EIGHT DAYS BEFORE scalbert posted his results, mentions absolutely nothing about timing control using CPS. I maintain that Shiv is full of crap on this one, unless he can prove otherwise.

He got rid of the word "offset" and just left it as crank position And the news of him not controlling timing was floated around as early as December 5th. I even mentioned it at the Taste Test day.

Shiv

[Garissimo]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

He got rid of the word "offset" and just put CPS input And the news of him not controlling timing was floated around as early as December 5th. I even mentioned it at the Taste Test day.

Shiv

Weaksauce. How is anyone supposed to take you seriously when you can't back up half the claims you make?

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by Garissimo

Weaksauce. How is anyone supposed to take you seriously when you can't back up half the claims you make?

My claims?

You know what? Don't worry about it. It's all going to be a moot point soon enough.

Shiv

[Garissimo]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

My claims? lol

Just a few posts ago, you accused BMS of advertising CPS control on their JB3 page, and then pulling that claim 2 weeks ago in response to scalbert's tests. That's what I'm referring to. Am I wrong? If so, I'll happily retract.

[NM_BMW]

The high school bickering should stop in such a great thread. I can't wait till the road and dyno tests are done. Scalbert is this pushing you to get them done quicker?

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by Garissimo

Just a few posts ago, you accused BMS of advertising CPS control on their JB3 page, and then pulling that claim 2 weeks ago in response to scalbert's tests. That's what I'm referring to. Am I wrong? If so, I'll happily retract.

How far can that cache go back? Timing "offset" was indeed a claim.

However, dwelling on this little point is silly as Terry was posting about Timing/CPS offset as recently as November in his forum. The posts are still there. I've already posted the links. No one responded to them.

Shiv

[Septro]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

How far can that cache go back? Timing "offset" was indeed a claim.

However, dwelling on this little point is silly as Terry was posting about Timing/CPS offset as recently as November in his forum. The posts are still there. I've already posted the links. No one responded to them.

Shiv

Shiv - you are like the crazy uncle that everyone loves to hate or hate to love. Why don't you dissect yourself from attempting to discredit others since it makes you look extremely opportunistic. If I were you I would stick to technical commentary and nothing else. Otherwise you'll continue down this road of accusing someone of using NOS and then getting p@wn3d by the truth and backpeddaling as usual or misrepresenting customer record runs by removing seats and driving the car yourself. And that's just the stuff you did within the last month.

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by Septro

Shiv - you are like the crazy uncle that everyone loves to hate or hate to love. Why don't you dissect yourself from attempting to discredit others since it makes you look extremely opportunistic. If I were you I would stick to technical commentary and nothing else. Otherwise you'll continue down this road of accusing someone of using NOS and then getting p@wn3d by the truth and backpeddaling as usual or misrepresenting customer record runs by removing seats and driving the car yourself. And that's just the stuff you did within the last month.

I look forward to your input once all the testing is complete and the results are posted. I'll even take opportunity to summaries it, a la cliff notes, for those like yourself who aren't technically savvy.

Uncle Shiv